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[notaskwid]

You reap what you sow I guess.

 

[Beer Monkey]

In before "whataboutism".

It really is, though.

Are you arguing that it's OK for American citizens to help others interfere in our elections?

Do you see that as something different?

Hint: We aren't going to impeach Russia. But we might impeach or prosecute our citizens who helped them, nor could we claim moral outrage of other countries did the same for citizens of theirs who helped us.

 

[fauxtrot]

 

[Balphon]

Well, yeah.

Hell, the CIA backed a coup in Guatemala on behalf of Chiquita.

 

[ErMerGerd]

You reap what you sow I guess.

Haha. My thoughts exactly.

Karma's a bitch.

*maybe I should clarify. This isn't meant as in 'haha! That's what you get!' I live here. This sucks. And it's fucking terrifying how so many don't care that we've done it, or that we seem to now be on the recieving end.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

It's good to know the standard for meddling but your tone was extremely dismissive, which is jarring considering we all know the US has done incredibly heinous shit to instil a leader they like.

Assassinations and breeding civil wars which led to the deaths of tens if not hundreds of thousands of people is a little worse than Russia spamming the internet with fake news.

In the Mayan Genocide alone more than 160k people died

 

[Oersted]

In before "whataboutism".

Thanks for pointing out how this will get used, instead of coming to the correct conclusion that it is wrong, no matter who does it and where.

 

[SpaceCadetKeon]

That doesn't mean I deserve to suffer a Donald Trump presidency. I never asked for any of this.

 

[UberTag]

It is known. They've been doing it for decades, especially in South America. Anyone who doesn't believe this is kidding themselves and needs to read a book or two.

It may not have reviewed well but I still enjoyed watching Our Brand is Crisis. Sandra Bullock and Billy Bob Thornton were both solid.

 

[Real Hero]

Indeed. But how many of them have led to an election victory of an idiot?

Trump is a million times better than some of the people america has supported in other countries.

 

[Widdle Puppy]

I don't think they "decided" the US election... but they did directly meddle and moved the needle a little bit, yes?

I don't disagree that the US is not innocent in doing similar things.

Yes, I agree. They moved it a little bit.

 

[jellies_two]

And? What is the point of making a list?

Is the point That there is some score and USA owes Russia (of all countries!) and should look the other way until the score is evened up?

Facts are that if a country identifies interference It should do its utmost to stamp it out. Anyone making lists of past election meddling recognizes it isn't right so should support slapping around putin and imprisoning any American that helped him.

 

[BocoDragon]

I've known about America's meddling for decades.

But it doesn't mean I just chuckle and say "good" when it happens to America. The undermining of democracy in a superpower is kinda a scary portent for all of us.

Karma? Sure. It still isn't good for any of us.

Yes, I agree. They moved it a little bit.

Fair enough then.

 

[Maple-Tech]

Indeed. But how many of them have led to an election victory of an idiot?

A lot of them have led to dictatorships, such as chile, so we're worse.

 

[cheezcake]

In the Mayan Genocide alone more than 160k people died

I was hesitant to state numbers because I only have some knowledge on the topic so I was conservative.

I can't fucking believe the callousness people are disregarding this with. "Ok", ugh.

 

[Fancyarcher]

I've known about America's meddling for decades.

But it doesn't mean I just chuckle and say "good" when it happens to America. The undermining of democracy in a superpower is kinda a scary portent for all of us.

Karma? Sure. It still isn't good for any of us.

Not to mention that many innocent bystanders didn't ask for this. A lot of these election interference were done behind the scene / in secret, without people knowing of such things, because politicians are generally corrupt.

 

[Drencrom]

It was just a matter of time until Americans would eventually meddle in their own elections.

 

[ponpo]

No surprises here. And presumably no more or no less than any other country would have done in the same time period if they were in the US's shoes post-WW2.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

And? What is the point of making a list?

Is the point That there is some score and USA owes Russia (of all countries!) and should look the other way until the score is evened up?

Facts are that if a country identifies interference It should do its utmost to stamp it out. Anyone making lists of past election meddling recognizes it isn't right ao should support slapping around putin and imprisoning any American that helped him.

Thats fine and all and good luck with that.

Putin will be long gone and the US will keep on intervening in other countries tho, and every single time it will act like it has the moral high ground and its citizens will allow those henious things to continue to be done in their names.

 

[Trey]

All that karma just for us to still attempt to control other countries by subterfuge and implied or direct force.

 

[Beer Monkey]

A lot of them have led to dictatorships, such as chile, so we're worse.

So is your argument that American citizens who helped Russia do this to us are not guilty of crimes?

This is exactly 'whataboutism'.

Our country can be guilty of crimes against other nations. Prosecute us.

We aren't prosecuting Russia. We are prosecuting Americans who aided them. Selling out our democracy.

There's nothing hypocritical about that.

 

[Oersted]

A lot of them have led to dictatorships, such as chile, so we're worse.

You are not responsible for the actions of your country in the past, the good and the bad. Your responsibility is to learn from the past and be better.


You want to be better, right?

