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[OceanicAir]

The difference being Royal was continuing to stick with his viewpoint. It was a topic that was covered before and after Terra's suicide by him and even in the face of pressure he continued to believe suicide was the right call. Your post was a single sentence after the fact when no prior post had hinted at your observation. If you really think that's the same thing though then so be it, but I would disagree. His was a stance with follow through, yours was an after the fact "me too".

I'm sticking with my viewpoint that I shouldn't have said anything, it's a topic that is being covered right now and I continue to think it is the right call.

 

[Sorian]

Bronx not being able to kill Terra and Blarg not being able to vote for Terra are different enough when you are on opposite teams. Besides, we know that now doesn't excuse yesterday for people to not even bring it up.

It's not even too scummy to be scum, it's that this doesn't seem like a stance that scum would take.

I was talking about Terra and AB's FAs, not Blarg and Bronx's.

 

[Natiko]

I'm sticking with my viewpoint that I shouldn't have said anything, it's a topic that is being covered right now and I continue to think it is the right call.

You're sticking with your viewpoint that you shouldn't have said anything? I thought your argument was that you only shouldn't have said anything if you were scum?

Anyways, here we have Royal pre-Terra suicide:

No. If he's a lock for the lynch suiciding is preferable since it gives us a free lynch. If we lynch him normally he's dead, NK, we lynch the next person. If he suicides we skip the NK.

It's not that difficult: If you're a sure lynch, do it, no matter what. There are no downsides.

If you feel you'll be important tonight and can swing it around I can't help you. I have no clue what there would be in your flip we would need several hours for to analyse so I also can't say if this info is good to have as early as possible.

This is Royal after the suicide:

You've been playing this long enough to know that this is bullshit. Step up your game.



I didn't vote, so I'm not in that lazy ass copy-paste. And for your information, this outcome doesn't change my stance. I would give the same advice again. If you're Town and you can suicide you should once it's clear you're going to be the lynch. And I don't fucking care what your role is because you're getting lynched anyway.

Now, if Terra actually was getting lynched isn't as clear. Him being a cop certainly didn't justify that oh-so-important 2 hour deadline, as literally nothing game changing was in the flip. But with his suicide announcement he left burnt ground. There was no going back. We wouldn't have trusted him and Scum would have killed him sooner or later.

If you have the possibility to suicide, don't announce it!


With this logic you should looking for people who backed off of Terra once he threatened to suicide.

I would love to lynch you for keeping pursuing that crappy line but frankly I think if you were Scum you would have quietly dropped it today after half the thread told you to fuck off yesterday.

But seriously, the fact that people voted against Terra before his threatened suicide (Sorian wasn't even there afterwards) or then later called his bluff (well, it wasn't a bluff after all) says next to nothing about alignment.

As you can see he is consistent through it all even going to the next day. His argument is not based around "I can't be scum, scum would not do what I am doing". His posts before and after follow the same logic, and I don't think being consistent is "too scummy to be scum".

Now your post before King Kitty's observation:

I'm more of talking about right now in this case. But I do get the point at least before regarding Royal. Remember though out of the people who haven't claimed their FA yet are either a) scum and they know what our FAs are anyways or b) town and we have some filthy liars with fake FAs that have already claimed and will likely go after the unclaimed. And it's only Stan, Kitty, and Natiko left iirc.

And I'd like to see them try anyways. Besides what town PR is missing, a roleblocker? A watcher? At this point if we have that then mafia would have to have some ridiculous roles. I'd be much more interested in potential lies. Scum would way more uncomfortable at this point.

And some posts after/today:

Aye, noticed that earlier.

Because we said them in thread? 7/10 of the players remaining have claimed an FA and the one that most recently claimed had discrepancies and hardly "cleared the air". Which is why I continued to want others to claim to see how well they would make it up too.

Indeed, which is why I did such as so obviously. Because I knew it would get me scum points... wait. And I already said I wanted to see if someone else on the scum team would make such a mistake. Give me one good reason why I would ever say such a thing if I'm scum, I mean to notice it as scum, pray nobody else sees something I did, and not say that I did until after someone else does... just why. Why not just point it out and get some townie cred?

Hell, things weren't going Bronx's before KK fully caught out his slip so he'd be prime bus potential.

You read that entire post and that's what you got from that?

Again, give me one good reason why I would ever say such a thing if I'm scum, Also (again), why not just point it out and get some townie cred?

First off on the bolded, they sure as hell wouldn't, like no, not at all, ever. I've been only scum once and there was absolutely no way me or any of my teammates would have ever claimed to have noticed something wrong with a claim we'd made after the fact. Why? Because it is as dumb as hell and proclaiming ignorance never fails. Bussing would be far more forefront in people's mind especially for someone that had 3 votes before KK had pointed it out. Bronx was doing a fantastic job lynching himself and was a sinking ship already.

And why wouldn't they say "I didn't notice" because you can fall into two categories 1) the people who noticed or 2) the people who didn't, where most people in this game reside. It would be so much more likely for scum to blend in with the rest of town who didn't notice instead of striking out on this alone.

Also, not only I would do it, but nin would double down? And yes, I believe that nin's nobody would believe me claim is awful.

And I did continue to push the same way because Bronx made a full claim and I hoped other scum would do the same thing without me even saying anything that could mean that I caught on. Also, it's a lot harder to try and catch people out when everybody hadn't even posted after that point.

Your posts primarily rely on the argument that scum would not have mentioned it at all therefore it is not a scummy move on your part. Yet despite that your posts do not contain a consistency throughout. Around the time of Bronx's reveal you did not post in a manner to encourage people to possibly make mistakes, you pursued FAs which are not related to Bronx's mistake. You did not mention his slip in any way until after where you just mentioned it briefly. Again, I really do not think these situations are the same and the reasoning employed by you and Royal is very different.

 

[OceanicAir]

I was talking about Terra and AB's FAs, not Blarg and Bronx's.

Well there are two completely different strategies that AB would take as opposed to Terra to navigate their FAs. Especially since they're on two different teams, AB could claim FA cop even in the scum thread and Terra couldn't claim his. They are nowhere near the same in application. Bronx's claim and Nin's claim were one and the same in application.

You're sticking with your viewpoint that you shouldn't have said anything? I thought your argument was that you only shouldn't have said anything if you were scum?

Anyways, here we have Royal pre-Terra suicide:




This is Royal after the suicide:



As you can see he is consistent through it all even going to the next day. His argument is not based around "I can't be scum, scum would not do what I am doing". His posts before and after follow the same logic, and I don't think being consistent is "too scummy to be scum".

Now your post before King Kitty's observation:


And some posts after/today:








Your posts primarily rely on the argument that scum would not have mentioned it at all therefore it is not a scummy move on your part. Yet despite that your posts do not contain a consistency throughout. Around the time of Bronx's reveal you did not post in a manner to encourage people to possibly make mistakes, you pursued FAs which are not related to Bronx's mistake. You did not mention his slip in any way until after where you just mentioned it briefly. Again, I really do not think these situations are the same and the reasoning employed by you and Royal is very different.

You're just coming to the same conclusion yourself really, when it comes down to it you said that you didn't believe that it's something that scum would do. Whether or not he said that or not is irrelevant when you already that that was an argument you don't take stock in even though you did before.

