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Conservative lawmakers and faith groups seek exemptions after same-sex ruling

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GK86

Homeland Security Fail
Link.


Within hours of the Supreme Court decision legalizing same-sex marriage, an array of conservatives including the governors of Texas and Louisiana and religious groups called for stronger legal protections for those who want to avoid any involvement in same-sex marriage, like catering a gay wedding or providing school housing to gay couples, based on religious beliefs.

They demanded establishing clear religious exemptions from discrimination laws, tax penalties or other government regulations for individuals, businesses and religious-affiliated institutions wishing to avoid endorsing such marriages.

Gov. Greg Abbott of Texas, a Republican, issued a directive to state agencies saying that employees should not be penalized for refusing to act in violation of their beliefs. “No Texan is required by the Supreme Court’s decision to act contrary to his or her religious beliefs regarding marriage,” he said in a statement.

Gov. Bobby Jindal of Louisiana, a Republican candidate for president, warned that the court decision “will pave the way for an all-out assault against the religious freedom rights of Christians who disagree.”

Jim Daly, the president of Focus on the Family, a prominent conservative Christian group based in Colorado Springs, said he was worried that Christians would be subjected to “prejudice and persecution” if they stood against same-sex marriage. He suggested that a variety of issues were likely to be litigated, including whether the ruling would force Christian universities to house same-sex couples in dorms for married students and whether cake makers and florists would have to work same-sex weddings.

“To me it’s a mind-boggling maze of treacherous future court cases,” Mr. Daly said.

Justices on both sides of the issue seemed to anticipate the battles ahead and address them.

In his majority opinion, Justice Anthony M. Kennedy stressed that individuals were free to defend traditional beliefs about marriage, but he played down any potential conflicts, writing, “The First Amendment ensures that religious organizations and persons are given proper protection as they seek to teach the principles that are so fulfilling and so central to their lives and faiths.”

But Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr., dissenting, wrote, “Hard questions arise when people of faith exercise religion in ways that may be seen to conflict with the new right to same-sex marriage — when, for example, a religious college provides married student housing only to opposite-sex married couples, or a religious adoption agency declines to place children with same-sex married couples.”

“There is little doubt that these and similar questions will soon be before this Court,” he wrote, adding, “Unfortunately, people of faith can take no comfort in the treatment they receive from the majority today.”

In a telephone news conference on Friday, Archbishop William E. Lori of Baltimore, the chairman of the religious liberty committee of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, said Justice Kennedy’s majority opinion made “a nod in the direction of religious liberty, but not enough of one.”

“Of course we retain the right to think what we want and say what we want and preach what we want about marriage,” he said.

“But the free exercise of religion means we have the right,” he continued, “to operate our ministries and to live our lives according to the truth about marriage without fear of being silenced or penalized or losing our tax exemption or losing our ability to serve the common good.”


“We serve millions of people every day, and we do it well, we do it lovingly and it would be a shame to see it jeopardized, to see it swallowed up in this decision,” he said.

Religious groups that continue to oppose same-sex marriage include conservative evangelical churches (like the Southern Baptist Church), the Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox churches, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (known better as the Mormon Church), Orthodox Judaism and Islam. Many other religious groups support same-sex marriage, as do countless members of the groups that oppose it.

Gay rights advocates argue that religious institutions are already well protected by the First Amendment; no church can be forced to hire a gay pastor and no pastor can be forced to preside at a same-sex wedding. But they balk at permitting discrimination against gay people or couples by businesses that serve the public or by government-funded entities like foster care agencies.

“Same-sex couples exercising their constitutional freedom to marry should not be shunned by commercial businesses for any reason,” said Susan Sommer, the director of constitutional litigation for Lambda Legal, a gay rights group.

Early tests of religious rights and discrimination may come in the few states, mainly in the South, where some county clerks have said they will not issue same-sex marriage licenses. In North Carolina, where several county magistrates resigned last fall rather than abet same-sex marriages, a law has been passed to allow such refusals.