 

[cheezcake]

Not to mention that many innocent bystanders didn't ask for this. A lot of these election interference were done behind the scene / without people knowing of such things, because politicians are generally corrupt.

I feel schadenfreude when hypocrites in here casually dismiss what the US has done to other countries while whining about Russia and Trump, doesn't mean I'm happy that Russia meddled in the US election.

 

[Xe4]

I don't think anyone would disagree.

It doesn't mean that the Russia hacks were ok, and anyone who brings up America's interference in other countries elections as a response to that problem is absolutely playing whataboutism.

It is absolutely possible to criticize America meddling in other elections while simultaneously being worried about other countries meddling in ours. Anyone going "hurr durr karma" is just being an asshole is what I'm getting at.

 

[TheUzukiLives]

Trump is a million times better than some of the people america has supported in other countries.

Multiplying a negative with an negative still makes it a negative.

Not that we don't deserve, but knowing that 45 is under the thumb of a Semi-dictator and has access to info that would fuck over a lot of important things and people isn't gonna make the situation better.

 

[Principate]

Trump is a million times better than some of the people america has supported in other countries.

Very true but let's not sugar coat America's history and consequences of the it's government's decisons during it's hegemony of the world.

Especially when the propaganda and patriotism is so strong within the country.

It is very important to note.

 

[cheezcake]

So is your argument that American citizens who helped Russia do this to us are not guilty of crimes?

Bruh where did you even get this from in that post?

 

[Anticol]

I thought the US were the good guys, I am glad Trump is their president.

 

[Chichikov]

Iceland...? When? Why?

During the cold war.
It's a strategically important and it remained relatively open to the USSR.
Both the US and and the USSR messed with Icelandic politics a whole lot during the 50s and 60s.

It really is, though.

Are you arguing that it's OK for American citizens to help others interfere in our elections?

Do you see that as something different?

Hint: We aren't going to impeach Russia. But we might impeach or prosecute our citizens who helped them, nor could we claim moral outrage of other countries did the same for citizens of theirs who helped us.

It would be if anyone would say "and that's the reason why Russian meddling in US elections is okay". But I don't see anyone here saying that.

I still think it's important to educate or remind people of those facts, with the hope that maybe being on the receiving end of such crap, they'll re-think American foreign policies around these issues.
And honestly, most of those interventions hurt American long term interests, even ignoring morality and legality, it's not something that was able to produce amazing results for the country and its citizens.

 

[Fancyarcher]

Thats fine and all and good luck with that.

Putin will be long gone and the US will keep on intervening in other countries tho, and every single time it will act like it has the moral high ground and its citizens will allow those henious things to continue to be done in their names.

I'd imagine, most citizens probably won't even know the interventions until after their done, and if they do, many won't care / won't like it because they'd rather the country not get involved with Foreign affairs, but many of those who are powerful don't care.

I feel schadenfreude when hypocrites in here casually dismiss what the US has done to other countries while whining about Russia and Trump, doesn't mean I'm happy that Russia meddled in the US election.

I didn't dismiss what the U.S. did at all, it's just people bringing up "they deserve it", are being a bit careless / ignorant if you ask me.

 

[Beer Monkey]

I feel schadenfreude when hypocrites in here casually dismiss what the US has done to other countries while whining about Russia and Trump, doesn't mean I'm happy that Russia meddled in the US election.

Can you admit there's a difference? This is being used to justify treason.

It would be if anyone would say "and that's the reason why Russian meddling in US elections is okay". But I don't see anyone here saying that.

I think that's the implication. Which is pure 'whataboutism'. Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[Robot Pants]

You reap what you sow I guess.

You pig.

 

[cheezcake]

Can you admit there's a difference? This is being used to justify treason.

In this thread, who is using it to justify treason?

 

[Any Questions]

This is off topic but anybody here on GAF a 911 truther?

Have been researching and there are questions which puzzle me.

 

[Beer Monkey]

This is off topic but anybody here on GAF a 911 truther?

Have been researching and there are questions which puzzle me.

There once was a whole thread which ran for well over a decade.

In this thread, who is using it to justify treason?

"Trump is a million times better than some of the people america has supported in other countries."

 

[daTRUballin]

I think the most surprising thing about this is that a major US news channel like CNN reported on this.

 

[Zap Rowsdower]

This is off topic but anybody here on GAF a 911 truther?

Have been researching and there are questions which puzzle me.

If its a question of why they exist, a major reason is a lot of them can't accept the fact that the world is a chaotic, senseless place. Also the delusional feeling of superiority because they think they know better than all the "sheep".

 

[BocoDragon]

There once was a whole thread which ran for well over a decade.

Apparently that thread is deleted now.

And I presume we still can't debate 9/11 trutherism outside of it.

I'm guessing it's just a banned topic on here...

 

[Sr Kitsune]

Is this really news? I thought this was common knowledge, unless they don't teach this in America or something.

The CIA admitted this long ago. And it was obvious in the countries that suffered from this like in Chile.

The press should be using this, kind of "we the 'good' guys did it, do you think Russia wouldn't even try".