And I said multiple times, that I didn't want to give any overt notice to people that I caught on which is why I didn't switch over to everybody full claim. That would be quite sudden and people would notice. Whether you believe that or not is a completely different story, but you just act like there was no reason as to why I didn't put anything in my post that would prove that I knew.

I also stand by the fact that I think that no turboing is a bad claim in the face of nin's claimed FA.

Alright, I''ll break down my post since Ty was asking what I was thinking

I'm more of talking about right now in this case. But I do get the point at least before regarding Royal. Remember though out of the people who haven't claimed their FA yet are either a) scum and they know what our FAs are anyways or b) town and we have some filthy liars with fake FAs that have already claimed and will likely go after the unclaimed.

This was me continuing to be concerned about the unclaimed. I've been on the case of people who haven't claimed for a while now. And the bolded was referring to Bronx.

And it's only Stan, Kitty, and Natiko left iirc.

This is me reminding who hadn't posted their FAs and trying to push them to claim.

And I'd like to see them try anyways. Besides what town PR is missing, a roleblocker? A watcher? At this point if we have that then mafia would have to have some ridiculous roles. I'd be much more interested in potential lies. Scum would way more uncomfortable at this point.

This whole paragraph was written with the knowledge that I knew Bronx was lying and I was feigning a ton of ignorance. Basically, pretending that I didn't notice anything and it slipped me by.

The whole "I'd like to see them try," "interested in potential lies," "scum would be more uncomfortable" were all a part of that.

 

[Natiko]

You're just coming to the same conclusion yourself really, when it comes down to it you said that you didn't believe that it's something that scum would do. Whether or not he said that or not is irrelevant when you already that that was an argument you don't take stock in even though you did before.

And I said multiple times, that I didn't want to give any overt notice to people that I caught on which is why I didn't switch over to everybody full claim. That would be quite sudden and people would notice. Whether you believe that or not is a completely different story, but you just act like there was no reason as to why I didn't put anything in my post that would prove that I knew.

Clearly you aren't bothering to pay attention to the differences here. Royal stayed consistent, did not argue based on alignment, and did so with nothing to gain. To everyone but yourself you changed stances, defended it based on theoretical alignment, and did so over a statement that tried to leech onto King Kitty's post that got him town read. Considering Bronx's hasty move why should it surprise me if another scum member was quick to try and gain some of those townie points without thinking of the implications?

 

[StanleyPalmtree]

Out of curiosity, of those without votes down who would you vote right now if you weren't taking other people's votes into consideration?

Also there's something ironic about OA throwing shade at Ty over not voting when OA has only had one vote down at day end and it was to prove a point.

i would vote for nin with barely a second thought.

im more or less convinced that he is scum, but holding off the vote for now since it seems like several of us feel similarly, and i dont want get close to a turbo while others still have stuff they want to discuss.

also, sorry im not chiming in a whole lot, i dont have much to add right now, and where i go from today depends largely on if nin is infact scum.

 

[Ty4on]

Now why have you missed your voting period?

What do you mean?

 

[CrimsonFist]

nin1000 (2)
natiko 1940
sorian 1991

ty4on (0)
oceanicair 1986 (1993)

An up to date vote count can be found here.

Majority is 5

Day Ends:

 

[OceanicAir]

Clearly you aren't bothering to pay attention to the differences here. Royal stayed consistent, did not argue based on alignment, and did so with nothing to gain. To everyone but yourself you changed stances, defended it based on theoretical alignment, and did so over a statement that tried to leech onto King Kitty's post that got him town read. Considering Bronx's hasty move why should it surprise me if another scum member was quick to try and gain some of those townie points without thinking of the implications?

No, your stance was that you don't support people with "they wouldn't do that if you're scum" which you applied to Royal. You're adding additional rules to that.

And what about that post looked like I was trying to get townie points? You were the first person to even mention that part of the post lol. And I never even mentioned it again until you brought it up, it's wasn't even a thing. You keep making grand suggestions about how scum would react that is counter to any scum play I've ever seen in gafia.

At the very least, say that I'm lying about ever knowing. I refuse to believe that you genuinely believe this argument Natiko.

What do you mean?

Actually, I'm completely and utterly messed up on days, whoops!

{highlight]unvote
i'll get to you ty in a sec.

Days have all unified into a single mass lol

 

[Natiko]

No, your stance was that you don't support people with "they wouldn't do that if you're scum" which you applied to Royal. You're adding additional rules to that.

And what about that post looked like I was trying to get townie points? You were the first person to even mention that part of the post lol. And I never even mentioned it again until you brought it up, it's wasn't even a thing. You keep making grand suggestions about how scum would react that is counter to any scum play I've ever seen in gafia.

At the very least, say that I'm lying about ever knowing. I refuse to believe that you genuinely believe this argument Natiko.

Context is important. I did not think scum would stick to the argument Royal was making, especially when not many were even worried about it. That doesn't mean I thought his defense of his view was "too scummy to be scum". More that it was an exercise in futility. Most of the scum in games I've been in end up being coasters who don't try or the ones that do try get caught out very early on. My issue with what you did is your defense of it was literally "well scum would not do what I did because it's a bad look". Then why did you do it? Again, my thought was that you hastily decided to chime in with that - hence it being such a throwaway comment without any rationale at the time to keep up the appearance of being observant. I do think you are lying, but specifically in regards to your reasoning for not saying anything.

This is going in circles primarily, unless others want to chime in I don't think we're gaining much here other than clawing at each other. Don't forget I brought the subject up when speaking to nin as he's the more pressing concern to me currently. It was just one point of my read on you and has turned into the main topic today with only you and I talking. Even if you are scum this isn't getting us anywhere, I would rather talk about my read on you as a whole if you're that concerned.

 

[Ty4on]

StanleyPalmtree – Null. I still don't think Stanley has shared much of anything this game. He hasn't bothered to post reads or even a scum team for instance this day phase. That being said he has been on Bronx pretty consistently and also seems to be butting heads against nin quite a bit.

If Bronx and nin are scum it seems very unlikely that Stanley is too. Due to this I've bumped him up to null until there's more info.

Could you flesh out this read a bit?

 

[Natiko]

Could you flesh out this read a bit?

Sure thing.

now my memory of the whole thing is far from perfect (thanks to you all giving me like 4 pages to catch up on only for the day to end on a dud)
but i think you are kinda overstating how much terra was 'pushed' off that cliff.
people bizzarely entertained the idea when he first brought it up, as the day nearded its end very few seemed to be pushing him at all,
terras suicide was pretty squarely on his own hands, and its not in our ability to stop a player from doing something stupid if they really have their heart set on it.

your acting like a secret cabal cornered him chanting "JUMP! JUMP! JUMP!"

bronx, these are two very different things.

also you said 'multiple times'

Click through on this one for the context. Lazy and don't want to deal with multi-quoting the embedded quotes too.

good point.

Bronx, Star Sketch, and Nin are the big inactive lynch targets for me.
though star might be exempt for this due to this whole override business.
nin has suddenly posted a lot more, but i have very little faith that this trend will continue.

i dont have much in the way of actual scum reads (hence thinking more on just lynching inactives), but if i had to pick some right now im feeling Royal Flush, King Kitty and maybe Blarg but who the fuck really knows with him. gut reads, nothing i really want to push for, but there they are.

So Stanley has been one of the less active players which generally concerns me and as such has been scum or null read by me most of the game until today actually. As you can see though he was pretty skeptical of Bronx even early on, but not in a way that to me reads as knowing his alignment already and setting himself up for townie points later on.

