Support NeoGAF

[Mumei]

Standards?

I don't think you're being consistent with regards to the issue of men and having standards (e.g. You want to have sex with someone to whom you are attracted and complain when someone suggests that you could have sex if you lowered your standards.) and women and having standards (e.g. You give an example where a girl could probably find someone to have sex with her, but ignore the fact that she might have the exact same problems as a man when it comes to getting someone she finds attractive to sleep with her).

I think you would find that if you were a woman you would experience the same sorts of problems that you do now.

 

[Satch]

Am I ever going to get an answer to this question?

Well, okay I guess, but is there supposed to be some alternative to this?

No matter how many times I ask it, I never receive one. :/

 

[Vermillion]

Yes every women everywhere likes every come on she's ever got and sexual harassment is just a figment of our imagination. Just stop it.

I'm talking average to above-average attractiveness.

And you do not seem to understand why women can get away with certain sexual things that guys can't. It also has to do with the fact that guys do not fear sexual assault as women do. Something you already know.

I really feel like you aren't grasping the reality of the situation and are instead projecting yourselves into it. Not every guy is going to want to fuck a woman, no matter how attractive.

I never said that. Ever. I said it's easier. And it is.

 

[Vermillion]

I don't think you're being consistent with regards to the issue of men and having standards (e.g. You want to have sex with someone to whom you are attracted and complain when someone suggests that you could have sex if you lowered your standards.) and women and having standards (e.g. You give an example where a girl could probably find someone to have sex with her, but ignore the fact that she might have the exact same problems as a man when it comes to getting someone she finds attractive to sleep with her).

I think you would find that if you were a woman you would experience the same sorts of problems that you do now.

Certainly it depends on the woman. And if we're solely talking physically attractive... a physically attractive man is more likely to approach a woman than a physically attractive woman approaching a man, imo.

A woman certainly has a larger selection. IMO.

 

[marrec]

I never said that. Ever. I said it's easier. And it is.

For all the girls who don't like the attention, there are plenty who do. Depending on your attractiveness, yes, you can fuck who you want.

Step 1: Start dancing with a guy
Step 2: Make out
Step 3: Suggest fucking

Sounds like you're saying that to me.

 

[Dude Abides]

When did Cracked turn into Cosmo?

 

[Vermillion]

Sounds like you're saying that to me.

The steps were for the attractive woman in question trying to approach a man, though.

I'm not going to say that they're going to pull every one and thing in sight. I'm just saying that it's easier, and on the approach, that's really all they have to do. If that doesn't work, on to the next one. Rinse and repeat.

When did Cracked turn into Cosmo?

Cracked has turned into everything.

 

[Dude Abides]

Cracked has turned into everything.

Everything bad, it looks like.

 

[Mumei]

Certainly it depends on the woman. And if we're solely talking physically attractive... a physically attractive man is more likely to approach a woman than a physically attractive woman approaching a man, imo.

A woman certainly has a larger selection. IMO.

You're doing it again.

The hypothetical man would also have a similarly large audience if he were willing to sleep with any woman who finds him attractive, regardless of whether he is also attracted to her.

 

[cubicle47b]

The hypothetical man would also have a similarly large audience if he were willing to sleep with any woman who finds him attractive, regardless of whether he is also attracted to her.

If there were equal numbers of men and women looking for casual sex, sure. That's not the world we live in, though.

 

[Mumei]

If there were equal numbers of men and women looking for casual sex, sure. That's not the world we live in, though.

Slut shaming is a terrible thing, I agree.

 

[cubicle47b]

Slut shaming is a terrible thing, I agree.

Slut shaming isn't a major factor in this. It's safety and perceived sexual ability.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

Now realize that your definition isn't the universal one. And if it were a man, in many circles he would be considered a "stud" for getting all that "pussy."

Tis the truth. That's the way it is, has been and always will be I hope. Men understand when I say we are losing a lot of our perks. Bragging about getting all the pussy and peeing standing up is about all that's left. Can we please retain our right to brag about our partners as a socially acceptable form of conversation and not take shit from a loud vocal minority? And for the record, I am all for equality amongst the sexes in the workplace, household, stature et cetra.

 

[Devolution]

Slut shaming isn't a major factor in this. It's safety and perceived sexual ability.

Oh please. You have dudes here without any sense of irony always talking about how they want a girlfriend who hasn't had too many partners then complain about working for sex.

 

[cubicle47b]

Oh please. You have dudes here without any sense of irony always talking about how they want a girlfriend who hasn't had too many partners then complain about working for sex.