 

[cheezcake]

You are not responsible for the actions of your country in the past, the good and the bad. Your responsibility is to learn from the past and be better.


You want to be better, right?

No taking responsibility is the best way to combat this shit happening. Right now your government does some heinous shit, no one knows or understands the scope of it til ten years later, then everyone has this attitude 'well I'm not responsible'. Nothing happens to those involved. People forget. Rinse and repeat.

 

[Xe4]

Just FYI, this is just interfering in an election, not coup's or anything. So the stuff in Chile or Guatemala or Iran doesn't count towards the total.

Here's an interview with Don Levin, who's numbers this graph is based on:

SHAPIRO: How often do other countries like Russia, for example, try to alter the outcome of elections as compared to the United States?

LEVIN: Well, for my dataset, the United States is the most common user of this technique. Russia or the Soviet Union since 1945 has used it half as much. My estimate has been 36 cases between 1946 to 2000. We know also that the Chinese have used this technique and the Venezuelans when the late Hugo Chavez was still in power in Venezuela and other countries.

SHAPIRO: The U.S. is arguably more vocal than any other country about trying to promote democracy and democratic values around the world. Does this strike you as conflicting with that message?

LEVIN: It depends upon if we are assisting pro-democratic side - could be like in the case of Slobodan Milosevic that I talked about earlier. I believe that that could be helpful for democracy. If it helps less-nicer candidates or parties, then naturally it can be less helpful.

http://www.npr.org/2016/12/22/506625913/database-tracks-history-of-u-s-meddling-in-foreign-elections

And here's an editorial he wrote before the election:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ctions-does-it-matter/?utm_term=.adcf330f0b8b

 

[Dirtyshubb]

Its good to see this sort of information be reported on, it may be seen as common knowledge to some but to many they have no idea.

Hopefully the knowledge that Americas 'meddling' has caused millions of deaths (either directly or indirectly) will help people think differently about the west's global role.

 

[Chichikov]

I think that's the implication. Which is pure 'whataboutism'. Maybe I'm wrong.

Here's the way I look at it - it's important part of American and world history that sadly way too many Americans don't know or don't know enough about. I think understanding that part history is critical to your ability to understand the modern world.

We don't talk about it enough, I welcome any opportunity to raise awareness for this. Plus people who are persuaded by such whataboutism are probably predisposed to support Trump through pretty much hell, high water and a murder on 5th avenue. Though I would imagine such arguments would be unpersuasive to most Americans, even (or maybe even especially) conservatives.

p.s.
Yeah, not sure what they're talking about in regards of the UK.
I'm not doubting it, it wouldn't shock me if true but I consider myself pretty well read on American foreign policy and I'm drawing a blank.

 

[cheezcake]

"Trump is a million times better than some of the people america has supported in other countries."

What part of this sentence is justifying treason? I agree with it, and I think objectively it's the truth. Trump isn't commuting genocide right now it's not a very high bar.

I still believe Trump and co committed treasonous acts.

 

[FlutterPuffs]

Is this really news? I thought this was common knowledge, unless they don't teach this in America or something.

The CIA admitted this long ago. And it was obvious in the countries that suffered from this like in Chile.

The press should be using this, kind of "we the 'good' guys did it, do you think Russia wouldn't even try".

Not everyone knows this. We do, because we are nerds.

Go to the street and ask most random people you meet and they will

Spoiler

think you're crazy and call the cops on you

most likely be surprised with this fact.

 

[Cow Mengde]

You reap what you sow.

Look at it this way, if Trump destroys the US, it can't meddle in the election of other countries around the world anymore. He would retroactively viewed as a hero to the rest of the world.

 

[*Splinter]

So is CNN trying to normalise this or what? "Look! It happens all the time!" That's the only implication I'm getting here, and it's a fucking stupid one.

If other countries are having their elections meddled in, that's a problem for those countries to detect and deal with. Just as the US should be dealing with Russia's potential meddling in their election.

 

[cheezcake]

Is this really news? I thought this was common knowledge, unless they don't teach this in America or something.

The CIA admitted this long ago. And it was obvious in the countries that suffered from this like in Chile.

The press should be using this, kind of "we the 'good' guys did it, do you think Russia wouldn't even try".

Dude they don't even admit they bombed their own people in their history lessons and gloss over a chunk of that whole slavery thing.

 

[FlutterPuffs]

You reap what you sow.

Look at it this way, if Trump destroys the US, it can't meddle in the election of other countries around the world anymore. He would retroactively viewed as a hero to the rest of the world.

Yes, i'm sure if his meddling caused the US economy to go bust and takes down a lot of countries along with it he will be considered a hero.

There's many reasons why people outside of the US wants Trump out too. His actions can have rippling effects that can affect other nations.

 

[PBalfredo]

You reap what you sow.

Look at it this way, if Trump destroys the US, it can't meddle in the election of other countries around the world anymore. He would retroactively viewed as a hero to the rest of the world.

Yes, because Trump will surely be a net gain for the rest of the world.

Enjoy your new coastlines, by the way.