Some thoughts after the past hours


Natiko / OA / Ty4on aswell as Kingkitty

Have shown some good work with their posts

You get a thumps up for that


Stanley and Bronx

You both have shown little to not much to be worth it

You get thumbs down for your play.


Regarding Starsketch.

If you say you want to put it out there , either do it correctly or just don't do it all. This wishy washy claiming is not really doing it for me , but then again we will probably see at a later point today.


Regarding who i would put down my vote for.
Still unsure but i like the boldness of Ty4on.

Think outside the box.

Vote:Kingkitty

Here we have a nin post where he clumps Stanley and Bronx together (then votes for neither), remember this grouping for later.

so nin is really stepping up his shit talking, thats neat.
but besides that hes also continuing to speak in substantial volumes! oh its a Christmas miracle!

Spoiler

typing mafia at 4 am is donkey balls

anyway

*checks day time countdown thingy*

ayyyyy 6 hours to go, and i need to sleep, deja vu amirite?
no but for real this is frustrating as shit.

my vote right now is floating between Bronx-man, nin, royal, and kingkitty. all for equally poor reasons. bronx man strikes me as the least potentially helpful of the bunch, so here we go.

vote: bronx-man

and if another one of you gremlins suicides again then i'll.. i'll....

how the bucks do you threaten someone who would be dead?

Spoiler

ineffectively is how.

but seriously dont do the dumb thing.

i should just stop talking and sleep now.
goodnight friends!

Stanley is again picking Bronx out as the person he least trusts. Is his reasoning not the most researched and thorough? Yes, but given his posting level I'm not sure that should come as a surprise. In Zelda I really thought he was scum, but it turned out he was fine and it was those that were even less visible that were the problems.

Im all aboard for the bronx train, i honestly cant think of a single post he has made this game that sat well with me, particularly the constant lashing out at the slightest criticism, which i know is hardly uncommon for bronx, but in conjunction with the lack of any actually helpful posting, well it just feels bad.

vite: Bronx-Man



are you able to elborate on your stance on natiko at all, iv kinda been getting the opposite feeling form him.

yes,
bad was meant to mean scum.

also

vote: Bronx-Man

Spoiler

i think votes tend to work better when you spell them correctly, no?

Just for the sake of completeness I included these as well.

Are you able to do more than one post per day phase ?
Sorry to sound bitter but its almost bed time for you.
I just want to know

Now here's something I find interesting in relation to the earlier post. Nin had already been seen grouping Stanley and Bronx together, but he chose to go so much harder after Stanley than he did Bronx (sorry I didn't quote those this time but you can look back or look at my reads list from the other day). Now that we know Bronx's alignment it's telling to me how different nin approached the situation.

nin, iv been trying to look past it, but jesus christ, your bullshit is getting so far from reality that its just plain silly now.
you clearly dont actually care if i contribute more, if you really wanted that you would be less insulting and you would at least pretend to actually talk to me. what you are doing now is just petty and obnoxious.
i dont buy for a second that this is about my activity, so what the fuck man? what are you trying to do?

and answer my god damn question.

So really for me it comes down to Stanley's consistent skepticism regarding Bronx. That wouldn't universally work as a positive for someone but in the case of Stanley with his activity level I think it's a solid sign. The fact that nin and Bronx both were not really seeming cooperative with Stanley at any point combined with nin's very different approach to the two also makes me feel even more sure (both about nin's alignment and Stanley's). So seeing Bronx flip scum was enough to push it over the edge personally and get Stanley town read.

 

[Ty4on]

Click through on this one for the context. Lazy and don't want to deal with multi-quoting the embedded quotes too.

So Stanley has been one of the less active players which generally concerns me and as such has been scum or null read by me most of the game until today actually. As you can see though he was pretty skeptical of Bronx even early on, but not in a way that to me reads as knowing his alignment already and setting himself up for townie points later on.

Thx. Those two quotes especially are quite townie. Not related to Bronx, but this one struck me as townie too.

I get the heat Nin is getting more too. I want to look through it more closely when I've slept, but I'm not sure how much I have time for before work.

I searched for Flux-Bronx connections and got like two before D3 which I find kinda townie. Flux isn't inactive and Bronx was a possible lynch on D1 and D2 so you'd want to say... something to your mate.
I still scum read OA, but misreading my FA was a bit solvey.

 

[OceanicAir]

Context is important. I did not think scum would stick to the argument Royal was making, especially when not many were even worried about it. That doesn't mean I thought his defense of his view was "too scummy to be scum". More that it was an exercise in futility. Most of the scum in games I've been in end up being coasters who don't try or the ones that do try get caught out very early on. My issue with what you did is your defense of it was literally "well scum would not do what I did because it's a bad look". Then why did you do it? Again, my thought was that you hastily decided to chime in with that - hence it being such a throwaway comment without any rationale at the time to keep up the appearance of being observant. I do think you are lying, but specifically in regards to your reasoning for not saying anything.

This is going in circles primarily, unless others want to chime in I don't think we're gaining much here other than clawing at each other. Don't forget I brought the subject up when speaking to nin as he's the more pressing concern to me currently. It was just one point of my read on you and has turned into the main topic today with only you and I talking. Even if you are scum this isn't getting us anywhere, I would rather talk about my read on you as a whole if you're that concerned.

I personally find it amusing that you think that I'd do anything hastily in mafia when a large reason as to why I always have so few posts is because I spend way too much time going over every post I make, (of course, no way to prove that) but I digress. But the throwaway comment about noticing was nothing more than just that.

Your last reads list on me has three points, one that has been talked about quite a bit. The other two consisted of you talking about not voting which is something I already said is not completely out of the ordinary for my play. I even mentioned it myself on my tardy vote on D1. I don't vote unless I have some sort of conviction about it and I'll attest that not voting is as noticeable as any vote out there since there really is no hiding with Royal's tool.

And I'm still struggling to see why my FA investigation is bad, people have given very vague reasons as to why but nothing concrete. Literally nothing bad has happened as a result iirc. No PRs outed or anything, you make it so much more ominous calling it "scare-mongering." Out of the 4 people who I asked most recently to claim, 1 was scum, 1 literally couldn't even claim an FA, 1 has claimed one that is still up in the air, and then there's you. What does that mean? Who knows!

But you're someone who I'm concerned about of if you couldn't guess. I believe that there is one scum PR left and someone that doesn't claim a FA is gonna be dubious to me. And I said, high volume, highly trusted posters still alive sets alarm bells ringing in my head. Especially ones that I believe are arguing disingenuously.

I'd be extremely happy if nin turns out to be scum, I just think we'll a better shot going after ty/sorian/natiko. Something about this lynch rubs me the wrong way but nin not saying anything to defend himself really doesn't do anything for me either. But I'm gonna go through the thread tomorrow and hopefully come to a better conclusion on him since it is mainly based on memories.

 

[Ty4on]

Well there are two completely different strategies that AB would take as opposed to Terra to navigate their FAs. Especial
Alright, I''ll break down my post since Ty was asking what I was thinking
This was me continuing to be concerned about the unclaimed. I've been on the case of people who haven't claimed for a while now. And the bolded was referring to Bronx.

This is me reminding who hadn't posted their FAs and trying to push them to claim.

