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Cuphead is going to be boss rush only? | Dev: There are platforming levels!

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Walpurgis

Banned
I was wondering why people were praising this game at E3 when it just looked like a boss rush game. I think they even confirmed that later on but it seems like they have taken the feedback since it has platforming now. I think this could be good.
 
O

OniBarubary

Banned
I must be the only one who found out it was boss rush and it only made me want it more. Gimme those Alien Soldier and Hagane vibes yo. 2 second levels with 9 bosses.

Hell yeah.
 
B

Blingaling

Member
I will be paying full price on day 1 for this one. That's about as excited as I can be for anything. Each frame of each element is hand drawn animation. Even if the whole thing is crap you've got to admire and support that kind of craftsmanship.
 
M

Magic Mushroom

Member
Walpurgis said:
I was wondering why people were praising this game at E3 when it just looked like a boss rush game. I think they even confirmed that later on but it seems like they have taken the feedback since it has platforming now. I think this could be good.
Click to expand...

My guess would be because it plays damn well.

Why would platforming make it a better game?
 
P

Poodlestrike

Banned
I honestly do not understand people's... distaste, is I guess the only word, for a boss rush game. Is there some perception that such things are universally cheap or bad? Because it seems to me that boiling down the game to it's best elements isn't really a bad thing.

And now it's got platforming levels, which is fine, but I really don't see the reasoning behind the kneejerk reaction.
 
F

Falk

that puzzling face
Poodlestrike said:
I honestly do not understand people's... distaste, is I guess the only word, for a boss rush game. Is there some perception that such things are universally cheap or bad? Because it seems to me that boiling down the game to it's best elements isn't really a bad thing.
Click to expand...

I'm guessing part of it is there's a subtle yet ingrained conditioning in us where we remember e.g. Sonic taking 10-15 minutes per zone and 1 minute per boss, which then makes 'boss rush' translate into 'short game' or 'lack of content', where that's hardly the case and the reality is it's both contextual and depending on a game's focus.
 
S

Sumio Mondo

Member
This is my pick for "dark horse GOTY contender". On the quiet, I am extremely excited for this, especially since Treasure make fuck all nowadays. The art style is tremendously good.

Definitely my most anticipated Xbox One game yet.
 
H

Head.spawn

Junior Member
I learned so much more about this game in this thread than I have over the long time since it's announcement and seeing all of the soft coverage (only mentioning graphics, barely glossing over gameplay and design) of it. Gameplay-wise, it sounds way more close to too many tastes than I thought it would.

Thanks for the info dump Teeth.
 
Z

Zyae

Member
Walpurgis said:
I was wondering why people were praising this game at E3 when it just looked like a boss rush game. I think they even confirmed that later on but it seems like they have taken the feedback since it has platforming now. I think this could be good.
Click to expand...

They've always said that the game had platforming levels
 
johntown

johntown

Banned
I guess I was one of the few who was ok with the boss only mode.

Sure I would prefer more but if it came out with only that I would still get it for the difficulty, coop and art style.
 
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Teeth

Member
BananasWithGuns said:
So close.

Genuine question though, and not even sure if you can answer but, was Cuphead at the press event last Thursday? Any chance we're getting info tomorrow?
Click to expand...

I don't think it was (unless they were just running the old demo) and I don't think you'll be getting any new info from that event.

And I'm not going to do an announcement of an announcement here, so that's all I'll say.

Also, one thing we've been really pressing to do is not show too much of the game off before release. I really hate having seen a ton of a game before I actually get to experience it for myself, so we've made a conscious effort not to just throw new art up as it gets made (and trust me, it's super tempting considering some of the work the artists have done). We get that people sometimes get insatiable for info on a game they are looking forward to and sometimes just can't help themselves with gobbling up any and all info and by the time the game comes out, they've seen 3/4 of it and are burnt out. We don't want that. We'll be showing levels at some point (because people deserve to see/play those before the game is released) but don't be surprised if we don't show many more new bosses. We gotta keep some surprises in there, y'know?
 
B

BananasWithGuns

Member
Teeth said:
I don't think it was (unless they were just running the old demo) and I don't think you'll be getting any new info from that event.

And I'm not going to do an announcement of an announcement here, so that's all I'll say.

