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Conservative theology professor slams Bill O'Reilly's "Killing Jesus"

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I'm sorry to cite a Salon.com article but this is an except from this professor's book so its not exactly Salon material. He identifies with O'Reilly's politics but says he is absolutely clueless when it comes to being a religious scholar, comparing his approach to Jesus the way Mel Gibson or Kirk Cameron does in their respective movies. I've bolded some parts I thought were particularly funny but the whole thing is just brutal to Bill and his ghost writer.


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Bill O’Reilly is a phenomenon. He is the host of the top-rated “The O’Reilly Factor” and the co-author of a number of bestselling historical books, notably “Killing Lincoln” and “Killing Kennedy.” To these he has recently added “Killing Jesus: A History,” written with Martin Dugard. I must confess to being a frequent viewer of “The Factor.” I enjoy Bill O’Reilly’s humor, and I usually agree with his social and political opinions (though on some issues he is not quite conservative enough to suit me). I want you to be aware of this at the outset, because I want it to be clear I am not one of the man’s detractors who look for any opportunity to take him down. This book, a rejoinder to “Killing Jesus,” I felt compelled to write by my professional conscience as a New Testament scholar. It is evident to me that Bill O’Reilly and Martin Dugard are writing way, way out of their fields of expertise and that they simply do not understand either the principles of critical historiography or the difference between a historical and a religious treatment of a topic.

“Killing Jesus” attempts to apply the same principles of journalistic research that worked well enough in O’Reilly and Dugard’s books on the Lincoln and Kennedy assassinations. But it does not work. I hope to show (as much as I regret having to) that the task of reconstructing the events connected with a figure like Jesus Christ, the deity of the Christian faith, and that of writing about modern political figures, is as different as the heavens are from the earth. And “Killing Jesus” depends essentially upon ignoring that difference. I should estimate that reporting the historical truth about Jesus falls somewhere between documenting the facts about Robin Hood and Superman. It is just not the same thing at all. Another thing I aim to demonstrate is that to treat Jesus as one treats Abe Lincoln tends to make nonsense of the gospels, our main source concerning Jesus. If one loves the gospel accounts and wants to appreciate them by the standards by which they were written, one does not come out where O’Reilly and Dugard do. One does not even begin where they begin. If there is any parallel at all between writing about JFK and writing about Jesus, we might have to compare using the gospels for a blow-by-blow account to drawing up “Killing Kennedy” from the mass of conspiracy theories entertained by Dale Gribble. In both cases we are dealing with a genre very different from straight history.

Any biographer of Kennedy or of Lincoln must familiarize himself with the earliest available source material (though the gospels are not nearly so early or reliable as our authors believe) and then do a comprehensive study of previous work in the field. One would, for instance, weigh and compare the very different portraits of Honest Abe drawn by Carl Sandburg and C. A. Tripp, who claimed to have “outed” Lincoln as a homosexual. It is important not to disregard the history of scholarship lest one, impatient to reinvent the wheel, wind up producing a wheel greatly inferior to those already available. There is no sign whatsoever that the authors of “Killing Jesus” have even begun to do their homework here. In the end notes, true, we find a number of book recommendations, but it is revealing that virtually every one of the New Testament and Jesus books mentioned are the work of evangelical/fundamentalist spin doctors dedicated to defending the proposition that the gospels are entirely accurate, miracles and all. We are not in the No-Spin Zone anymore. And it is not that O’Reilly and Dugard actually discuss the arguments of these authors. It seems, rather, that O’Reilly and his collaborator have simply cited these apologists for the faith as a license to treat the gospels as inerrant scripture.

O’Reilly has many times contended that “Killing Jesus” sticks to the facts and stops short of promoting religious doctrine. Please tell me how a purely historical work time and again asserts as simple fact that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament predictions. It is not enough to refrain from calling Jesus “Christ.” That does not make the book impartial history. The entire treatment of the Bible bears witness that O’Reilly and Dugard are approaching it as committed religious believers. Both are proud Roman Catholics. So was the late, great New Testament scholar Raymond E. Brown (whose magisterial work “The Death of the Messiah,” thankfully, our authors recommend in the end notes), but Father Brown knew the difference between historical research and proof-texting, between writing a scholarly work and writing a narrative novel with a few pedantic digressions thrown in. Raymond E. Brown, Joseph A. Fitzmyer, John Meier, Hans Küng, Edward Schillebeeckx, Thomas L. Brodie, Herman Hendrickx, Jon Sobrino, all are Roman Catholics — and not one of them would ever be caught with his name on a book like this one.