This whole paragraph was written with the knowledge that I knew Bronx was lying and I was feigning a ton of ignorance. Basically, pretending that I didn't notice anything and it slipped me by.

The whole "I'd like to see them try," "interested in potential lies," "scum would be more uncomfortable" were all a part of that.

Thanks, that's much more helpful. Could you go over ulterior motive in more detail? What were your hoping to achieve and what were you going to do to get there?

 

[Natiko]

I personally find it amusing that you think that I'd do anything hastily in mafia when a large reason as to why I always have so few posts is because I spend way too much time going over every post I make, (of course, no way to prove that) but I digress. But the throwaway comment about noticing was nothing more than just that.

Your last reads list on me has three points, one that has been talked about quite a bit. The other two consisted of you talking about not voting which is something I already said is not completely out of the ordinary for my play. I even mentioned it myself on my tardy vote on D1. I don't vote unless I have some sort of conviction about it and I'll attest that not voting is as noticeable as any vote out there since there really is no hiding with Royal's tool.

The difference between not voting and a placed vote isn't that we can't notice it, but that it does not leave a hard record of your opinions from day to day. This in turn makes it harder to have a case built against yourself if you're scum.

And I'm still struggling to see why my FA investigation is bad, people have given very vague reasons as to why but nothing concrete. Literally nothing bad has happened as a result iirc. No PRs outed or anything, you make it so much more ominous calling it "scare-mongering." Out of the 4 people who I asked most recently to claim, 1 was scum, 1 literally couldn't even claim an FA, 1 has claimed one that is still up in the air, and then there's you. What does that mean? Who knows!

My issue came in the contradiction between "scum had an FA investigator so clearly they benefit from knowing them, hell they know all of ours!" and "Hey everyone tell me your FA". Do you not think the posts I pointed out seem at the very least a bit ironic?

But you're someone who I'm concerned about of if you couldn't guess. I believe that there is one scum PR left and someone that doesn't claim a FA is gonna be dubious to me. And I said, high volume, highly trusted posters still alive sets alarm bells ringing in my head. Especially ones that I believe are arguing disingenuously.

I've already offered to claim multiple times. You're the only one that actually pushes for it though, when a majority want me to reveal mine I will. It's as simple as that.

I'd be extremely happy if nin turns out to be scum, I just think we'll a better shot going after ty/sorian/natiko. Something about this lynch rubs me the wrong way but nin not saying anything to defend himself really doesn't do anything for me either. But I'm gonna go through the thread tomorrow and hopefully come to a better conclusion on him since it is mainly based on memories.

I'd be curious to see your arguments for each of us. I hope you decide to share them. I still encourage everyone to because right now there's not much discussion and more talking will only help us in the long run.

 

[Ty4on]

Do you have a read of nin, OA?

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Oh boy. Well, I think I caught up, but some of the Natiko and OA back-and-forths are kinda making my head spin.

If I'm getting this right, this essentially boils down to the fact that OceanicAir stayed mum concerning Bronx's contradiction under the premise that he was scum hunting. Then the philosophy behind such a decision was discussed at length.

Even without that, OA was the second player in my list who I was leaning scum towards in the previous day phase, and I can't say that's changed. I don't care that it's your playstyle to not vote, the fact of the matter is you haven't voted. You haven't used the most powerful tool we have to lynch scum, with the excuse that you're "very careful" when it comes to voting. Again, you like to talk about who you would hypothetically vote for, but you never do. You never make that jump. Like there's a certain risk to you, personally, associated with voting.

You've been the player who's tried to get others to claim their FAs the most throughout the game. Now that it seems we're pretty late into it, revealing FAs doesn't seem to have been too much of a detriment, but I still have to wonder exactly why having this information all available to you was that important. On the surface, FA claims don't typically hint at an alignment, and scum could probably come up with whatever they wanted for theirs.

And, once again, there's the part where your FA conveniently discourages voting for you. So people have avoided placing votes on you, because of this.

What I've seen of your arguments today haven't convinced me otherwise. Nah, I'm doing this, and I doubt I'll be changing who I vote for.

Vote: OceanicAir

Also, reading back, I find that you barely ever mentioned or interacted with Bronx. I guess that's several people, since Bronx wasn't all that active, but I believe the first time that Bronx even mentions you is this post, going out of his way to question why someone would vote for you. Why would Bronx even care, based on all of his other comments? This stands out, for that reason:

Why OA of all people?

The only other time you, OA, mention Bronx is as a null read, here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=230080730&postcount=1342

After that, you start arguing against him way more when he's caught in his lie.

Heh, and I came across this Blarg post. It stands out to me, for some reason:

shout-outs to OceanicAir, Bronx-Man, StarSketch and nin1000 for their fantastic reads lists

 

[Sorian]

I find OA scummy obviously but the staying hushed on Bronx's role claim isn't really my main concern. It's more the bigger issue of what Natiko is pointing out. There isn't a consistency to him throughout out the game. A lot of what he says does not mesh with his view points from earlier in the game. I point to the example that I notice a lot more because it's about me (his reactions throughout the game to my claim) but you see it in other areas as well like what Natiko is harping on. The easy answer of him also lacking votes all over the place is still glaring as well.

Putting the cart before the horse, I think for better or worse, nin was on the chopping block today (notice his stalling by the way, wasn't he going to come chat us a bit?) and both OA and Flux have off voted him. I guess it really means nothing because if nin is scum then one of them is town anyway but it struck me as odd when OA did it.

I'm aware I'm not contributing much today but I'm in a position where I think I have scum narrowed down to 2 out of 3 and assuming no role fuckery (which at this point it would take exactly a vote thief), we have two mislynches so math has it. I'm convinced of Natiko, I'm convinced of Stanley (Natiko put it into words better than I could but Stanley's questions yesterday to Bronx were just too real, that wasn't scum posturing to scum). I'm convinced of Star. That leaves Flux as my only eh feeling so I'm kind of falling on meta there to say he is town.

 

[nin1000]

Ok.
I have finally enought time to put down. I know it will come down to me getting lynched but thats ok i have made peace with it, since it is not a one man show! I still want town to win this. Lets clear the air before i go down. As the day started i got called out for not showing stroing enough feelings towards Bronx Bs claim.

But lets show my reaction towards his claim.
Even though i was still in an "argument" with Flux concerning my thoughts on SS i posted this

10 minutes and 2 posts later i posted this

I dont know Bronx, I dont know.

I know you claimed by usind the red colour. which can only be used if that action is legit.
But still man. I dont know

and after CrimsonFist came in and clarified that he should not have used that highlight tag it was a sealed deal for me.

So theres that.
Regarding me catching that he had a uinique name and no PR.
yep, i did NOT catch that. I lied and i will die for it. My mistake.

Again i am ok with it.
So lets carry on.

With me gone the Player list would look like this

1. OceanicAir even though he has not voted on me i feel off about him. something is lurking around you OA but i cant pin it down. still a town read.
2. StarSketch A somewhat cleared townie

Spoiler

will probably die tonight

4. Natiko gave me good feelings until his bumps with Blarg, but sill a good townie
5. Sorian a stubborn townie, but somehow you give me the feeling that you could be scum.
6. StanleyPalmtree same playstile he has been doing the last couple of times. dont really get a strong scum feeling from him.
7. Ty4on has been observant and really into it. strong town feelins
8. FluxWaveZ you have been on me all game ( deserved so lol ) started strong but now a bit silent but still a Town read.