Also, one thing we've been really pressing to do is not show too much of the game off before release. I really hate having seen a ton of a game before I actually get to experience it for myself, so we've made a conscious effort not to just throw new art up as it gets made (and trust me, it's super tempting considering some of the work the artists have done). We get that people sometimes get insatiable for info on a game they are looking forward to and sometimes just can't help themselves with gobbling up any and all info and by the time the game comes out, they've seen 3/4 of it and are burnt out. We don't want that. We'll be showing levels at some point (because people deserve to see/play those before the game is released) but don't be surprised if we don't show many more new bosses. We gotta keep some surprises in there, y'know?
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response, and I love that you guys are taking that approach.

I've seen enough of Cuphead to know that I'll be buying it and the only thing I'm overly curious to see are the platforming non-boss stages and how they fit in with the rest of the game. That said though, I'm more than happy to wait, as long as it's great in the end.
 
W

Wibblewozzer

Member
Teeth said:
I don't think it was (unless they were just running the old demo) and I don't think you'll be getting any new info from that event.

And I'm not going to do an announcement of an announcement here, so that's all I'll say.

Also, one thing we've been really pressing to do is not show too much of the game off before release. I really hate having seen a ton of a game before I actually get to experience it for myself, so we've made a conscious effort not to just throw new art up as it gets made (and trust me, it's super tempting considering some of the work the artists have done). We get that people sometimes get insatiable for info on a game they are looking forward to and sometimes just can't help themselves with gobbling up any and all info and by the time the game comes out, they've seen 3/4 of it and are burnt out. We don't want that. We'll be showing levels at some point (because people deserve to see/play those before the game is released) but don't be surprised if we don't show many more new bosses. We gotta keep some surprises in there, y'know?
Click to expand...

Any plans for an official video of sorts showing one boss being fought from start to finish by someone that knows all the game systems? Dashes, parries, EX attacks and all that? Being that it's been at shows and people have fought (and possibly beaten) bosses it's not new footage that would be shown but more just an unbroken demonstration to give an idea what's been possible that people have likely missed. And every trailer is always like five second shots of bosses so it'd be interesting just to see what's expected and goes into beating a single boss.

Understandable if this isn't the sort of marketing you're looking to do and perhaps it would give away too much since taking down a boss is largely the goal of the game but I think it might also help since there seems to be a lot of folks that go into this thinking you simply jump and shoot with nothing else to mix things up.
 
T

Teeth

Member
Wibblewozzer said:
Any plans for an official video of sorts showing one boss being fought from start to finish by someone that knows all the game systems? Dashes, parries, EX attacks and all that? Being that it's been at shows and people have fought (and possibly beaten) bosses it's not new footage that would be shown but more just an unbroken demonstration to give an idea what's been possible that people have likely missed. And every trailer is always like five second shots of bosses so it'd be interesting just to see what's expected and goes into beating a single boss.

Understandable if this isn't the sort of marketing you're looking to do and perhaps it would give away too much since taking down a boss is largely the goal of the game but I think it might also help since there seems to be a lot of folks that go into this thinking you simply jump and shoot with nothing else to mix things up.
Click to expand...

I had this exact idea back when we did our first public showing and it turned out that all the youtube videos were of people dying over and over. We realized that we should have probably had high-level extended play for B-roll for sites to use, but then we realized that we had all temp sound effects and temp music (hadn't been live recorded with a band yet), and a bunch of the other little stuff hadn't been tuned yet and the HUD wasn't final and yadda yadda yadda. So it just fell through the cracks.

I'm going to push pretty hard for the next public showing to have pro-star B roll footage though. So yeah, hopefully, but we're like crunch 24/7 these days so stuff can fall by the wayside.
 
B

Bits N Pieces

Member
Teeth said:
I don't think it was (unless they were just running the old demo) and I don't think you'll be getting any new info from that event.

And I'm not going to do an announcement of an announcement here, so that's all I'll say.

Also, one thing we've been really pressing to do is not show too much of the game off before release. I really hate having seen a ton of a game before I actually get to experience it for myself, so we've made a conscious effort not to just throw new art up as it gets made (and trust me, it's super tempting considering some of the work the artists have done). We get that people sometimes get insatiable for info on a game they are looking forward to and sometimes just can't help themselves with gobbling up any and all info and by the time the game comes out, they've seen 3/4 of it and are burnt out. We don't want that. We'll be showing levels at some point (because people deserve to see/play those before the game is released) but don't be surprised if we don't show many more new bosses. We gotta keep some surprises in there, y'know?
Click to expand...