“Killing Jesus” has nothing to do with Life of Jesus studies. It is in fact almost a twin to Mel Gibson’s oh-so-authentic 2004 film “The Passion of the Christ.” Both are exhibitions of popular piety aimed at reinforcing believers’ faith and stilling their doubts by providing a real-seeming illusion about the myths and legends of the gospels. Their function is not dissimilar to that of the numerous End Times movies and novels like “Left Behind,” “Image of the Beast” and “A Distant Thunder.” Those fictions, whether on-screen or page (and “Killing Jesus” is already heading for the screen), help buttress faith in the ever-receding, always deferred Second Coming of Christ by depicting it in narrative form before the eyes of those who would really like to see the Rapture, the Great Tribulation and so on occurring on the evening news. They don’t. They can’t. So End Times fiction is the next best thing, a game of pretend. And that is just the role of “The Passion of the Christ” and “Killing Jesus.” The familiar Sunday school tales are dressed up in pseudo-documentary form to make the Christian reader feel confident that the legends are historical reports, not legends at all. It is all a trick, though Gibson, O’Reilly and Dugard are presumably tricking themselves as well.

It is not going too far to compare “Killing Jesus” to Dan Brown’s pseudo-historical bestseller “The Da Vinci Code.” Like Brown, O’Reilly and Dugard assure the reader that the fast-paced narrative he is about to read is based on historical fact. And just as Brown’s “facts” have been gathered from half-cocked “research” like Baigent, Lincoln and Leigh’s cinderblock of misinformation, Holy Blood, Holy Grail, O’Reilly and Dugard are too ready to accept the religious apologetics of Craig Evans, Darrell Bock, J. P. Moreland and William Lane Craig as genuine historical scholarship. The reader of either book is sure to be led astray, though admittedly in very different directions.

O’Reilly and Dugard are like Ben Bernanke, churning out inflated currency that lacks the value of the amount stamped on it. They are like Jay Carney, bald-facedly handing out the inflexible talking points of an institutional party line, in this case that of conservative Christianity. Bill O’Reilly has no trouble at all seeing what is really going on in these political cases, but when it comes to religion he cannot see it. If he even knows about the great legion of critical scholars who classify most of the gospel story as myth and legend, no doubt he considers them pinheads. If political liberalism is, as David Mamet contends, essentially a fact-proof, dogmatic religious faith, it is a shame that Bill O’Reilly can see through those illusions but cannot penetrate those of Christian apologetics. Instead, in “Killing Jesus,” he joins in propagating them.

Whenever evolutionary biologist and militant atheist Richard Dawkins appears on “The Factor” (and it is greatly to Bill’s credit that he does), I’m sure many of my readers find themselves cringing at the lame arguments Bill uses in his attempts to set Dawkins straight. Like me, they must wince at the smug self-satisfaction of Bill’s boasts after the interview that he has triumphed over Dawkins. He is just plain out of his league. And, I regret to say, in “Killing Jesus” he is even farther in over his head (as tall as he is). And the book you are about to read is an attempt to set things right, to undo the misinformation that constitutes “Killing Jesus.” In other words, the spin stops here.
 

The Lamp

Member
Gonna send this link to my step-dad. He bought this book and is so obsessed with O'Reilly but also a professing Christian that this is my chance to convince him into questioning this asshole's logic on something for once.
 
What annoys me about O'Reilly and the people that defend/attack him is that i'm pretty sure he KNOWS he is an asshat. He knows it's all bullshit.

Guy does it cuz it works. He's making oodles of cash and that's all he gives a shit about. I feel this way about most people on Fox. The whole fucking network is in on it.
 

Monocle

Member
What annoys me about O'Reilly and the people that defend/attack him is that i'm pretty sure he KNOWS he is an asshat. He knows it's all bullshit.

Guy does it cuz it works. He's making oodles of cash and that's all he gives a shit about. I feel this way about most people on Fox. The whole fucking network is in on it.
O'Reilly is Harvard educated yet he trots out arguments that first year philosophy students would rip to shreds. He doesn't strike me as a dummy. I'd sooner believe he's a phony.
 
