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[WickedCobra03]

Seeing how little ram consoles use for their OS, makes me wish the next version of Windows would come with a "Game mode" that shuts off everything but games and only uses like 50mb of ram.

I agree. I would actually love something that you could say activate "game mode" and in that it would save all your stuff to the HDD like Hibernation and you have some kind of basic OS that would let you boot the game, quit, restart...ect and then yeah, I think it would easily make gaming a ton more efficient without requiring rigs to have 4 gigs of ram, half of that being used by Vista or something!

 

[Cedille]

Btw, a couple of you say the footpoint in XDR was 48MB, but based on what? I don't otherwise overreact over mere 1 or 2 MB, but the only source I have on this matter is Naughty dog's presentation where they reveal it was 47MB. While I don't say your numbers are wrong, I'd like to know if there is another official or reliable source.

 

[jarrod]

OP updated!

 

[ThirdEye]

With 2.20

Source?

 

[2 Minutes Turkish]

Wow at Xbox 1 512kb.

Considering it was the closest thing to a real OS in a console. Quite amazed at that.

 

[mintylurb]

last i heard, 360 OS was 24MB, and PS3s was 48MB from main memory, and nothing from video memory anymore

PS3's OS uses 47MB according to naughty dog but 360's OS has been pared down to 24MB? sauce please.

 

[wotter]

PS3's OS uses 47MB according to naughty dog but 360's OS has been pared down to 24MB? sauce please.

the 47MB one is from a slide from Uncharted and prolly made while they were still using 1.80 (or older, I'm not even sure). Some people stated they gave back a lot with 2.00 and again some in 2.20/2.30, so the numbers we are talking about here are quite outdated imo. Never heard the 24MB from the 360 one though, could be possible though.

 

[AndyD]

Wow at Xbox 1 512kb.

Considering it was the closest thing to a real OS in a console. Quite amazed at that.

From what I understand from a developer friend, the Xbox/X360 implementation uses stubs somewhat. So when you pause a game and go to the blades, they load up more memory than the 24/32mb depending on what function you access.

Essentially the game is somewhat "hibernated" and the memory is used by the various menu options.

Not sure I understand how, or that i explained it well, but that's sort of how he described it. He works for Activision and is an AI developer.

He said on the other hand the PS3 does not do this. Whatever it reserves up front is all that is allocated.

I think the X360 method makes sense, and its how I would imagine the PS3 ought to do in game XMB. Just offload the game data to hard drive and give full access to everything.

 

[Cedille]

the 47MB one is from a slide from Uncharted and prolly made while they were still using 1.80 (or older, I'm not even sure). Some people stated they gave back a lot with 2.00 and again some in 2.20/2.30, so the numbers we are talking about here are quite outdated imo. Never heard the 24MB from the 360 one though, could be possible though.

Yeah, I didn't intend to claim the current XDR footpoint is 47MB either. After Uncharted was released, Sony compressed the OS a lot, so it must be less than 47MB now. I just would like to read where our figures come from.

 

[Fafalada]

So when you pause a game and go to the blades

I don't use 360 on daily basis, but I could swear you don't pause the game when you bring up the blades. I don't know how pausing would work in an online game anyway - the whole point is that I can chat with people WHILE playing the game, not my avatar vanishing in and out of the match whenever I send a message.

So no - hybernating the game concept doesn't work for online systems at all. But there's nothing saying that the OS itself can't be paged in/out on demand basis - 32MB is PLENTY for that - back in the day we used to run full Win95/OS2 with only 4MB physical memory.

As for XBox1 - like I said, that was space occupied by the kernel - which iirc actually isn't much bigger in 360(ie. it doesn't go into megabytes). The rest of reserved memory (if any) is not something I'm familiar with though.

 

[AndyD]

I don't use 360 on daily basis, but I could swear you don't pause the game when you bring up the blades. I don't know how pausing would work in an online game anyway - the whole point is that I can chat with people WHILE playing the game, not my avatar vanishing in and out of the match whenever I send a message.

So no - hybernating the game concept doesn't work for online systems at all. But there's nothing saying that the OS itself can't be paged in/out on demand basis - 32MB is PLENTY for that - back in the day we used to run full Win95/OS2 with only 4MB physical memory.

As for XBox1 - like I said, that was space occupied by the kernel - which iirc actually isn't much bigger in 360(ie. it doesn't go into megabytes). The rest of reserved memory (if any) is not something I'm familiar with though.

Like I said I am not an expert. And I didnt mean pause as in pause, but go to the blades, and control those as opposed to the game. Which pauses gameplay in my mind.

I imagine it can work like PC games though where you can minimize a game (like CS lets say) and its memory footprint is reduced as it unloads textures, but your avatar appears to just stand still in whatever corner you wedge him in.

So it does work for online games at least in the PC environment. I thought it just keeps the game stub with its online connection alive in the background.

But you probably know much better. Do you think the PS or the X360 can do all of their menu functions in such a limited space 32-48mb? I am honestly asking, I don't know much about OSes.