As you can see i cant really pin down anyone. Since i cuddled myself in a lie and my reads are trash it would be the best move for town to lynch me in order to clear the air.
Even though i am town i know i know. But lets hope that Town will come out strong out of this nin lynch.

If there are questions you would ask before i get lynched please do so.

PS: If you think that i am carrying a bomb or something i would be happy to be the last vote on myself in order to show my respect to town.

 

[nin1000]

obligatory

 

[nin1000]

Would love to hear everyones top 2 scum besides me.

 

[OceanicAir]

Thanks, that's much more helpful. Could you go over ulterior motive in more detail? What were your hoping to achieve and what were you going to do to get there?

Alright, what happened was I saw Bronx's post, thought about it, left home to go to work, on way to work I say to myself that makes no sense!, decide to wait until everyone posts at least once to gauge reactions, made a post that continued to push for FAs in the exact ways as I did previously in hopes that further scum would do a full claim like Bronx did without me asking and without tipping them off.

Do you have a read of nin, OA?

Reminds of his play in PiR (albeit less annoying), so I'm pretty sure he's not scum. This is pretty much Blarg's lynch part 2. Can't really do much on mobile right now to further expound on that.

Also now, I believe that we're in the 12 hour zone where you can't vote right Ty?

Also, can you post your reads list? I'm gonna do one myself later.

And out of Natiko and Sorian, who do you think is most likely to be scum?

I want to get to Sorian/natiko/flux posts when I get to a computer.

 

[nin1000]

who would be your top 2 scum OA ?

 

[nin1000]

pleaes elaborate as soon as you come home OA.

To the others plase post your top 2 scum players besides me.

 

[OceanicAir]

The difference between not voting and a placed vote isn't that we can't notice it, but that it does not leave a hard record of your opinions from day to day. This in turn makes it harder to have a case built against yourself if you're scum.

Why did we lynch Blarg again? Or Bronx? Voting records right? What about nin's voting records makes him scum then.

My issue came in the contradiction between "scum had an FA investigator so clearly they benefit from knowing them, hell they know all of ours!" and "Hey everyone tell me your FA". Do you not think the posts I pointed out seem at the very least a bit ironic?

What is the irony in saying that if they know ours then so should the rest of town? I was saying that from the perspective that I believe that the people that haven't claimed are scum. And one actually was and I believe you could be too.

I've already offered to claim multiple times. You're the only one that actually pushes for it though, when a majority want me to reveal mine I will. It's as simple as that.

Why do you need anybody's approval? And don't forget I also pushed for Bronx's too, I don't get the reluctance about claiming. Because you getting NK is obviously not on scum's to-do list as we've seen so far.

I'd be curious to see your arguments for each of us. I hope you decide to share them. I still encourage everyone to because right now there's not much discussion and more talking will only help us in the long run.

I'll get to that in a bit.

Oh boy. Well, I think I caught up, but some of the Natiko and OA back-and-forths are kinda making my head spin.

If I'm getting this right, this essentially boils down to the fact that OceanicAir stayed mum concerning Bronx's contradiction under the premise that he was scum hunting. Then the philosophy behind such a decision was discussed at length.

Even without that, OA was the second player in my list who I was leaning scum towards in the previous day phase, and I can't say that's changed. I don't care that it's your playstyle to not vote, the fact of the matter is you haven't voted. You haven't used the most powerful tool we have to lynch scum, with the excuse that you're "very careful" when it comes to voting. Again, you like to talk about who you would hypothetically vote for, but you never do. You never make that jump. Like there's a certain risk to you, personally, associated with voting.

vote: FluxWaveZ
vote: Sorian
vote: OceanicAir
vote: StarSketch
vote: Nin1000
vote: StanleyPalmtree
vote: Ty4on
vote: Natiko
Nope, no risk at all. Also, I ended the previous day with a vote on you so it can't be that either.

You've been the player who's tried to get others to claim their FAs the most throughout the game. Now that it seems we're pretty late into it, revealing FAs doesn't seem to have been too much of a detriment, but I still have to wonder exactly why having this information all available to you was that important. On the surface, FA claims don't typically hint at an alignment, and scum could probably come up with whatever they wanted for theirs.

Because I'm curious, think it could help catch scum, and nothing bad has occurred from it? And the last time a scum came up with a claim, it went splendidly right? Especially with nearly 2 weeks to come up with at that lol, Just admit it, more scum deaths have occurred than outed PRs from my prodding, especially since PRs had outed themselves for some reason or another (or died without claiming)

And, once again, there's the part where your FA conveniently discourages voting for you. So people have avoided placing votes on you, because of this.

What people have been discouraged from voting me? Was it D1 when I really wasn't up for discussion? D2 when Blarg was making life miserable for anybody town aligned and Bronx was another candidate? D3 when Bronx made his slip and crash and burned? Or today when people seemed all gungho on nin? Your own FA made it easier to get yourself lynched and also gave you a reason not to end the day with an incriminating vote.

What I've seen of your arguments today haven't convinced me otherwise. Nah, I'm doing this, and I doubt I'll be changing who I vote for.

Vote: OceanicAir

Also, reading back, I find that you barely ever mentioned or interacted with Bronx. I guess that's several people, since Bronx wasn't all that active, but I believe the first time that Bronx even mentions you is this post, going out of his way to question why someone would vote for you. Why would Bronx even care, based on all of his other comments? This stands out, for that reason:



The only other time you, OA, mention Bronx is as a null read, here: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=230080730&postcount=1342

After that, you start arguing against him way more when he's caught in his lie.

Heh, and I came across this Blarg post. It stands out to me, for some reason:

And here you admit that I like many others didn't interact with Bronx Then you say that because Bronx asked Blarg why he did a random out of thin air vote for me is suspicious, because it couldn't be that Bronx was trying to play concerned town like when he was "raging" about Terra's suicide? There's plenty of other people that I've made minimal contact with since this game has started, I've pretty much only engaged you, Natiko, Sorian, Ty, Stan, and Royal.

Also of note, Natiko had a slight town read for Bronx on D2 where as far as I can see it was mainly nulls for everyone else. Also came to his defense here later at that. But I'll go into this more a bit later.

I find OA scummy obviously but the staying hushed on Bronx's role claim isn't really my main concern. It's more the bigger issue of what Natiko is pointing out. There isn't a consistency to him throughout out the game. A lot of what he says does not mesh with his view points from earlier in the game. I point to the example that I notice a lot more because it's about me (his reactions throughout the game to my claim) but you see it in other areas as well like what Natiko is harping on. The easy answer of him also lacking votes all over the place is still glaring as well.

Putting the cart before the horse, I think for better or worse, nin was on the chopping block today (notice his stalling by the way, wasn't he going to come chat us a bit?) and both OA and Flux have off voted him. I guess it really means nothing because if nin is scum then one of them is town anyway but it struck me as odd when OA did it.

I'm aware I'm not contributing much today but I'm in a position where I think I have scum narrowed down to 2 out of 3 and assuming no role fuckery (which at this point it would take exactly a vote thief), we have two mislynches so math has it. I'm convinced of Natiko, I'm convinced of Stanley (Natiko put it into words better than I could but Stanley's questions yesterday to Bronx were just too real, that wasn't scum posturing to scum). I'm convinced of Star. That leaves Flux as my only eh feeling so I'm kind of falling on meta there to say he is town.