What annoys me about O'Reilly and the people that defend/attack him is that i'm pretty sure he KNOWS he is an asshat. He knows it's all bullshit.

Guy does it cuz it works. He's making oodles of cash and that's all he gives a shit about. I feel this way about most people on Fox. The whole fucking network is in on it.

The whole network is so weird I have to think theres a concerted effort to project this image. Like Bill's feud with Colbert and the charity where Colbert "stole" Bill's microwave. Or Daily Show and Sean Hannity. None of them seem to grasp satire or comedy or feign outrage to play the wounded party.
 

riotous

Banned
I really don't think he's a fake. He seems the least fake of anyone on Fox News to me really.

A Harvard education doesn't suddenly mean your political philosophies won't be juvenile. You can't always educate away intellectual dishonesty; O'Reilly is a hypocrite like most pompous / pious people but not a fraud IMO.
 
O'Reilly is Harvard educated yet he trots out arguments that first year philosophy students would rip to shreds. He doesn't strike me as a dummy. I'd sooner believe he's a phony.

I've always felt the opposite. I could see guys like Hannity, Rush and Glen Beck being phonies who are just pandering to an ignorant fanbase for the money, but O'Reilly has always struck me as being completely oblivious and lacking any sort of self awareness. He's like Michael Scott from the Office or Ron Burgundy.
 

Kai Dracon

Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
My Colbert Gut feeling has always been that O'Reilly is a sincere conservative who is cynical and doesn't give a shit about playing up his basically real beliefs for gonzo television. I would not be surprised if behind the scenes, he has no respect for everyone from Limbaugh to Hannity. People come across as idiotic or complete liars who talk pure bullshit for ratings.

I get the impression Stewart and Colbert play patty cake with O'Reilly because they recognize the gonzo factor and see it as the conservative version of their own exaggerated projections. Whereas Stewart might be likely to leap over his desk at Hannity, seeing the man as a exploitative sociopath who will say anything for a paycheck.
 

Kettch

Member
So he's saying the book is entertainment dressed up to reinforce faith in the readers rather than a factual account? I don't see the issue. That's what O'Reilly does. The author even states at the bottom that when O'Reilly debates Dawkins he just throws bullshit around that his core of viewers gobble up.

The only difference between this and everything else O'Reilly does is that the author agrees with most everything else.
 

riotous

Banned
Theology must be a fairly frustrating field. Gotta be a lot of people claiming to be theologists who are incredibly biased and not well informed. I imagine being a climate scientist is similar.. or an evolutionary biologist.
 

BadAss2961

Member
I really don't think he's a fake. He seems the least fake of anyone on Fox News to me really.

A Harvard education doesn't suddenly mean your political philosophies won't be juvenile. You can't always educate away intellectual dishonesty; O'Reilly is a hypocrite like most pompous / pious people but not a fraud IMO.
I agree. Unlike a lot of people on Fox News, especially Hannity, I think O'Reilly actually believes the things he says.
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
I agree. Unlike a lot of people on Fox News, especially Hannity, I think O'Reilly actually believes the things he says.

Hannity believes every last thing he says. His radio show is even worse than his TV show.
 

Red Mage

Member
Gonna send this link to my step-dad. He bought this book and is so obsessed with O'Reilly but also a professing Christian that this is my chance to convince him into questioning this asshole's logic on something for once.

Er... the author of the piece does not believe in the Gospels or New Testament's inerrancy. Why would this convince him to question O'Reilly on anything?
 
Theology must be a fairly frustrating field. Gotta be a lot of people claiming to be theologists who are incredibly biased and not well informed. I imagine being a climate scientist is similar.. or an evolutionary biologist.

Typically theologists are incredibly biased AND well informed.

The truth is simply separate from the facts.
 
The excerpt the OP quoted hasn't fully explained why the author treats the gospels as myth and legend. A lot of it comes down to the genre of writing that the gospels fall into and how they compare with other works in circulation at the time, as well as how ancient peoples' relationship with things like facts differs from our own.

It's been a while since I looked into it, but I seem to remember that the gospels are examples of the genre most famously exemplified by Plutarch's Lives. The basic idea behind them is that they're morality stories dressed up as biographies. They tell the basic story of a person's life, but slant it to fit whatever agenda they're pushing by omitting/emphasising/inventing certain events. The point isn't to report on the hard facts of the subject's life and context, it's to make the reader a better person.