Do you have any evidence to support that or is this your common sense?

http://www.psychologyinaction.org/2012/01/03/casual-sex-are-men-and-women-so-different/

 

[Mumei]

Slut shaming isn't a major factor in this. It's safety and perceived sexual ability.

The notion that the nearly ubiquitous cultural practice shaming women who have multiple sex partners (hello, this topic), who talk about sexual feelings or desires, or who actively pursue sex somehow is not a major factor with regards to the paucity of women pursuing casual sex is something that should be rejected on its face as absurd.

And yes, safety is also an important issue. If sexual assault - and slut-shaming excuses for why it was really her fault - were not so common, women might also be more likely to pursue casual sex. Safety and slut shaming issues feed into one another.

 

[Vermillion]

Slut shaming is a terrible thing, I agree.

Even if that's the reason, it doesn't change the premise.

And the perceived safety thing has been mentioned in multiple studies posted across this thread. Whereas slut-shaming being the reason is (so far) anecdotal at best.

EDIT: Yes, sexual assault does need to lower as well. Still doesn't change the premise.

 

[Apath]

Do you have any evidence to support that or is this your common sense?

http://www.psychologyinaction.org/2012/01/03/casual-sex-are-men-and-women-so-different/

What I've gotten from her is that men calling women sluts is the sole reason for why men have to work harder for sex, without any real information backing it up.

The notion that the nearly ubiquitous cultural practice shaming women who have multiple sex partners (hello, this topic), who talk about sexual feelings or desires, or who actively pursue sex somehow is not a major factor with regards to the paucity of women pursuing casual sex is something that should be rejected on its face as absurd.

And yes, safety is also an important issue. If sexual assault - and slut-shaming excuses for why it was really her fault - were not so common, women might also be more likely to pursue casual sex. Safety and slut shaming issues feed into one another.

But how major? Is it the biggest factor? How much influence do the other factors have on their own or together? I think it's equally dumb to assume it's the sole reason as it is to assume it's a non-factor.

 

[Professor Beef]

Tis the truth. That's the way it is, has been and always will be I hope. Men understand when I say we are losing a lot of our perks. Bragging about getting all the pussy and peeing standing up is about all that's left. Can we please retain our right to brag about our partners as a socially acceptable form of conversation and not take shit from a loud vocal minority? And for the record, I am all for equality amongst the sexes in the workplace, household, stature et cetra.

 

[marrec]

Do you have any evidence to support that or is this your common sense?

http://www.psychologyinaction.org/2012/01/03/casual-sex-are-men-and-women-so-different/

GAF is a pretty good way to judge, also most of my experience being a man.

 

[Vermillion]

GAF is a pretty good way to judge, also most of my experience being a man.

Weren't you mocking someone for using the internet as a test example earlier?

And isn't that anecdotal?

 

[cubicle47b]

The notion that the nearly ubiquitous cultural practice shaming women who have multiple sex partners (hello, this topic), who talk about sexual feelings or desires, or who actively pursue sex somehow is not a major factor with regards to the paucity of women pursuing casual sex is something that should be rejected on its face as absurd.

Just like it's absurd to think that dressing provocatively has no effect on potential sexual assaults, right? If it's a major factor it shouldn't be hard to prove.

 

[Trent Strong]

Am I ever going to get an answer to this question?



No matter how many times I ask it, I never receive one. :/

It's not really clear what you're asking.

 

[marrec]

Weren't you mocking someone for using the internet as a test example earlier?

And isn't that anecdotal?

Context my friend. And of course its anecdotal so it does not validate the theory, but the article this thread is supposed to be about names women acting promiscuously as a turn-off, and this thread has devolved into complaining about how easy it is for women to get laid compared to men. Its fairly easy to come to a reasonable conclusion from these two facts.

 

[HK-47]

Tis the truth. That's the way it is, has been and always will be I hope. Men understand when I say we are losing a lot of our perks. Bragging about getting all the pussy and peeing standing up is about all that's left. Can we please retain our right to brag about our partners as a socially acceptable form of conversation and not take shit from a loud vocal minority? And for the record, I am all for equality amongst the sexes in the workplace, household, stature et cetra.

You poor, oppressed person.

 

[KittenMaster]

Men understand when I say we are losing a lot of our perks. Bragging about getting all the pussy and peeing standing up is about all that's left. Can we please retain our right to brag about our partners as a socially acceptable form of conversation and not take shit from a loud vocal minority?

Just find other stuff to brag about, such as skills and abilities only you have.

 

[Conciliator]

Yeah they're right with #3...I choose not to participate with 'hard to get' becomes part of the relationship, because I'm just flat out not emotionally or mentally prepared for the back-forth/does-she-or-doesn't-she thing. I guess the idea is that That One Girl is so perfect that you'll do anything to keep her/get her, but I've never met a gal worth playing the 'hard to get' thing with.

