Wow, the ethics of some people are quite surprising. That anyone would openly defend Sony for stealing from their customers is just awful.
And you obviously cannot say that this doesn't concern a larger issue at some point; people letting companies rob and exploit their consumers with no repercussions.
It's just no ok on any level.
If, for some reason, they thought that some people could exploit the game to gain access to their servers, and had to remove it cause of that...... well, then they shouldn't sell the game to begin with, if there was any risk of that.
They force the consumers to buy a game through their servers/channels, and then they take the games back because that very option let hackers exploit their servers?
.................
Obviously there should be a big warning on their front page letting consumers know that they might take the game back from them at any moment without any refund cause hackers might be exploiting the game to get access to Sony.
Where does stealing come into the picture here? Honest question. Suspending something is not the same as stealing. It will only be stealing if they never return the service/product and dont offer a refund. There are no words on if the product will return or if it will be premanently removed, but one guy got a refund already, and that is a good sign at least.
The all-DD future hit me in another way on Tuesday when I heard that Atlus had reduced many of their PSP game prices on PSN.
In the last two weeks I had purchased Persona 1 and P3P through the service at $39.99 each. Around last Saturday, they were both dropped in price to about half. If I had bought either of these titles at a store, chances are I would have been offered 14-30 day price protection, letting me take them back and recovering the difference after price drop. Not so for DD, though - looks like I'm stuck. But it's a good thing I DID buy them when I did because apparently these games aren't even on the store anymore! You have to buy them on a PS3 now - which I don't have - and transfer them.
I think it should depend on when games get delisted. If you just bought it, you should get refunded, but older purchasers shouldn't. In any space ever, if you buy something, there's like a warranty or whatever. If, after that time period, something happens and your item can't be used anymore, you can't get a full refund.
Digital should be the same way. You paid for something two years ago? Well that's long enough that I think it's fair if you don't get a full refund.
It's unreasonable to think the host has to keep the thing on the servers for eternity or they have to refund everyone who ever bought it.
Am I being anti-consumer enough? Maybe I'm a Sony representative in hiding.
EDIT: Zoe made the same point in a much more concise way. I'm stupid.
Where does stealing come into the picture here? Honest question. Suspending something is not the same as stealing. It will only be stealing if they never return the service/product and dont offer a refund. There are no words on if the product will return or if it will be premanently removed, but one guy got a refund already, and that is a good sign at least.
They should even offer something more. Let's say you're still in the middle of playing something and want to get to the end... and all your efforts are gone. Or you're OCD about completing all your games 100% and now your trophy list is stuck with one "19%" because you only just got started with this one.
Really after the whole PSN debacle they should at least say something.
im sure not everyone would be happy no matter what they do. but sony has lost all goodwill ive had towards them since the beginning of the PS3 they really need to step it up to get even some of it back.
Even a email to owners (or renters, however you look at it) like we removed these games for x reason you can get a refund, or something, going through this ridiculous process here.
The all-DD future hit me in another way on Tuesday when I heard that Atlus had reduced many of their PSP game prices on PSN.
In the last two weeks I had purchased Persona 1 and P3P through the service at $39.99 each. Around last Saturday, they were both dropped in price to about half. If I had bought either of these titles at a store, chances are I would have been offered 14-30 day price protection, letting me take them back and recovering the difference after price drop. Not so for DD, though - looks like I'm stuck. But it's a good thing I DID buy them when I did because apparently these games aren't even on the store anymore! You have to buy them on a PS3 now - which I don't have - and transfer them.
Which is strange, I was on my Vita Store last night and found all three Persona games listed that I could buy, I only own Persona 3 Portable but plan to get the other two.
Well if you backed up the game to your PC using their software, then tried to move it back onto your PSP, it will no longer authenticate it. That's as good as deleting it from your HD in my book.
Which is strange, I was on my Vita Store last night and found all three Persona games listed that I could buy, I only own Persona 3 Portable but plan to get the other two.
I agree with that (i actually wrote that myself in another thread yesterday), but it is still too early to say in my opinion. I will only call it stealing if there is intention to remove it forever and intention not to refund.
The purchaser shouldn't even have to contact Sony. The moment they delist the game, they should be crediting the buyer with the purchase price.
They should even offer something more. Let's say you're still in the middle of playing something and want to get to the end... and all your efforts are gone. Or you're OCD about completing all your games 100% and now your trophy list is stuck with one "19%" because you only just got started with this one.
Immediate refund + apology + small PSN credit or other freebie = satisfaction.
The all-DD future hit me in another way on Tuesday when I heard that Atlus had reduced many of their PSP game prices on PSN.