Luke is is a bit different, being the first half of a two-part book with Acts as the second part. The latter has elements of several different genres floating around at the time, including the Greek novel, with shipwrecks, kidnappings, run-ins with unsavoury characters, miraculous escapes etc. being common features.

It also helps to remember that Matthew, Mark and Luke are related in that they either quote from each other or from a fourth, lost document called Q. John appears to have been developed independently from the rest.

Anyway, the other thing to keep in mind is that ancient authors lived in a pre-scientific mindset. Cataloging facts just wasn't something they cared about. The gospels' quoting the genealogy of Jesus, for instance, wasn't to record the exact ancestors Jesus had, but to emphasise that Jesus was King David's rightful heir and therefore, the Messiah.
 
O'Reilly is Harvard educated yet he trots out arguments that first year philosophy students would rip to shreds. He doesn't strike me as a dummy. I'd sooner believe he's a phony.

Yeah, from him you at least get moments where you realize how he treats his job sarcastically or as a joke at times
 

RedTurbo

Banned
I will give Bill O Reilly credit for the Killing Lincoln and Killing Kennedy books minus how he makes it seem like Lincoln and Kennedy were conservatives.

I knew the Killing Jesus one was not going to be anything other than a retelling of the Gospels which are, from a scholarly perspective, legends. The theology professor isn't saying anything that most theologians and historians didn't already know.
 

genjiZERO

Member
O'Reilly is Harvard educated yet he trots out arguments that first year philosophy students would rip to shreds. He doesn't strike me as a dummy. I'd sooner believe he's a phony.

He's not really "Harvard educated". He earned a one year masters three in public administration in 1995. He really went to Marist.
 

Zero Hero

Member
"When you hear something on a partisan-driven program, do not believe it!" Bill O'Reilly told his audience on Wednesday.

I have to agree with Bill. I don't believe anything he says.
 

RedTurbo

Banned
Luke is is a bit different, being the first half of a two-part book with Acts as the second part. The latter has elements of several different genres floating around at the time, including the Greek novel, with shipwrecks, kidnappings, run-ins with unsavoury characters, miraculous escapes etc. being common features.

It also helps to remember that Matthew, Mark and Luke are related in that they either quote from each other or from a fourth, lost document called Q. John appears to have been developed independently from the rest.

Funny that you mention this especially about the Gospels. With all available information, the gospels were not written before, or even while, "Paul" was alive which is why he never quotes any of them. The messiah also never had a name face or likeness in the oldest surviving translations as well so they weren't mentioning specifically "Jesus" of the gospels as "Jesus" came second.

Of the gospels that made it to the Bible, chronologically, Mark was written first then Matthew then Luke and finally John with the first being written somewhere around 70AD. John is a unique case because it was written as due to an Early Christian schism caused by the broken promises of "Paul" in that the messiah would come in their lifetimes. Paul banked heavily and convinced many early christians that their messiah would come and save them from the Romans while he was alive. When he got old and it wasn't looking like it was going to happen anytime soon, he changed his tune to more of a it could happen after he dies and, more infamously, "A day to god is like a thousand elsewhere.". The early Christians saw through that con and many got off the train except for the group that still believed what "Paul" said to the tee.

The authors of "John" were essentially Paul's defense force and came last essentially after the hype died down after Paul's death and to revive interest in the idea. "John" is pretty much like a badass reboot and adds more mythical elements to the already existing Gospels and puts heavy emphasis on themes that would have interested 1 Century Roman citizens. The group of Early Christians that wrote John also wrote 1,2,3 John and Revelation and their style is far different from the other gospels and even "Paul's" works.

Anyway, the other thing to keep in mind is that ancient authors lived in a pre-scientific mindset. Cataloging facts just wasn't something they cared about. The gospels' quoting the genealogy of Jesus, for instance, wasn't to record the exact ancestors Jesus had, but to emphasise that Jesus was King David's rightful heir and therefore, the Messiah.