The federal government and about 20 states have versions in place of the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, which requires courts to balance possible infringements on religious beliefs against compelling state interests. The laws were originally intended to protect religious minorities against inadvertent discrimination — just this month under the federal law, a Sikh college student won the right to keep his long hair and turban while participating in R.O.T.C.

But recently proposed versions, including the original bill in Indiana and one that was vetoed by the governor of Arizona in 2014 after a similar uproar, seem intended to authorize discrimination against gay people by businesses, rights groups said. Civil rights groups also became more wary of such laws last year when the Supreme Court, in the Hobby Lobby case, said a closely held private corporation could in effect have religious beliefs.

This month, in anticipation of the marriage ruling, Senator Mike Lee, Republican of Utah, and Representative Raul Labrador, Republican of Idaho, introduced the First Amendment Defense Act, which would push federal law far beyond the existing religious protections. Sure to be strongly opposed by civil rights groups and most Democrats, the bill would prohibit federal officials from penalizing individuals, businesses, charities or schools for actions based on a conviction that marriage is between a man and a woman.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I mean, your church doesn't want to perform same sex marriage, more power to you, no-one's ever suggested otherwise I don't think

Businesses? Fuck off though
 
I mean, your church doesn't want to perform same sex marriage, more power to you, no-one's ever suggested otherwise I don't think

Businesses? Fuck off though

This is pretty much how I feel as well. You have a right to your religious belief, but you do not have a right to operate a public business. As such, you can be compelled do things as a business that might go against your personal beliefs.
 
Gov. Greg Abbott of Texas, a Republican, issued a directive to state agencies saying that employees should not be penalized for refusing to act in violation of their beliefs. “No Texan is required by the Supreme Court’s decision to act contrary to his or her religious beliefs regarding marriage,” he said in a statement.
If your job is to issue marriage licenses for the state, then yes, you're absolutely required to do it. Otherwise you better get a new job.

Cretins.
 

Rich!

Member
As independent churches...sure. We can go elsewhere.

Everything else? Fuuuuuuck riiiiight off.

(im in the UK so it's not an issue. Hell, half of the people in my office are gay. But come on america, dont let these guys fuck you over!)
 

Two Words

Member
Churches can start denying stuff like this when they start paying taxes. I dont want them essentially acting as a government subsidized affiliation without being held to public standards.
 
If your job is to issue marriage licenses for the state, then yes, you're absolutely required to do it. Otherwise you better get a new job.

Cretins.

Unfortunately, some states are passing laws that allow magistrates to opt-out of issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples, or even any couple that "violates their religious beliefs". I know NC passed one pretty recently.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
I can sympathize with private businesses. Not because I agree with their stance but because it's a privately owned business.

It falls apart when you apply it to any other discriminatory policy though. Hell, you don't even need to make it about not serving black people, the analogy that fits almost perfectly is not serving interracial couples
 

Wilsongt

Member
I am sure most gays aren't going to want to get married in a church in the first place.

However, business should not get an exemption. You run a business to serve everyone. Don't want to provide goods and services because you're a hateful bigot? Get the fuck out of the business world.
 

platocplx

Member
I mean, your church doesn't want to perform same sex marriage, more power to you, no-one's ever suggested otherwise I don't think

Businesses? Fuck off though
Yep. The state has no right to stop it. Religious edicts sure dont marry people.

People have non-religious ceremonies all time
time with the justice if the peace. Marriage and religion isnt coupled together
 
Unfortunately, some states are passing laws that allow magistrates to opt-out of issuing marriage licenses to same-sex couples, or even any couple that "violates their religious beliefs". I know NC passed one pretty recently.

Just like some pharmacists that won't fill prescriptions for birth control because it is against their beliefs.
 
I mean, your church doesn't want to perform same sex marriage, more power to you, no-one's ever suggested otherwise I don't think

Businesses? Fuck off though

See. This is the problem I have. Why should businesses be any different? And before any body brings it up (again), I'm black, and would be willing to have the same standard applied to black people.