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

But you probably know much better. Do you think the PS or the X360 can do all of their menu functions in such a limited space 32-48mb? I am honestly asking, I don't know much about OSes.

In such a controlled environment, I'm sure.

What I wish (and I know it doesn't work this way) the most however, is that if all the RAM that Sony gave back to game use was actually automatically usable for all games. For example, The Orange Box would automatically have an extra (pulling a number here) 10MB at its disposal, maybe gaining a frame, etc. in the process.

Pipe dreams.

 

[Cynar]

The Wii would have one, if it actually had any memory at all!

Anyone having probs with their Wii's taking AGES to get from the menu, stuck n the black screen, before finally loading the picture saying hold on tightly to your Wii remote??

That's due to wiiconnect 24 , turn it off and you'll never have that problem again.

 

[Ariexv]

I don't use 360 on daily basis, but I could swear you don't pause the game when you bring up the blades. I don't know how pausing would work in an online game anyway - the whole point is that I can chat with people WHILE playing the game, not my avatar vanishing in and out of the match whenever I send a message.

So no - hybernating the game concept doesn't work for online systems at all. But there's nothing saying that the OS itself can't be paged in/out on demand basis - 32MB is PLENTY for that - back in the day we used to run full Win95/OS2 with only 4MB physical memory.

As for XBox1 - like I said, that was space occupied by the kernel - which iirc actually isn't much bigger in 360(ie. it doesn't go into megabytes). The rest of reserved memory (if any) is not something I'm familiar with though.

Most single player games do pause(<3 for cinematics).... however a few of them along w/ the MP games do not.

 

[CamHostage]

Interesting discussion. I actually have a question that I haven't seen addressed anywhere, does anybody know why it takes so long for these systems to get back to the main OS from a game or application? The PSP and PS3 take forever to come back to XMB after I quit a game, somebody was mentioning the same thing about the Wii. What all is being loaded back in besides the GUI?

 

[CTLance]

Interesting discussion. I actually have a question that I haven't seen addressed anywhere, does anybody know why it takes so long for these systems to get back to the main OS from a game or application? The PSP and PS3 take forever to come back to XMB after I quit a game, somebody was mentioning the same thing about the Wii. What all is being loaded back in besides the GUI?

Basically, they're warm-booting. Just think of it as pressing reset.

 

[DrXym]

Interesting discussion. I actually have a question that I haven't seen addressed anywhere, does anybody know why it takes so long for these systems to get back to the main OS from a game or application? The PSP and PS3 take forever to come back to XMB after I quit a game, somebody was mentioning the same thing about the Wii. What all is being loaded back in besides the GUI?

The OS doesn't reboot when you quit the game so it's likely that when you start a game it pages itself some of itself out or saves state and then restores itself after you quit a game. It would also have to drop all the game's open file handles, network connections, wipe all unallocated memory, stop all running SPU tasks, reset the graphics, set the display resolution, load all XMB graphics back in, resume any downloads (if you were online in the game), clean up any temporary files. Loads of things basically.

 

[CamHostage]

So it's not so much the OS booting back up (although that's part of it) as it is the game clearing away. Makes sense, thanks.

 

[hirokazu]

.... I'm also guessing platforms like DC, PS2, GC or DS don't keep their frontend in memory when launching game software... did any other dedicated consoles or handhelds?

Neither does Wii. The OS shuts down when a game or other program is executed.

 

[2 Minutes Turkish]

I don't use 360 on daily basis, but I could swear you don't pause the game when you bring up the blades. I don't know how pausing would work in an online game anyway - the whole point is that I can chat with people WHILE playing the game, not my avatar vanishing in and out of the match whenever I send a message.

So no - hybernating the game concept doesn't work for online systems at all. But there's nothing saying that the OS itself can't be paged in/out on demand basis - 32MB is PLENTY for that - back in the day we used to run full Win95/OS2 with only 4MB physical memory.

As for XBox1 - like I said, that was space occupied by the kernel - which iirc actually isn't much bigger in 360(ie. it doesn't go into megabytes). The rest of reserved memory (if any) is not something I'm familiar with though.

It pauses some games, but not others.

GTAIV doesn't pause. And I don't think ANY games pause while you're playing online.

Also, I think the reason the games pause during Blade access is a developer decision. The assumption is, you want to pause the game while you access the menu, so it pauses for you.

 

[Mr. Wonderful]

Neither does Wii. The OS shuts down when a game or other program is executed.

Which is really annoying, when I have to reconnect to WiiConnect24/WiFi every single time I want to be online.

Wait. Actually, though, I've received a message from WiiConnect24 before while playing a game, not online. (My Wii started to glow.) So WiiConnect24 at least must be idling in the background.

 

[wsippel]

Neither does Wii. The OS shuts down when a game or other program is executed.

Not entirely correct. The IOS stays active, only the channel interface shuts down. The game doesn't necessarily use the same IOS as the channel interface (all the different IOS versions are stored on the Wii), but there's always a version of the IOS running.