Essentially, "John" and the gospels as a whole really railed into what a citizen of the Roman Empire's viewpoint of what a messiah would be which was more of a demi-god and that he would be willing to save everybody including non-Jewish people (which was a mechanism added so that the diverse Roman empire could be converted). They did not however keep with the original interpretation of who the messiah would be especially with blatant facts such as that the messiah would be a human and have human parents. While they try to attempt that by showing the chronology, it severely misses the mark in practice with "God" being "Jesus'" real father, and a virgin birth and mysticism (most of which was added by "John") that people born in the Roman's culture would have enjoyed, but the pre-Roman Empire Jews would have hated. This is why the Jews don't take the New Testament as part of their religion.
 

Rest

All these years later I still chuckle at what a fucking moron that guy is.
What annoys me about O'Reilly and the people that defend/attack him is that i'm pretty sure he KNOWS he is an asshat. He knows it's all bullshit.

Guy does it cuz it works. He's making oodles of cash and that's all he gives a shit about. I feel this way about most people on Fox. The whole fucking network is in on it.
Having caught a glimpse of his show, I would say that that is true. He's basically trolling the far left, saying things that he knows are inflammatory. He had an "interview" with some self identified liberal writer, and was insulting the guy to his face, but in a way that I thought was obviously facetious. The other guy didn't understand that it wasn't serious programming and was getting upset, so O'Reilly kept at it for the sake of TV. After a while the guy was really upset, his face was turning red and it looked like he was actually hurt by the things O'Reilly was saying, so O'Reilly turned his attack down. It was an interesting few minute of television, to say the least.
 

DonasaurusRex

Online Ho Champ
Funny that you mention this especially about the Gospels. With all available information, the gospels were not written before, or even while, "Paul" was alive which is why he never quotes any of them. The messiah also never had a name face or likeness in the oldest surviving translations as well so they weren't mentioning specifically "Jesus" of the gospels as "Jesus" came second.

Of the gospels that made it to the Bible, chronologically, Mark was written first then Matthew then Luke and finally John with the first being written somewhere around 70AD. John is a unique case because it was written as due to an Early Christian schism caused by the broken promises of "Paul" in that the messiah would come in their lifetimes. Paul banked heavily and convinced many early christians that their messiah would come and save them from the Romans while he was alive. When he got old and it wasn't looking like it was going to happen anytime soon, he changed his tune to more of a it could happen after he dies and, more infamously, "A day to god is like a thousand elsewhere.". The early Christians saw through that con and many got off the train except for the group that still believed what "Paul" said to the tee.

The authors of "John" were essentially Paul's defense force and came last essentially after the hype died down after Paul's death and to revive interest in the idea. "John" is pretty much like a badass reboot and adds more mythical elements to the already existing Gospels and puts heavy emphasis on themes that would have interested 1 Century Roman citizens. The group of Early Christians that wrote John also wrote 1,2,3 John and Revelation and their style is far different from the other gospels and even "Paul's" works.



Essentially, "John" and the gospels as a whole really railed into what a citizen of the Roman Empire's viewpoint of what a messiah would be which was more of a demi-god and that he would be willing to save everybody including non-Jewish people (which was a mechanism added so that the diverse Roman empire could be converted). They did not however keep with the original interpretation of who the messiah would be especially with blatant facts such as that the messiah would be a human and have human parents. While they try to attempt that by showing the chronology, it severely misses the mark in practice with "God" being "Jesus'" real father, and a virgin birth and mysticism (most of which was added by "John") that people born in the Roman's culture would have enjoyed, but the pre-Roman Empire Jews would have hated. This is why the Jews don't take the New Testament as part of their religion.

Paul quotes the book of Luke , and no one agrees when the gospels were written because we only have copies from the 2nd century and fragments from the first as our oldest sources (so thats like 150+ years or so to date them). Oldest transmission we have is the excerpt from Corinthians 1:15:

15 Now I would remind you, brothers,[a] of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2 and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

3 For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8 Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me.

Now what happened in Corinth pre-dates the gospels , and look at the content of what was taught. Christ died for our sins , so he is attributed early on the title "Messiah"(Christ) . Furthermore his death, burial, and resurrection, and then his post burial appearances. People about the gospels till the end of time. What was orally passed on before Paul was even converted so very early on is right there . Even though Paul is writing this letter he says and uses the Rabbinic term of" delivering what he received", and he says this is of "first" importance, so more so than his teaching is what he received from the witnesses and the 12 disciples because they received from their rabbi Jesus. Thats basically the outline of the gospels, there was no new testament yet so the scriptures were the Torah, Prophets and wisdom literature + pslams the old testament. Its clear they appealed to the old testament to prove Jesus was the one promised on top of their testimony of his death burial and resurrection as affirmation. Acts 17:10 - 13

10 As soon as it was night, the brothers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. 11 Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day[\b] to see if what Paul said was true.