My viewpoints have been as consistent as yours on my FA apparently.

I don't care at the moment, it makes sense as a forbidden action, I'm just hoping it isn't a constant topic through the day.

Assuming Bronx is scum then Star and KK are both town, if he isn't scum then just Star. With the flow of this game, I expect two more obvious scum and one that's more hiding in plain sight. nin seems clearly scum to me and then I think it's between OA and Stanley for another but my money is more on OA. Neither has posted a lot but Stanley seems more comfortable with his points. Not to mention, I never really trusted OA's FA claim to begin with. Flux is an odd case to me but he was the one person I was forgetting before I had to go look at the player list but this just doesn't feel like his scum game. He's not into it enough. That leaves the last scum between you and Natiko and I'd vote you just on the basis of today. You were both doing fine up until this point but Natiko's responses to things still feel pure, you're scum game tends to get more frantic as time goes on and that is how I would define your prods on people today.

So which is it now? This is a far bigger difference between what I've said about your roles. I said it was awfully convenient and went to skeptical, so I don't see a major jump. You say it makes sense as an FA and now you never really trusted it? And I don't want to hear about convenient FAs and claims that discourage Sir Commuter, when your entire game has revolved around a convenient claim. Especially when you bemoan the fact that you die early and happen to get an role that gives a reason to stay alive for a while.
--------
If I had the ability to override two people nin, I'd probably do Sorian and Natiko since it's the only way they'd die apparently and my gut is telling me quite clearly that it is one of them
---
And here I go mega-posting again after I said I wouldn't in Gods ¯\_(&#12484_/¯

 

[Ty4on]

Also now, I believe that we're in the 12 hour zone where you can't vote right Ty?

Also, can you post your reads list? I'm gonna do one myself later.

And out of Natiko and Sorian, who do you think is most likely to be scum?

I want to get to Sorian/natiko/flux posts when I get to a computer.

Yes, I'm also at work so I probably couldn't vote either way.

I think Sorian is more likely to scum than Natiko. You and Nin are probably the top two right now tho.

 

[nin1000]

Thanks OA, will coin flip in the next couple of hours.

 

[nin1000]

whoevery you guys chose, i will follow suit.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Nope, no risk at all. Also, I ended the previous day with a vote on you so it can't be that either.

It's interesting that clearly your immediate thought was that I was talking about a forbidden action, when that didn't even come to mind. I thought we already proved that your FA wasn't about voting in the previous day phase? Yet you felt the need to really hammer that point.

When I was talking about "risk," I meant the concept of leaving a paper trail or letting your true intentions be known through action. When you don't vote, you aren't held responsible for anything that may happen, good or bad. That's the point: you don't need to worry about being scrutinized for your decision making because you haven't actually made any this whole game.

Because I'm curious, think it could help catch scum, and nothing bad has occurred from it? And the last time a scum came up with a claim, it went splendidly right? Especially with nearly 2 weeks to come up with at that lol, Just admit it, more scum deaths have occurred than outed PRs from my prodding, especially since PRs had outed themselves for some reason or another (or died without claiming)

You think Bronx's death is the result of your prodding? The reason he died was because he made up an "Ultimate" name for himself without thinking about the fact that it meant he's supposed to be a Power Role. It had nothing to do with Forbidden Actions. The only thing your prodding has led to is confusion and nothingness. How did you expect that revealing FAs would help catch scum? The only time I could say it happened is Faddy (who was a neutral) who stupidly lied about his, said so openly, and paid the price for it.

What people have been discouraged from voting me? Was it D1 when I really wasn't up for discussion? D2 when Blarg was making life miserable for anybody town aligned and Bronx was another candidate? D3 when Bronx made his slip and crash and burned? Or today when people seemed all gungho on nin? Your own FA made it easier to get yourself lynched and also gave you a reason not to end the day with an incriminating vote.

Discouraged in the sense that the excuse of "Don't vote for me, or a townie might be a bonus lynch in this day phase." Whether or not that forced people away from voting for you or not, you were one of the people who claimed the earliest, so that reality was naturally present throughout the whole game. An excuse that you could still use to prevent people from voting for you, if it started to look dangerous for you.

And here you admit that I like many others didn't interact with Bronx Then you say that because Bronx asked Blarg why he did a random out of thin air vote for me is suspicious, because it couldn't be that Bronx was trying to play concerned town like when he was "raging" about Terra's suicide? There's plenty of other people that I've made minimal contact with since this game has started, I've pretty much only engaged you, Natiko, Sorian, Ty, Stan, and Royal.

And that's why it's not the crux of the reason I voted for you, but it is something I discovered when reading through the thread again. And what would the point be of playing "concerned town" if no one knows you're actually town?

 

[nin1000]

hello Flux,

could you put down your two scum targets besides me ?

 

[FluxWaveZ]

hello Flux,

could you put down your two scum targets besides me ?

Hello. Right now, it's mainly you and OceanicAir. And then I'm becoming increasingly wary of Sorian. I don't think I "scum read" him right now, but I can also easily see it, and that's pretty scary.

 

[Natiko]

I'm at work and can't do a ton of posting and quoting and all that. To just briefly respond to what stuck out to me -

Nin's voting thus far does not inspire confidence. He has avoided voting for anyone that was lynched except Bronx when he very well could have known the result. He says he had to wait for some other votes to roll in since his FA requires he not he the first on a mislynch but go look at the final vote tally and let me know how much his reasoning for being hesitant makes sense once you see it. He's either lying or wasn't paying any attention.

I know I don't have to have anyone's permission to reveal my FA but the longer I don't say it the more scum have to wonder if there's any reasoning behind that. If you think that makes me suspicious so be it, I'm not afraid of having some doubt cast on me if that's what it takes to win.

My top two BESIDES you nin would likely be OA and either Ty or Flux. Hard to say for sure because you would have to flip town and then we would have to see who died tonight.

 

[nin1000]

Nin's voting thus far does not inspire confidence. He has avoided voting for anyone that was lynched except Bronx when he very well could have known the result.

If i was scum, yes lol. I dont know what you are trying to do here. If i was scum i would have voted a lot different. since well i could not have put a vote down at all. Think about it my FA is saying that i be the first or last in a town misslynch.

He says he had to wait for some other votes to roll in since his FA requires he not he the first on a mislynch but go look at the final vote tally and let me know how much his reasoning for being hesitant makes sense once you see it. He's either lying or wasn't paying any attention.

I was paying attention Natiko. You are either scum or not thinking straight.

 

[Natiko]

If i was scum, yes lol. I dont know what you are trying to do here. If i was scum i would have voted a lot different. since well i could not have put a vote down at all. Think about it my FA is saying that i be the first or last in a town misslynch.



I was paying attention Natiko. You are either scum or not thinking straight.

Nin you were the first active vote on the lynch. How am I not thinking straight? Just today you said that's part of why you were waiting.

 

[nin1000]

Nin you were the first active vote on the lynch. How am I not thinking straight? Just today you said that's part of why you were waiting.

Are you talking about the Bronx man Lynch ?

if that is the case, let me remind you that Sorian put a vote down and i followed suit.

 

[Natiko]

Are you talking about the Bronx man Lynch ?

if that is the case, let me remind you that Sorian put a vote down and i followed suit.