In my opinion, if you're not the only business offering a particular service in an area, you should be able to serve who you like. The idea you can't control who enters your business strikes me as very un-American.
 

Armaros

Member
Nope. Churches shouldn't get a pass either.

Seperation of Church and State works both ways.

See. This is the problem I have. Why should businesses be any different? And before any body brings it up (again), I'm black, and would be willing to have the same standard applied to black people.

In my opinion, if you're not the only business offering a particular service in an area, you should be able to serve who you like. The idea you can't control who enters your business strikes me as very un-American.


So you want Segregation? Because these laws are directly against Segregation... and the discrimination from that era.

Ifs fine and dandy for your life that you can avoid the business that discriminate. Not everyone else can.
 
See. This is the problem I have. Why should businesses be any different? And before any body brings it up (again), I'm black, and would be willing to have the same standard applied to black people.

In my opinion, if you're not the only business offering a particular service in an area, you should be able to serve who you like. The idea you can't control who enters your business strikes me as very un-American.

Because as a society we should teach acceptance and not hate.

fuck Bigots.

Also taxes and public stuff.
 
Bobby Jindal as an Indian atheist born a Buddhist pretending to be a hardcore Catholic and white might be the most embarrassing political saga in America right now and that's saying something.
 
See. This is the problem I have. Why should businesses be any different? And before any body brings it up (again), I'm black, and would be willing to have the same standard applied to black people.

In my opinion, if you're not the only business offering a particular service in an area, you should be able to serve who you like. The idea you can't control who enters your business strikes me as very un-American.

Pretty much how I see it. You're in business to make money, shutting out customers defeats the purpose. I can respect other opinions as well as I'm pretty divided on this myself.

All I ask is a sign outside to show what a pos bigot you are so I can take my money elsewhere.
 
See. This is the problem I have. Why should businesses be any different? And before any body brings it up (again), I'm black, and would be willing to have the same standard applied to black people.

In my opinion, if you're not the only business offering a particular service in an area, you should be able to serve who you like. The idea you can't control who enters your business strikes me as very un-American.

How on Earth would that be enforceable? Also, I can't believe you're calling for a return to Jim Crow styled accommodations...

civil-rights-movement-3.jpg


This? Really?

WeWashForWhitePeople.jpg
 

Armaros

Member
Pretty much how I see it. You're in business to make money, shutting out customers defeats the purpose. I can respect other opinions as well as I'm pretty divided on this myself.

All I ask is a sign outside to show what a pos bigot you are so I can take my money elsewhere.

Yeah, we had a period of time with all of that.

Its called Jim Crow, Segregation and Separate but equal.

It doesn't work.
 
Nope. Churches shouldn't get a pass either.

Churches can marry whomever they wish to gay or otherwise. Most of these more conservative Christian churches would not marry a heterosexual couple that lived together before marriage or were openly sexually active before marriage if they were not repentant of it and if they didn't talk with the pastor about it first either.

Why would a gay couple want to be married in a conservative Christian church anyway? Other than to attract attention there are plenty of churches that allow it.

There is no right to discriminate against anyone for a business purpose though.
 

Matty77

Member
Churches can start denying stuff like this when they start paying taxes. I dont want them essentially acting as a government subsidized affiliation without being held to public standards.
This. I have felt this way for awhile not directly involving this issue, but this is a good example. Seperation of church and state. They can do whatever they want but not with tax exempt or state aid.

Same as religous university's. They won't house couples fine, but they better be 100% privately funded, not just at school level, but students should not be able to use state aid to go there.
 
So you want Segregation? Because these laws are directly against Segregation..
If private businesses don't want me in their business, I don't want to frequent that business in the first place. I do respect their right to hold their own beliefs, however. There is no actual Constitutional basis for the requirement that private businesses must serve everyone (other than the fact the Supreme Court decreed it). And I would argue that the only reason it was permitted to go forth in the first place was because discrimination against black people by businesses was so pervasive that it was difficult for us to exist in society as equal citizens. I would argue that time has basically passed.