So....i dont really think the gospels are needed when it comes to explaining, what did Paul teach to others, and what belief is Christianity built upon, its pretty clear they believed Jesus was the Son of God and he died was buried and was raised from the dead. Even hostile sources like the Talmud have record of Jesus , and explain same things as the gospel in a negative light , his ministry(apostasy), his miracles (was a sorcerer) his death on a cross (no testimony to clear his name to the Sanhedrin), and empty tomb (disciples stole the body). They don't deny a single aspect of the gospels or the earlier transmission from Corinthians they explain the source of his acts and goal of his works differently. Who has this actual and different tale of Jesus if not his enemies?

Proposing a pre gospel written document is a waste of time, because that creates something no one has, to explain something you do have. Who has ever seen even a scrap of a fragment of Q?

Why create another account to explain transmission of the Gospel? Same goes postulating later on he was made to be the Son of God? Oh really so then why did he get crucified? What was the charge if you take out all the claims made in the gospels? Jewish law does not require death for being a good teacher that taught people to love their enemies. The people who believed in Jesus give the same account as the ones who didn't believe him, he was killed for claiming to be not only the Messiah but the Son of God and equal in nature to God, Yaweh , El shaddai , Adonai. People can still believe it or not but to take the mountain of accounts you have...then the extra biblical accounts that line up with those accounts. However what is reasonable is another account of what happened that has no trace of ....anything going back to the time it happened.... commentary and hypothesis from a scholar is one thing, but sources and positive statements are another I would love to read these documents, history intrigues me, the older the better.
 

BadAss2961

Member
Hannity believes every last thing he says. His radio show is even worse than his TV show.
I've heard him on the radio before. Everyone's at maximum on the radio compared to TV where they have to behave a little more.

But I look at Sean sometimes and know for sure that he's just trolling and/or pushing the agenda. There are moments on TV where you can see that he's almost laughing at some of the bullshit he's spewing.

He's not a total fraud, as he's definitely on the side he believes in. But he's willing to overdo things even if he realizes it -- like those ridiculous Phil Robertson segments. O'Reilly on the other hand is dead serious about all his bullshit, including his huge ego. He even talks down to just about everyone on his show except his buddy Dennis Miller.
 

Amir0x

Banned
It's a shame that so much dogmatic behavior is attached to the belief that the gospels must be 100% accurate. Some of the Biblical stories are quite grotesque and I wouldn't want to be associated with in the first place, but there are other stories that can be quite beautiful to read, even taken as myth (which they undoubtedly are). These books can provide fantastic shared moments of scholarship, decent life guidance every now and then, or just gorgeous poetry. But the second you fall down the rabbit hole of believing it is the divine word of God, every bad thing that can happen does, in fact, happen.
 
Bill O'Reilly is such a fucking fake. I don't know how Jon Stewart is friends with him.

Just because they mutually like poking each other, doesn't make them friends. At best I'd say they have a grudging respect for one another (from what I've seen).

And Jon has actually claimed that he thinks O'Reilly puts on a show a bit and doesn't believe everything he says.

My Colbert Gut feeling has always been that O'Reilly is a sincere conservative who is cynical and doesn't give a shit about playing up his basically real beliefs for gonzo television. I would not be surprised if behind the scenes, he has no respect for everyone from Limbaugh to Hannity. People come across as idiotic or complete liars who talk pure bullshit for ratings.

I've always gotten the impression that O'Reilly thinks Beck and Limbaugh especially are nutty assholes.
 

RedTurbo

Banned
Paul quotes the book of Luke , and no one agrees when the gospels were written because we only have copies from the 2nd century and fragments from the first as our oldest sources (so thats like 150+ years or so to date them). Oldest transmission we have is the excerpt from Corinthians 1:15:

While 1 Corinthians is one of the sources that is considered to be an authentic source of Paul's life and experiences, the "Paul" quotes from 1 Timothy which references Luke fall into a very disputed area because it mentions sources which are only known to have occurred after Paul's death.
 