I don't need to know anymore, the game just sings to me :)

Now if you were to tell me that I'd be playing this game at 6pm with the sun spilling into my living room (must be Summer for the sun to be shining at that time) then I'm all ears :)
 
P

pablito

Member
Poodlestrike said:
I honestly do not understand people's... distaste, is I guess the only word, for a boss rush game. Is there some perception that such things are universally cheap or bad? Because it seems to me that boiling down the game to it's best elements isn't really a bad thing.

And now it's got platforming levels, which is fine, but I really don't see the reasoning behind the kneejerk reaction.
Click to expand...

Not everyone feels that way about bosses. Even if they do, that doesn't mean that's ALL they want to do in the game. Even in something like SOTC you still have to go out and find them.
 
W

Wibblewozzer

Member
pablito said:
Not everyone feels that way about bosses. Even if they do, that doesn't mean that's ALL they want to do in the game. Even in something like SOTC you still have to go out and find them.
Click to expand...

What about when someone else that used the Punch-Out games as an example? Ultimately those are just boss fights one after another using a very simple moveset and people don't mind there not being anything else to break up those fights.

Teeth said:
I had this exact idea back when we did our first public showing and it turned out that all the youtube videos were of people dying over and over. We realized that we should have probably had high-level extended play for B-roll for sites to use, but then we realized that we had all temp sound effects and temp music (hadn't been live recorded with a band yet), and a bunch of the other little stuff hadn't been tuned yet and the HUD wasn't final and yadda yadda yadda. So it just fell through the cracks.

I'm going to push pretty hard for the next public showing to have pro-star B roll footage though. So yeah, hopefully, but we're like crunch 24/7 these days so stuff can fall by the wayside.
Click to expand...

Sounds good. And understandable that it's not something you're looking to knock out at this time but I think it would be good to ultimately see something like that before it's fully out. Then again you could rely on skilled people streaming and getting videos up to just entice others to get it by word of mouth.
 
M

Messofanego

Banned
Yo, thank you to Teeth (one of the devs of Cuphead) for dropping all these details. I remember playing the EGX demo and realising there being more depth to it, so reading all this stuff about the abilities has me more excited.

Teeth said:
All of the bosses have new attacks, new patterns, and in some cases, totally new forms depending on which difficulty you play them on. Some have tweaks, some have fairly major additions.

Adding higher boss health doesn't actually make the bosses harder, just longer. So we don't do that.

Think of it this way: how would you make a Mario 4 level harder? You can't just give the enemies more health.

Yes, it's a lot of work.
Click to expand...

Teeth said:
It's not.

And there will be easy mode.

And in co op, you can save your partner by catching his ghost before it floats out of the screen, giving you a lot of chances.

And you have infinite lives.

It's a game that respects you as a player, when you win, it's because you overcame an obstacle yourself (or you and a friend).

I would consider myself an average player. I beat modern games on normal, I can beat Contra 3 but I can't beat Contra HC. I can beat Cuphead with some work.
Click to expand...

Teeth said:
????

Cuphead started out as all bosses EXACTLY like Alien Soldier, but that's what people railed against.

There was always going to be some platforming, especially during the bosses (which play out not unlike levels), but due to demand, we're adding more platforming levels.

They are actually going to end up being a lot like a cross between the obstacle based platforming of a Mario game and the more run and gun style stuff in a Contra. We have way more character abilities than a Contra game (dashes, air dashes, EXs and Super attacks, parries, parry bouncing, etc) which lends itself a lot better to the complex and tuned level designs you're talking about.

I couldn't think of anything less interesting than waves of enemies with a couple platforms to jump on. Blech.
Click to expand...

Teeth said:
Well, there are literally some shmup bosses, where you fly around in your little airplane, so it would be tough to say there is no influence. But shmup does not mean bullet hell: no one one the team is a bullet hell fan, so there won't be any pink mazes to wade through. They'll be more like Thunder Force bosses.

Hey, if you don't like bosses, Cuphead may not be for you. We love bosses, so we set out to make the most interesting, intense, visually striking bosses we could. If that's not your cup of soul juice, I can't fault you for not being interested.
Click to expand...

Teeth said:
Yes, Steam, GoG, etc.


I wouldn't call them "unnecessary". They just expanded the scope (and budget, *growl*), and Cuphead will probably be a better game for having them.
Click to expand...

Release date...
Teeth said:
Now that would be telling.