Yes, it's the only lynch you've actually been on. I guess this comes down to semantics. I figured your FA only counts active votes just like all the other ones people have mentioned like Flux or OA. Sorian unvoted then later voted again. You're listed as the first active vote.

 

[OceanicAir]

It's interesting that clearly your immediate thought was that I was talking about a forbidden action, when that didn't even come to mind. I thought we already proved that your FA wasn't about voting in the previous day phase? Yet you felt the need to really hammer that point.

Well, when you say some sort of risk attributed to voting then what am I supposed to expect? What sort of risk was attributed to Bronx voting? or AB? What about nin's voting record is radiating scum? There should be a nice juicy trail right?

When I was talking about "risk," I meant the concept of leaving a paper trail or letting your true intentions be known through action. When you don't vote, you aren't held responsible for anything that may happen, good or bad. That's the point: you don't need to worry about being scrutinized for your decision making because you haven't actually made any this whole game.

Not voting is going to get scrutinized as much as voting tho. And who's being held responsible for lynching Blarg? or not lynching on D1? or offing an obviously scum Bronx?

What is townie about anybody's voting record actually? A question for everybody really, should nin be excused because he voted for him before KK pointed it out? Or does voting record not matter anymore?

You think Bronx's death is the result of your prodding? The reason he died was because he made up an "Ultimate" name for himself without thinking about the fact that it meant he's supposed to be a Power Role. It had nothing to do with Forbidden Actions. The only thing your prodding has led to is confusion and nothingness. How did you expect that revealing FAs would help catch scum? The only time I could say it happened is Faddy (who was a neutral) who stupidly lied about his, said so openly, and paid the price for it.

And whose post did he respond to when he made his claim? I've said he was likely to be lynched though. Point still stands no loss to town via prodding.

Discouraged in the sense that the excuse of "Don't vote for me, or a townie might be a bonus lynch in this day phase." Whether or not that forced people away from voting for you or not, you were one of the people who claimed the earliest, so that reality was naturally present throughout the whole game. An excuse that you could still use to prevent people from voting for you, if it started to look dangerous for you.

All kinds of BS.

I've never said that, never even claimed such a thing. Sorian was the first person to even mention that theory. I never used that as an excuse for people not to lynch or vote me. I've even argued that it doesn't even do such a thing. I said people are free to vote me if they think I'm scum and want me to die. My FA has been brought up exponentially more by everybody else that by me.

And your own FA can be argued to a similar effect for scum.

And that's why it's not the crux of the reason I voted for you, but it is something I discovered when reading through the thread again. And what would the point be of playing "concerned town" if no one knows you're actually town?

Terra played concerned town over Blarg and got a bunch of scrutiny. Bronx played concerned town over Terra. Ty has played concerned town over Royal. All did it before any flips and this was on D1!

 

[Ty4on]

*Skim skim skim*

Regarding OA's prodding, look at kingkitty's death. Not sure if anyone have mentioned it, but being that he couldn't claim what his FA was, doesn't he kinda sound like a PR? That's why I'm against it before lylo, it's basically a mass claim. Every PR that has flipped had an FA related to their role.

 

[OceanicAir]

I'm at work and can't do a ton of posting and quoting and all that. To just briefly respond to what stuck out to me -

Nin's voting thus far does not inspire confidence. He has avoided voting for anyone that was lynched except Bronx when he very well could have known the result. He says he had to wait for some other votes to roll in since his FA requires he not he the first on a mislynch but go look at the final vote tally and let me know how much his reasoning for being hesitant makes sense once you see it. He's either lying or wasn't paying any attention.

I know I don't have to have anyone's permission to reveal my FA but the longer I don't say it the more scum have to wonder if there's any reasoning behind that. If you think that makes me suspicious so be it, I'm not afraid of having some doubt cast on me if that's what it takes to win.

My top two BESIDES you nin would likely be OA and either Ty or Flux. Hard to say for sure because you would have to flip town and then we would have to see who died tonight.

Is mislynching town a good thing now? Isn't that what mafia is trying to do? I'm not getting that argument about his voting record regarding lynching considering nobody was lynched D1, D2 only had 4 people on a mislynch (i guess 5 if you include star), and D3 was Bronx but he voted for him before KK noticed his slip. Besides it's pretty much impossible for everybody in the game to be on a lynch everyday lol. Somebody has to be left out.

 

[StarSketch]

*Skim skim skim*

Regarding OA's prodding, look at kingkitty's death. Not sure if anyone have mentioned it, but being that he couldn't claim what his FA was, doesn't he kinda sound like a PR? That's why I'm against it before lylo, it's basically a mass claim. Every PR that has flipped had an FA related to their role.

I think the question here is how many Town power roles are even left?

 

[Natiko]

It's more that scum know relatively the results of a lynch before hand and if they can see town get lynched without having to intervene then that's a great situation for them. Had nin voted for one of the main candidates D1 when only scum know who isn't scum we would have had a lynch, but he stayed to the side on someone that was in fact scum. Avoids being associated with a mislynch and gives him bonus points later. Remember that up until literally the last moment it wasn't a tie. I know this isn't some new concept and you know very well these arguments have appeared in plenty of mafia games before.

 

[nin1000]

It's more that scum know relatively the results of a lynch before hand and if they can see town get lynched without having to intervene then that's a great situation for them. Had nin voted for one of the main candidates D1 when only scum know who isn't scum we would have had a lynch, but he stayed to the side on someone that was in fact scum...

just to make it clear. i stayed on the side on someone that turned out to be scum.
I cant know beforehand.

 

[OceanicAir]

*Skim skim skim*

Regarding OA's prodding, look at kingkitty's death. Not sure if anyone have mentioned it, but being that he couldn't claim what his FA was, doesn't he kinda sound like a PR? That's why I'm against it before lylo, it's basically a mass claim. Every PR that has flipped had an FA related to their role.

You are aware that Natiko is the only who hasn't claimed right? Going by this logic Natiko must die tomorrow night, right? Because he hasn't claimed, must be a PR. Unlike the rest of us unwashed masses that don't seem to have an FA related to a PR (sans Sorian and Star)

I think the question here is how many Town power roles are even left?

Also, how many scum PRs is a good one.

It's more that scum know relatively the results of a lynch before hand and if they can see town get lynched without having to intervene then that's a great situation for them. Had nin voted for one of the main candidates D1 when only scum know who isn't scum we would have had a lynch, but he stayed to the side on someone that was in fact scum. Avoids being associated with a mislynch and gives him bonus points later. Remember that up until literally the last moment it wasn't a tie. I know this isn't some new concept and you know very well these arguments have appeared in plenty of mafia games before.

AB and Bronx had no qualms about voting. Who's even looked at D1 to give bonus points to people? And has anybody got any negative points for lynching Blarg?

 

[Natiko]

My bad everyone. I forgot scum teams unanimously do the exact same things and that not voting or refusing to pick between actual lynch targets is a very pro-town move.

 

[Natiko]

Sorry for getting frustrated but OA is essentially disregarding what I'm saying just for the sake of being argumentative. If you think I'm scum that's fine, build your case and let everyone decide. I stand by the lynch on Blarg and can go quote the extensive argument I had with him about his repeated lies. Sorry that I didn't see him outright refusing to address questions and think that looked like town play. I have meetings for most the day but I'll pop in close to the deadline and make sure we aren't in a tie situation.