Red Mage

Member
Funny that you mention this especially about the Gospels. With all available information, the gospels were not written before, or even while, "Paul" was alive which is why he never quotes any of them. The messiah also never had a name face or likeness in the oldest surviving translations as well so they weren't mentioning specifically "Jesus" of the gospels as "Jesus" came second.

Of the gospels that made it to the Bible, chronologically, Mark was written first then Matthew then Luke and finally John with the first being written somewhere around 70AD. John is a unique case because it was written as due to an Early Christian schism caused by the broken promises of "Paul" in that the messiah would come in their lifetimes. Paul banked heavily and convinced many early christians that their messiah would come and save them from the Romans while he was alive. When he got old and it wasn't looking like it was going to happen anytime soon, he changed his tune to more of a it could happen after he dies and, more infamously, "A day to god is like a thousand elsewhere.". The early Christians saw through that con and many got off the train except for the group that still believed what "Paul" said to the tee.

The authors of "John" were essentially Paul's defense force and came last essentially after the hype died down after Paul's death and to revive interest in the idea. "John" is pretty much like a badass reboot and adds more mythical elements to the already existing Gospels and puts heavy emphasis on themes that would have interested 1 Century Roman citizens. The group of Early Christians that wrote John also wrote 1,2,3 John and Revelation and their style is far different from the other gospels and even "Paul's" works.

Essentially, "John" and the gospels as a whole really railed into what a citizen of the Roman Empire's viewpoint of what a messiah would be which was more of a demi-god and that he would be willing to save everybody including non-Jewish people (which was a mechanism added so that the diverse Roman empire could be converted). They did not however keep with the original interpretation of who the messiah would be especially with blatant facts such as that the messiah would be a human and have human parents. While they try to attempt that by showing the chronology, it severely misses the mark in practice with "God" being "Jesus'" real father, and a virgin birth and
mysticism (most of which was added by "John") that people born in the Roman's culture would have enjoyed, but the pre-Roman Empire Jews would have hated. This is why the Jews don't take the New Testament as part of their religion.

...where do you come up with this nonsense? The ante-Nicene writings contain everything that is fundamental to the Christian faith. The name of Jesus, God as His Father, etc are all there. The reason Jews rejected Jesus as the Christ was that they were expecting a warrior king like David and not that he'd be the Logos of God or that he'd be resurrected. In fact, some Rabbis and the Essenes thought there'd be two Messiahs (Ben David and Ben Joseph) and that one would die for Israel while the other lead them to victory.

By the way, it was Peter, not Paul, who wrote the Thousand Years line and he was referencing the 90th Psalm.
 
Funny that you mention this especially about the Gospels. With all available information, the gospels were not written before, or even while, "Paul" was alive which is why he never quotes any of them. The messiah also never had a name face or likeness in the oldest surviving translations as well so they weren't mentioning specifically "Jesus" of the gospels as "Jesus" came second.

Of the gospels that made it to the Bible, chronologically, Mark was written first then Matthew then Luke and finally John with the first being written somewhere around 70AD. John is a unique case because it was written as due to an Early Christian schism caused by the broken promises of "Paul" in that the messiah would come in their lifetimes. Paul banked heavily and convinced many early christians that their messiah would come and save them from the Romans while he was alive. When he got old and it wasn't looking like it was going to happen anytime soon, he changed his tune to more of a it could happen after he dies and, more infamously, "A day to god is like a thousand elsewhere.". The early Christians saw through that con and many got off the train except for the group that still believed what "Paul" said to the tee.

The authors of "John" were essentially Paul's defense force and came last essentially after the hype died down after Paul's death and to revive interest in the idea. "John" is pretty much like a badass reboot and adds more mythical elements to the already existing Gospels and puts heavy emphasis on themes that would have interested 1 Century Roman citizens. The group of Early Christians that wrote John also wrote 1,2,3 John and Revelation and their style is far different from the other gospels and even "Paul's" works.



Essentially, "John" and the gospels as a whole really railed into what a citizen of the Roman Empire's viewpoint of what a messiah would be which was more of a demi-god and that he would be willing to save everybody including non-Jewish people (which was a mechanism added so that the diverse Roman empire could be converted). They did not however keep with the original interpretation of who the messiah would be especially with blatant facts such as that the messiah would be a human and have human parents. While they try to attempt that by showing the chronology, it severely misses the mark in practice with "God" being "Jesus'" real father, and a virgin birth and mysticism (most of which was added by "John") that people born in the Roman's culture would have enjoyed, but the pre-Roman Empire Jews would have hated. This is why the Jews don't take the New Testament as part of their religion.