If your business is among a multitude of businesses that offer a similar service (like a bakery), nothing should stop you from only serving who you want to serve.
 

Armaros

Member
If private businesses don't want me in their business, I don't want to frequent that business in the first place. I do respect their right to hold their own beliefs, however. There is no actual Constitutional basis for the requirement that private businesses must serve everyone (other than the fact the Supreme Court decreed it). And I would argue that the only reason it was permitted to go forth in the first place was because discrimination against black people by businesses was so pervasive that it was difficult for us to exist in society as equal citizens. I would argue that time has basically passed.

If your business is among a multitude of businesses that offer a similar service (like a bakery), nothing should stop you from only serving who you want to serve.

You haven't answered my question.

We have had a time in history when ALL of what you have stated was happening.

Its called Segregation.

So you want that again? Because acting like the Country is forward enough to remove discrimination protections across the country is naive. We are seeing the same exact stuff with LGBT individuals still. Since the many states dont have protections like they do for race and religion. And you want to to remove those protections also?
 

thefit

Member
These governors cannot be so stupid that they are advocating for Jim Crow laws and if they get their way its just going to spiral down from there.
 
Yeah, we had a period of time with all of that.

Its called Jim Crow, Segregation and Separate but equal.

It doesn't work.

And this is why I'm torn. As a poster pointed out, I have strong Libertarian tendencies in some areas.

This is one I should just sit out. heh
 
If private businesses don't want me in their business, I don't want to frequent that business in the first place. I do respect their right to hold their own beliefs, however. There is no actual Constitutional basis for the requirement that private businesses must serve everyone (other than the fact the Supreme Court decreed it). And I would argue that the only reason it was permitted to go forth in the first place was because discrimination against black people by businesses was so pervasive that it was difficult for us to exist in society as equal citizens. I would argue that time has basically passed.

If your business is among a multitude of businesses that offer a similar service (like a bakery), nothing should stop you from only serving who you want to serve.

I can't believe you somehow believe that a business can discriminate against anyone they want, but somehow also believe that private communities have to make their pools be open to everyone. Seriously, I am just sitting here in stunned disbelief about how compartmentalized your logic is.
 
We've had this argument too many times. Fix the Civil Rights Act so we don't have to keep hearing this whining. Whining that is ostensibly about a loss of privilege.
 
How on Earth would that be enforceable? Also, I can't believe you're calling for a return to Jim Crow styled accommodations...

civil-rights-movement-3.jpg


This? Really?

WeWashForWhitePeople.jpg

City planning departments keep records on what businesses offer what services. Moreover, you could go to court if you felt the business was the only business that offered a desired service. If you were harmed by the lack of service to a certain degree, you would win the case and the business would be required to provide you with that service. Not that hard really.

And yes, I get what implementing such a law would entail. There would be an upside though. If white businesses closed their doors to blacks, for example, more black owned businesses would pop up to fill the demand. Same with businesses that refused LGBT people.

I can't believe you somehow believe that a business can discriminate against anyone they want, but somehow also believe that private communities have to make their pools be open to everyone. Seriously, I am just sitting here in stunned disbelief about how compartmentalized your logic is.

No you misunderstand my argument. I would outlaw private "community" pools run by HOA's (believe it or not, cities have the right to do this). Instead, I would construct more public pools throughout the city, where all would be welcome without issue.
 

The Technomancer

card-carrying scientician
City planning departments keep records on what businesses offer what services. Moreover, you could go to court if you felt the business was the only business that offered a desired service. If you were harmed by the lack of service to a certain degree, you would win the case and the business would be required to provide you with that service. Not that hard really.

And yes, I get what implementing such a law would entail. There would be an upside though. If white businesses closed their doors to blacks, for example, more black owned businesses would pop up to fill the demand. Same with businesses that refused LGBT people.

...we may have different definitions of "hard"
 
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