 

[FluxWaveZ]

Well, when you say some sort of risk attributed to voting then what am I supposed to expect? What sort of risk was attributed to Bronx voting? or AB? What about nin's voting record is radiating scum? There should be a nice juicy trail right?

The risk that voting patterns would be an indication of his alignment? Voting patterns are a crucial element of this game and if you're trying to dismiss that to justify your own behavior, well... I dunno what to say.

Not voting is going to get scrutinized as much as voting tho. And who's being held responsible for lynching Blarg? or not lynching on D1? or offing an obviously scum Bronx?

What is townie about anybody's voting record actually? A question for everybody really, should nin be excused because he voted for him before KK pointed it out? Or does voting record not matter anymore?

Again, see the above. Your approach and argument towards your lack of voting is doing the opposite of what you want it to. For example, in the Persona mafia game, I was correctly pinned as town by the other players because of a last minute vote of mine that ended up lynching scum on D1. That also subsequently got me killed off. Voting has that kind of power, and also has the opposite ability, like how Faddy was going to get grilled for tying the vote on D1, but he was killed on N1 before that happened.

And this is a dynamic you refuse to engage with. You've used the excuse that not voting will bring about the same scrutiny as voting, but one is actually helpful to us, and the other isn't.

It's absolute fact that you haven't contributed at all to using your most powerful tool to discovering and lynching scum. Not even in Bronx's case. This is the epitome of "playing it safe," and choosing not to engage since, as you said yourself, you vote only for people who you're certain of. When we're all relatively uncertain, because that's the nature of this game, then that is a real neat excuse for never voting.

All kinds of BS.

I've never said that, never even claimed such a thing. Sorian was the first person to even mention that theory. I never used that as an excuse for people not to lynch or vote me. I've even argued that it doesn't even do such a thing. I said people are free to vote me if they think I'm scum and want me to die. My FA has been brought up exponentially more by everybody else that by me.

And your own FA can be argued to a similar effect for scum.

I don't care if you've said it or not: that's the nature of revealing your forbidden action to everyone else. You don't dictate how everyone behaves or will react. You're arguing that you're supposedly town, right? Then, naturally, some may hesitate to vote for you because of the fear that, even if you're not the lynch target, you could get lynched anyways.

But you're right: I'm free to vote for you if I think you're scum. And so I am.

And I like how there's the recurring theme throughout your recent arguments of trying to direct the focus onto others, instead of simply defending yourself.

Terra played concerned town over Blarg and got a bunch of scrutiny. Bronx played concerned town over Terra. Ty has played concerned town over Royal. All did it before any flips and this was on D1!

Yeah? And Terrabyte turned out to be town. We don't know Ty's alignment. But we do know Bronx was scum. Of course he'd know others' alignment. The example I brought up isn't just Bronx screaming at others once Terra killed himself and he flipped, it was a pre-emptive defense before anything actually happened to you.

You're scum.

 

[Ty4on]

Anyone who has time: I think Splinter's reads could be helpful to read. Dunno how well he structured them tho

 

[Ty4on]

The reads of Royal too

 

[OceanicAir]

My bad everyone. I forgot scum teams unanimously do the exact same things and that not voting or refusing to pick between actual lynch targets is a very pro-town move.

Not saying it is pro-town. It is in mafia's best interest to mislynch and it was a relatively free one on D1. And you could say the same thing for KK, or Kark or even Blarg (to save himself even) that could have swayed the vote on D1, and they were all town. And nin couldn't even sway his vote if his FA is to be believed. I think you using his voting record like this is a weak argument in regards to nin. Take the other side of it, he voted to lynch Bronx on two different days.

And people shouldn't just lynch for the sake of lynching either if they don't believe either target is scum. Now that isn't pro-town.

Sorry for getting frustrated but OA is essentially disregarding what I'm saying just for the sake of being argumentative. If you think I'm scum that's fine, build your case and let everyone decide. I stand by the lynch on Blarg and can go quote the extensive argument I had with him about his repeated lies. Sorry that I didn't see him outright refusing to address questions and think that looked like town play. I have meetings for most the day but I'll pop in close to the deadline and make sure we aren't in a tie situation.

Also, that's my point. I don't think that his lynch was scummy. It was a relatively simple lynch that anybody could join without repercussions since he was so anti-town. Leading to me saying that anyone that voted him aren't getting positive or negative points.

The risk that voting patterns would be an indication of his alignment? Voting patterns are a crucial element of this game and if you're trying to dismiss that to justify your own behavior, well... I dunno what to say.

I'm saying voting record is vastly overstated, especially in this particular game. Especially when there is no hard and fast reason as to why nin/AB/Bronx could be scum with their vote that I see.

Again, see the above. Your approach and argument towards your lack of voting is doing the opposite of what you want it to. For example, in the Persona mafia game, I was correctly pinned as town by the other players because of a last minute vote of mine that ended up lynching scum on D1. That also subsequently got me killed off. Voting has that kind of power, and also has the opposite ability, like how Faddy was going to get grilled for tying the vote on D1, but he was killed on N1 before that happened.

Nothing has come up that is even remotely similar in this game though. Which is why in this particular case I'm calling it overstated. We've had two non-controversial lynches this game not exactly fertile grounds to examine records..

And this is a dynamic you refuse to engage with. You've used the excuse that not voting will bring about the same scrutiny as voting, but one is actually helpful to us, and the other isn't.

It's absolute fact that you haven't contributed at all to using your most powerful tool to discovering and lynching scum. Not even in Bronx's case. This is the epitome of "playing it safe," and choosing not to engage since, as you said yourself, you vote only for people who you're certain of. When we're all relatively uncertain, because that's the nature of this game, then that is a real neat excuse for never voting.

But your argument is that I avoided voting to get away from scrutiny. And Ty didn't use power to vote in two consecutive days (today or yesterday, and even I don't care about yesterday), oh noes! Does it mean he's confirmed scum too? I think voting after Bronx was caught out means absolutely nothing at all and you'd use that against me even if I did end the day on him, so whatever.

I don't care if you've said it or not: that's the nature of revealing your forbidden action to everyone else. You don't dictate how everyone behaves or will react. You're arguing that you're supposedly town, right? Then, naturally, some may hesitate to vote for you because of the fear that, even if you're not the lynch target, you could get lynched anyways.

But you're right: I'm free to vote for you if I think you're scum. And so I am.

And I like how there's the recurring theme throughout your recent arguments of trying to direct the focus onto others, instead of simply defending yourself.

Do you believe that my FA is true and exist to keep mafia alive for longer as opposed to hinderance?

As it stands, two people are dying today, one person I know is town and the other I'm fairly confident isn't. So naturally I'm going to direct attention to others, when nobody else is even remotely interested in considering someone else which you'll have to do tomorrow.

Yeah? And Terrabyte turned out to be town. We don't know Ty's alignment. But we do know Bronx was scum. Of course he'd know others' alignment. The example I brought up isn't just Bronx screaming at others once Terra killed himself and he flipped, it was a pre-emptive defense before anything actually happened to you.

You're scum.

Literally nothing came up off of Blarg's vote and he even did it again later without it getting any traction and bronx was pro-terra even before he flipped. Bronx asked why he voted for me out of the blue 2 and half pages

Spoiler

(100ppp 4lyfe)

into the game and that's a defense of me? Hell, kark even called it odd before bronx said anything. Good grief.