But srsly the fuck on 'Don't be promiscuous?' Anyway I haven't read the thread but I see Devo's here so I'm sure she got that bullshit sorted out straight; no reason for me to reiterate. But feminism and stuff.

 

[Devolution]

What I've gotten from her is that men calling women sluts is the sole reason for why men have to work harder for sex, without any real information backing it up.

But how major? Is it the biggest factor? How much influence do the other factors have on their own or together? I think it's equally dumb to assume it's the sole reason as it is to assume it's a non-factor.

Centuries of sexual repression through patriarchal societies and being the housewife or the whore in terms of sexual hierarchy isn't enough?

Here: http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst?docId=5002028931

Read some.

Just like it's absurd to think that dressing provocatively has no effect on potential sexual assaults, right? If it's a major factor it shouldn't be hard to prove.

http://www.citizenship.gov.on.ca/owd/english/resources/publications/dispelling/dispellingthemyth.pdf

Myth.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

Just find other stuff to brag about, such as skills and abilities only you have.

Is picking up babes at the bar a brag worthy skill?

 

[BocoDragon]

I definitely know a girl who's always playing some sort of negging game with me. It's not her personality usually, but when she talks with me it's always this faux standoffish play fighting thing. Maybe it's how her brother or father liked to be talked to or whoever, but I can tell this is how she thinks men like to be spoken to. I actually respond better to stright up people who don't play games. It's like two nice people who end up playing a boring game of play fighting all the time

 

[cubicle47b]

http://www.citizenship.gov.on.ca/owd/english/resources/publications/dispelling/dispellingthemyth.pdf

Myth.

That was my point (you read it wrong). Just because it's common sense doesn't mean it's true. I've seen mentions of slut shaming having an impact but no evidence and the best piece of evidence requires me to pay $35 to look at it.

 

[Vermillion]

Context my friend. And of course its anecdotal so it does not validate the theory, but the article this thread is supposed to be about names women acting promiscuously as a turn-off, and this thread has devolved into complaining about how easy it is for women to get laid compared to men. Its fairly easy to come to a reasonable conclusion from these two facts.

Mm. The thing was why men are praised for promiscuity while women are not.

This is likely because it is more difficult for men to get laid than women (furthermore, women can use their sexuality as an asset to gain things for free).

This does not (I'd like to keep clarifying this) excuse nor explain why women are attacked for promiscuity.

My theory was jealousy (on the part of both men and other women).

That's where I'm standing right now.

 

[Satch]

It's not really clear what you're asking.

In my experience, whenever the subject of female sexuality comes up, the discussion turns towards women being able to have sex whenever they want with whatever person they can find at whatever time.

Women can find a sexual partner easily: okay.
Men have trouble finding sexual partners by comparison: okay.

Basically, I want to know if this discussion is supposed to go somewhere specific, or if this is pretty much it. Surely I must be missing something here.

 

[Devolution]

That was my point (you read it wrong). Just because it's common sense doesn't mean it's true. I've seen mentions of slut shaming having an impact but no evidence and the best piece of evidence requires me to pay $35 to look at it.

And yet in order to act like slut-shaming isn't a big impact you have to ignore history and the societal structures that kept women from choosing sexual partners at their own will up until recently. Or the societal outcasting of women from my mom's own generation if they didn't marry the man they were fucking. Do you or kenak know what "living in sin" means?

In my experience, whenever the subject of female sexuality comes up, the discussion turns towards women being able to have sex whenever they want with whatever person they can find at whatever time.

Women can find a sexual partner easily: okay.
Men have trouble finding sexual partners by comparison: okay.

Basically, I want to know if this discussion is supposed to go somewhere specific, or if this is pretty much it. Surely I must be missing something here.

That's because they're defining women very narrowly and projecting their lust.

 

[Trent Strong]

Centuries of sexual repression through patriarchal societies and being the housewife or the whore in terms of sexual hierarchy isn't enough?

Here: http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst?docId=5002028931

Read some.

No, it's not enough. How does this explain the fact that sexual dimorphism exists? How does this explain why women who are given testosterone have a much bigger sex drive? Etc.

 

[ajim]

Playing hard to get is the biggest crap surrounding early relationships. I'm not sure where it spawned from (most likely media), but it doesn't make any sense. If you genuinely like each other, you don't play mind games at all. I bail out instantly when a girl does this and it is no great loss at all.

The sluttiness thing... Eh. Slutiness is subjective, however, if the girl is posting on her FB about the amount of guys shes sucked the past month, then yeah, that's not amazing, but neither is it if guys do it.