If O'Reilly goes way far in right field, honestly don't follow the guy at all, then this is far left. I've seen many people argue against the Bible but this has gapping holes in logic.
 

RedTurbo

Banned
...where do you come up with this nonsense? The ante-Nicene writings contain everything that is fundamental to the Christian faith. The name of Jesus, God as His Father, etc are all there. The reason Jews rejected Jesus as the Christ was that they were expecting a warrior king like David and not that he'd be the Logos of God or that he'd be resurrected. In fact, some Rabbis and the Essenes thought there'd be two Messiahs (Ben David and Ben Joseph) and that one would die for Israel while the other lead them to victory.

By the way, it was Peter, not Paul, who wrote the Thousand Years line and he was referencing the 90th Psalm.

Well I will admit that I haven't read the bible cover to cover in years and the translation I read of it was poor in terms of translation quality (NIV) so I may misattribute specific quotes and instances to other people. I'm currently reading a study bible called the New Oxford Annotated Bible with Apocrypha which uses a better translation, has commentaries and footnotes, and all kinds of proven factual knowledge based on what we know today about the bible and has really helped me make sense of a book I previously thought was extremely confusing. You could read it if you're interested. It is used by theologians, seminary students, and historians alike and is highly highly recommended.

There are facts about the bible and that are verifiable and agreed upon however that do exist. The Gospels were written after the letters that are confirmed to be written by Paul. Paul changed his mind especially about the second coming due to his own death and not seeing any chance that it may happen. This website helped me out a lot to figure out that very issue. It was also a widely held belief that the messiah would return in the 1 century AD among early Christians then it became, in the second century AD and post Paul's death, a far off distant occurrence due to the writings of the gospels which attempt to confirm that held viewpoint. Scholars attribute this to the "John" authors viewpoint winning out as they have the latest authorship of all of the "New Testament books". Jesus is not held as the messiah to any Jew not because he wasn't a warrior king but because he didn't fulfill the entire prophecy of a Jewish messiah which is referenced in what is called the "Old Testament". [1] [2] [3]
 

DonasaurusRex

Online Ho Champ
While 1 Corinthians is one of the sources that is considered to be an authentic source of Paul's life and experiences, the "Paul" quotes from 1 Timothy which references Luke fall into a very disputed area because it mentions sources which are only known to have occurred after Paul's death.

Thats more making up a dispute ...with what evidence , what is that based on, Luke was with Paul on his missions trips how was the gospel of Luke something Paul didn't know about? The stretch that Luke wrote a 2 part book Luke Acts while on mission with Paul and records the missions in Acts....but somehow Paul is in the dark about what Luke is writing down from witnesses??? What? Paul is one of the witnesses in Acts....along with other apostles and followers. Acts goes up till Paul is locked up on house arrest like a Styles P video...but he had NO idea about the gospel of Luke or the book of Acts? He couldn't have possibly be quoting from that? He was living within 20 years of Jesus dying there were plenty of people to use as a source as we can see because "gasp" Luke who wasn't even there or a disciple was able to ask around and compile a gospel.

Mark is Peters preachings in Rome, John Mark is sent to Peter after he bails on Paul and Barnabas.
Luke/Acts is Luke investigating what they heard about and sending the account to a friend
Matthew eye witness the apostle Matthew
John eye witness apostle John urged to write it as he got older by his disciples

so outside of commentary what was found and read that cleared up that Paul was dead before Luke wrote Luke/Acts? Beyond a scholars best guess?
 
Mark is Peters preachings in Rome, John Mark is sent to Peter after he bails on Paul and Barnabas.
Luke/Acts is Luke investigating what they heard about and sending the account to a friend
Matthew eye witness the apostle Matthew
John eye witness apostle John urged to write it as he got older by his disciples

This is a lot of nonsense.

I recommend reading some of Bart Ehramn's work.
http://www.bartdehrman.com/

Great set of lectures on the New Testament Canon.
https://archive.org/details/BartEhrman-TheHistoryOfTheBibleTheMakingOfTheNewTestamentCanon
 
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