No release date as of yet blah blah blah
Click to expand...

No one has been showing off the depth of the game at expos.
Teeth said:
Ha, that's mostly because none of the footage from any people playing at expos or from game journalists ever shows them using the abilities.

It's a little maddening to watch people never use EX shots or Supers on bosses and then complain that the bosses have too much health.

Ditto for never using dashes or air dashes and saying that some stuff is hard to avoid.

Or calling the game "bullet hell" when there's rarely more than 3 bullets on screen at any time, and you can parry those bullets, absorbing their power into your Super bar, allowing you to fight back harder. Or using the parry bounce to maneuver around the screen more nimbly.

Or when they never switch weapons mid fight to capitalize on the different strengths and weaknesses depending on the situation the boss is putting you in.

Or ignoring all of the above and saying the game is incredibly simplistic while simultaneously being too hard. The simplicity I can kind of understand to a degree; it's designed to be immediately pick up and play. But when you design the ability set that we have in player movement, you have to have bosses that reward using that variance to the player's advantage. As such, not using those abilities makes the game feel relatively thin and much much harder than it is.


But all of that, I think, comes from what I call "Expo Exposure". People stand in line, get a 30 second tutorial on how to play and then 10 minutes to play. They are told about all the abilities, but when a boss starts leaning into you, you forget all about what someone told you you could do and just freeze up or jump into a bullet three times and die.

I think levels will help a lot with this; reiterating advantages to player abilities, repeating challenges while consistently ratcheting up the difficulty, and creating combinations of those encounters to allow the player expression in overcoming them. It's something that's easier to do in levels than in bosses. With bosses, the progression is all things that happen TO the player, whereas in a level, the player controls the pace of encounters, which allows them to learn and experiment more easily. With early levels, we can create very specific challenges that require knowledge and use of the abilities in a less stressful environment. Hopefully that will encourage them to use that knowledge to their advantage on the bosses.
Click to expand...

Studio MDHR owns Cuphead
Teeth said:
Nope.

I can't get into anything regarding specifics but Cuphead is owned and basically self funded by Studio MDHR.

You should see the mortgages!
Click to expand...

A little bit of dev on dev love! (Ori dev X Cuphead dev)
thomasmahler said:
The question is what the ratio will be between bosses and actual platforming.

I guess the issue is that they planned it as a 90% bosses kinda thing and then saw that people wanted more of a Metal Slug / Contra, so they started to accommodate.

Whatever it is, I'll be there Day1. Love the style and animations and just want to see it all :)
Click to expand...

Teeth said:
I just wanted to say, I loved Ori so much. The bash ability is one of my favourite platformer mechanics ever. I would just cruise from one side of the map to the other, bashing through things and wall jumping off of everything. I even collected all of the hidden stuff, which I never do normally.

Plus, the challenge gave me faith that people may come around on Cuphead's challenge level.
Click to expand...

Don't want to show off too much of the game before release:
Teeth said:
I don't think it was (unless they were just running the old demo) and I don't think you'll be getting any new info from that event.

And I'm not going to do an announcement of an announcement here, so that's all I'll say.

Also, one thing we've been really pressing to do is not show too much of the game off before release. I really hate having seen a ton of a game before I actually get to experience it for myself, so we've made a conscious effort not to just throw new art up as it gets made (and trust me, it's super tempting considering some of the work the artists have done). We get that people sometimes get insatiable for info on a game they are looking forward to and sometimes just can't help themselves with gobbling up any and all info and by the time the game comes out, they've seen 3/4 of it and are burnt out. We don't want that. We'll be showing levels at some point (because people deserve to see/play those before the game is released) but don't be surprised if we don't show many more new bosses. We gotta keep some surprises in there, y'know?
Click to expand...

Might be showing MLG pro strats in the next public showing's B-roll:
Teeth said:
I had this exact idea back when we did our first public showing and it turned out that all the youtube videos were of people dying over and over. We realized that we should have probably had high-level extended play for B-roll for sites to use, but then we realized that we had all temp sound effects and temp music (hadn't been live recorded with a band yet), and a bunch of the other little stuff hadn't been tuned yet and the HUD wasn't final and yadda yadda yadda. So it just fell through the cracks.

I'm going to push pretty hard for the next public showing to have pro-star B roll footage though. So yeah, hopefully, but we're like crunch 24/7 these days so stuff can fall by the wayside.
Click to expand...
 
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