 

[acm2000]

i dont think MS has ever officially said anything about the OS size for 360, but from what ive read, various devs have made comments, which range from 24-32MB, bare in mind the 360 OS has had like 10 years development (its based on windows 2000 -> xbox os -> xbox 360 os) so its incredibly efficient and low memory footprint, not to mention MS has been in IM client game forever too, now if only they made the GUI more streamlined like i have my windows ;/ i hate chunky GUIs (im looking at you xp and osx)

 

[hirokazu]

Not entirely correct. The IOS stays active, only the channel interface shuts down. The game doesn't necessarily use the same IOS as the channel interface (all the different IOS versions are stored on the Wii), but there's always a version of the IOS running.

Yeah but when another program is loaded, the IOS the system menu is running effectively shuts down and whichever version is needed is then booted, so it's pretty much the same. Maybe depends whether you consider IOS part of the OS.

Whatever, the design is pretty shitty.

I have recieved WC24 messages during a game as well, I think that must be implemented in the game for it to do that. Maybe all the newer games have it, I don't know, but the older games certainly don't have this functionality. I've only experienced it with some newer games.

 

[MickeyKnox]

I agree. I would actually love something that you could say activate "game mode" and in that it would save all your stuff to the HDD like Hibernation and you have some kind of basic OS that would let you boot the game, quit, restart...ect and then yeah, I think it would easily make gaming a ton more efficient without requiring rigs to have 4 gigs of ram, half of that being used by Vista or something!

You and the other posters that are straight out of 2001 with the PC gaming suggestions should understand that this no longer matters. A game that could choke a (relatively clean) system with ~2gig is going to be bottlenecked by your CPU or GPU first.

Having an extra 200 megs free isn't going to help you.

 

[AndyD]

You and the other posters that are straight out of 2001 with the PC gaming suggestions should understand that this no longer matters. A game that could choke a (relatively clean) system with ~2gig is going to be bottlenecked by your CPU or GPU first.

Having an extra 200 megs free isn't going to help you.

But eliminating all the background tasks of the OS and other runing programs will also lighten up on the CPU. In theory. The idea of "rebooting" into a game is not a bad one, but I dont think its as beneficial on PC as on consoles.

 

[MickeyKnox]

But eliminating all the background tasks of the OS and other runing programs will also lighten up on the CPU. In theory. The idea of "rebooting" into a game is not a bad one, but I dont think its as beneficial on PC as on consoles.

Again, the load these tasks put on a modern CPU (in a reasonably well maintained system) is non-consequential. If your game is chugging it's being throttled significantly by one or more of your hardware components.

If you have to lift a 300 lbs fridge up a flight of stairs, bitching about the sales sticker making it heavier to lift is kinda weird.

 

[wsippel]

Whatever, the design is pretty shitty.

I think it's pretty clever actually. The IOS does a lot of stuff, and it doesn't tax the CPU, as it runs on a seperate ARM9 core.

I have recieved WC24 messages during a game as well, I think that must be implemented in the game for it to do that. Maybe all the newer games have it, I don't know, but the older games certainly don't have this functionality. I've only experienced it with some newer games.

The IOS handles networking and messaging, as well as flash access, the bluetooth stack, USB HID and stuff like that. More recent versions, used by more recent games of course, can receive messages ingame.

 

[AndyD]

Again, the load these tasks put on a modern CPU (in a reasonably well maintained system) is non-consequential. If your game is chugging it's being throttled significantly by one or more of your hardware components.

If you have to lift a 300 lbs fridge up a flight of stairs, bitching about the sales sticker making it heavier to lift is kinda weird.

You assume a well maintained system. I am talking about your average person's Xp or Vista install which more than likely has all sorts of stupid things running in the background, ranging from Weatherbug, to antivirus and spyware programs and so forth.
ANd the difference can be substantial. I have noticed differences when running a super clean system vs. my daily tasks that can take a game from playable 30-40fps to marginal 20-30.

 

[CamHostage]

ANd the difference can be substantial. I have noticed differences when running a super clean system vs. my daily tasks that can take a game from playable 30-40fps to marginal 20-30.

Even if there were a lot of compromises to put up with, I'd love it if my PC had different boot modes. One for Games where it just loaded a generally smaller OS with an easy GUI (possibly optimized for TVs as well as monitors if I have video-out) that would let me bounce straight into a game; one for Media where I could stream or play my music or videos in a similarly low-load environment; and then one for Business or Active where the whole thing boots and the full mouse-and-keyboard Windows GUI comes up to do everything I do on my computer. I just feel bad about leaving my computer running or in hybernation mode all the time, but I hate the wait of shutting it all down. Some PCs now boot as a DVD player without loading up the rest of the machine, although that is a very specific task that it does I assume because it has a flash BIOS for the DVD player itself.

 

[CTLance]

Even if there were a lot of compromises to put up with, I'd love it if my PC had different boot modes. (...)

*cough*
man runlevel
*cough*

Sorry for nerding out like that. I still think runlevels are something sorely missing from Windows. Sure, recovery console and safe boot mode could be thought of as such, but it's just not the same. Customizable runlevels are a must for stuff like what you have mentioned.

I'm totally with you on this issue, mind you.