Just be normal and shit will work itself out.

 

[BocoDragon]

Mm. The thing was why men are praised for promiscuity while women are not.

This is likely because it is more difficult for men to get laid than women (furthermore, women can use their sexuality as an asset to gain things for free).

This does not (I'd like to keep clarifying this) excuse nor explain why women are attacked for promiscuity.

My theory was jealousy (on the part of both men and other women).

That's where I'm standing right now.

It's a pretty primitive way to control female behavior... probably in service of guaranteeing the paternity of offspring. If females fool around, males can never guarantee that they are raising their own offspring. Men who are unconcerned with the sexual behavour of females would be at risk to commit genetic suicide, and never pass on their genes to the next generation.

But regardless, it's an ugly attitude to act on. Unless she is your committed exclusive partner, what kinds of sex a woman has is her own business, and blameless.

 

[Devolution]

No, it's not enough. How does this explain the fact that sexual dimorphism exists? How does this explain why women who are given testosterone have a much bigger sex drive? Etc.

What exactly are you asking? That biology can be used to rationalize misogyny? Because duh.

 

[Vermillion]

It's a pretty primitive way to control female behavior... probably in service of guaranteeing the paternity of offspring. If females fool around, males can never guarantee that they are raising their own offspring. Men who are unconcerned with the sexual behavour of females would be at risk to commit genetic suicide, and never pass on their genes to the next generation.

But regardless, it's an ugly attitude to act on. Unless she is your committed exclusive partner, what kinds of sex a woman has is her own business, and blameless.

This type of jealousy, too. Perhaps even moreso than I was thinking. I was thinking jealousy like "why can't I do that, too"?

 

[cubicle47b]

And yet in order to act like slut-shaming isn't a big impact you have to ignore history and the societal structures that kept women from choosing sexual partners at their own will up until recently. Or the societal outcasting of women from my mom's own generation if they didn't marry the man they were fucking. Do you or kenak know what "living in sin" means?

Yeah, I was ignoring history. I don't live in the same world my parents did (or even do). Previous generations went far beyond what I consider slut shaming.

 

[BocoDragon]

This type of jealousy, too. Perhaps even moreso than I was thinking. I was thinking jealousy like "why can't I do that, too"?

There might be an element of "cognitive jealousy" where someone is "logically" jealous of the female advantage in the world of hookups... but that's not universal.

More universal, IMO, is a kind of primitive animal emotional jealousy as mandated by the needs of sexuality. Males don't bear their own offspring, so they are unusually concerned with the sexual activity of females, in order to guarantee that these females will potentially bear their own children rather than those of another male.

But it's just something to get past. Primitive emotions like that needn't be acted upon.

 

[Vermillion]

There might be an element of "cognitive jealousy" where someone is "logically" jealous of the female position... but that's not universal. More universal, IMO, is a kind of primitive animal emotional jealousy as mandated by the needs of sexuality. Males don't bear their own offspring, so they are unusually concerned with the sexual activity of females, in order to guarantee that these females will potentially bear their own children rather than those of another male.

But it's just something to get past. Primitive emotions like that needn't be acted upon.

Agreed.

 

[grumble]

This thread is kind of strange.

It's pretty obvious that women have an easier time getting laid in general. Walk outside. It's also pretty obvious that many men find promiscuity and a casual approach to sex unappealing when looking for a relationship, and it's not unreasonable to do so as relationships are neither casual nor promiscuous.

What confuses ME is that quite a number of women in my experience not only don't mind that a guy's promiscuous and likes casual sex, but actively pursue that guy for a relationship in part BECAUSE of those qualities. Some kind of social proof because a guy who's been laid that often must have non-looks qualities that make him desirable?

 

[Apath]

And yet in order to act like slut-shaming isn't a big impact you have to ignore history and the societal structures that kept women from choosing sexual partners at their own will up until recently. Or the societal outcasting of women from my mom's own generation if they didn't marry the man they were fucking. Do you or kenak know what "living in sin" means?

Do you really not get what I'm saying? I agree that the way society labels and molds women has an effect on the whole issue. I question your reasoning that it is the sole reason for why men work harder for sex. To me that ignores a lot of other factors without any underlying reasoning for doing so, outside of just "because".

 

[ColonelColon]

In my experience, whenever the subject of female sexuality comes up, the discussion turns towards women being able to have sex whenever they want with whatever person they can find at whatever time.

Women can find a sexual partner easily: okay.
Men have trouble finding sexual partners by comparison: okay.

Basically, I want to know if this discussion is supposed to go somewhere specific, or if this is pretty much it. Surely I must be missing something here.

This conversation only seems to happen because some don't want to acknowledge the plainly obvious intrinsic differences in motivation and behavior between the two genders regarding sexuality.

 

[cubicle47b]

What confuses ME is that quite a number of women in my experience not only don't mind that a guy's promiscuous and likes casual sex, but actively pursue that guy for a relationship in part BECAUSE of those qualities. Some kind of social proof because a guy who's been laid that often must have non-looks qualities that make him desirable?

Perceived sexual prowess mixed with confidence?

 

[grumble]

There might be an element of "cognitive jealousy" where someone is "logically" jealous of the female advantage in the world of hookups... but that's not universal.

More universal, IMO, is a kind of primitive animal emotional jealousy as mandated by the needs of sexuality. Males don't bear their own offspring, so they are unusually concerned with the sexual activity of females, in order to guarantee that these females will potentially bear their own children rather than those of another male.

But it's just something to get past. Primitive emotions like that needn't be acted upon.

from wikipedia:

The rate of non-paternity is commonly quoted to be around 10%.[1][2][3] However, a 2005 scientific review of international published studies of paternal discrepancy found a range in incidence from 0.8% to 30% (median 3.7%), suggesting that the widely quoted figure of 10% of non-paternal events is an overestimate. In situations where disputed parentage was the reason for the paternity testing, there were higher levels; an incidence of 17% to 33% (median of 26.9%). Most at risk of parental discrepancy were those born to younger parents, to unmarried couples and those of lower socio-economic status, or from certain cultural groups.[4]

The rates value varies according to the population studied:

United Kingdom: 1 to 2% in a sample of 1,678 men.[5]
Mexico: 9.8% to 13.8% in a sample of 396 children.[6]
Switzerland: 0.3% to 1.3%.[7]
United States: A study in Michigan of 1417 white and 523 black children found non-paternity rates of 1.4% and 10.1% respectively.[8] A study of 1748 Hawaiian families with 2839 children reported a non-paternity rate of 2 to 3%.[9]

 

[BocoDragon]

This thread is kind of strange.

It's pretty obvious that women have an easier time getting laid in general. Walk outside. It's also pretty obvious that many men find promiscuity and a casual approach to sex unappealing when looking for a relationship, and it's not unreasonable to do so as relationships are neither casual nor promiscuous.

What confuses ME is that quite a number of women in my experience not only don't mind that a guy's promiscuous and likes casual sex, but actively pursue that guy for a relationship in part BECAUSE of those qualities. Some kind of social proof because a guy who's been laid that often must have non-looks qualities that make him desirable?

^ That's basically what I've heard.

Looking at it from a biological frame of mind, there isn't any "cost" to a woman if her man is promiscuous and impregnates other women. She's still having her own kid, no matter what, with a guy with great genes/abilities (aside from being a cheater.. which actually in a roundabout way means that he's pretty skillful )

But if a woman has sex with another man, her husband might raise that other man's children. The husband might have no children of his own. That's suicide for his genetic line.

What would be costly for a woman is if her man fell in love with another woman, meaning that he might leave her and she'd lose all the economic advantages he provided, and if they had children, no mate to help provide. This explains why woman are more troubled by "emotional cheating", it has a higher cost to women's reproductive potential. While a man is more troubled by "physical cheating", it has a higher cost to a man's reproductive potential. Of course men and women will both feel some betrayal at either form of cheating, but at a primitive emotional level, the physical cheating will bother the man more, and the emotional cheating will bother the woman more.

People are so much more complicated than that in many ways... but it explains where our deep, automatic emotions about relationships often come from.

 

[Trent Strong]

Ladies do love him..

I am still not convinced that women find it exceptionally easier to get laid then men, but I think its an irrelevant argument. The discussion is better focused on this idea that if a girl were to practice a promiscuous sexuality she would be lambasted as a slut much more quickly then her male counterpart.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...lege-students-respond-being-propositioned-sex

We're done here. In this study, an average looking woman approached men on college campus's and asked them straight-up if they wanted to go back to her place and have sex. 75% of the men said yes. When they reversed it, and an average looking man asked women if they wanted to go back to his place and have sex, none of the women said yes. Not one. If a woman wants to have sex with a man, provided she isn't ugly, she pretty much just has to go up to a stranger, make a few minutes of small talk, and then ask him straight out to have sex.

 

[Atrus]

#1- Playing games or playing hard to get is probably the most annoying.

Blowing hot and cold, flaking, tests etc. For the stereotype that women discuss their feelings more openly, I've actually found it to be quite the opposite.

Worse still... I find that this type of behavior results in a lot of broken individuals that I'm running into as I'm getting older.