In the last two weeks I had purchased Persona 1 and P3P through the service at $39.99 each. Around last Saturday, they were both dropped in price to about half. If I had bought either of these titles at a store, chances are I would have been offered 14-30 day price protection, letting me take them back and recovering the difference after price drop. Not so for DD, though - looks like I'm stuck. But it's a good thing I DID buy them when I did because apparently these games aren't even on the store anymore! You have to buy them on a PS3 now - which I don't have - and transfer them.
People have been giving warnings about this for years. When you buy digital you are giving up a lot of your rights to that product, and you're options are greatly limited.
I haven't bought a single retail game for my Vita digitally, and I don't plan on ever doing so.
Just of the phone with costumer support. They have apparently gotten a memo and Sony will refund the money to my PSN account in the next 14 days. Seems like they just weren't aware of the problem when I first called. Maybe a mod can change the title to include the "Sony offers refund after being asked".
Still not the best possible service but I'm content with this solution.
I think it should depend on when games get delisted. If you just bought it, you should get refunded, but older purchasers shouldn't. In any space ever, if you buy something, there's like a warranty or whatever. If, after that time period, something happens and your item can't be used anymore, you can't get a full refund.
Digital should be the same way. You paid for something two years ago? Well that's long enough that I think it's fair if you don't get a full refund.
It's unreasonable to think the host has to keep the thing on the servers for eternity or they have to refund everyone who ever bought it.
Am I being anti-consumer enough? Maybe I'm a Sony representative in hiding.
EDIT: Zoe made the same point in a much more concise way. I'm stupid.
Actually, one of the potential points of DD is that "nothing ever goes out of print". DD is not just about convenience, but a tool to eliminate the effect of scarcity.
Not buying a physical product is a noticeable trade-off for going digitial; early on Apple didn't want to deal with tracking purchases for life with regards to iTunes music, but even they've caught up and now allow you to re-download any songs previously purchases on any device, no matter how long ago you purchased them. (I checked, out of curiosity. I've got iTunes purchases from years ago still available to redownload.)
So I think it's reasonable, in point of fact, to expect the digital age to take full advantage of the fact that "nothing goes out of print".
Having to refund everyone who ever bought something is a different issue; when you buy a physical product, it's not required to refund you ten years later. But then, you're getting a physical product that has intrinsic external value and it will be there ten years later (if you don't physically destroy it.)
I don't think companies should have to refund someone who buys a digital purchases years later... but along with that, yes, I think if they want the digital age to actually work, they're going to have to keep the data available for redownload. The concept that they shouldn't doesn't even work with the "cloud" age we're moving into. If everyone wants to replace local storage that you own and can protect with remote cloud storage, said cloud storage cannot have a shelf date.
And of course, the fact that it isn't reasonable to expect an infinite grace period on refunds has to be balanced by the fact that the purchased information will never be taken away.
As has been pointed out, the fact that Sony's own backup software no longer allows you to transfer copies of these removed purchases is a critical point. There is no reason for Sony to have removed this software from previous purchasers' download history. Hell, with the way the Vita works, it is more locked down in terms of accounts and software authorization than the PS3 and PSP. You CANNOT share software in the same way, and that includes PSP game images. So... why the panic Sony? Why nuke the games for current owners? That hasn't been done in any cases of DD so far, when issues cause a game to be delisted from new sales.
I always thought Sony were being jerks for taking it off download history lists - just make it not available for sale anymore if it's causing problems.
I don't think Sony's actions are in any way justified. I also don't think it's reasonable to expect a full refund for a game you bought two years ago.
I agree with all the other issues and I think your post was excellent in expressing them.
This does bring a question up, and I am honestly unaware if it has already been covered...and they do not honestly have to do completely with this situation.
Where is the standing on degrading value of a digital game?
I mean, if you buy it obviously right after you open it the value has dropped and changed.
So at what point is it possible or reasonable to expect a decrease in value of a digital product?
I know that on paper it obviously is exactly the same as it was when you bought it, but there may have been price drops, sales and whatever and the game may be clearanced out everywhere.
Also, at what point (if obviously it was well stated) would it become more of the buyers responsibility to back up their purchases instead of relying on it being on a server somewhere to grab whenever or would it never fall to the buyer?
So... why the panic Sony? Why nuke the games for current owners? That hasn't been done in any cases of DD so far, when issues cause a game to be delisted from new sales.
Yea, I don't get this either. Games are removed from Steam from time to time but if you've already purchased it, it remains in your Steam library for good.
For example, Crysis 2 is no longer available for purchase through Steam, but if you purchased it prior to being delisted, it's still available on their servers and you can download it again at any time.
This does bring a question up, and I am honestly unaware if it has already been covered...and they do not honestly have to do completely with this situation.
Where is the standing on degrading value of a digital game?
I mean, if you buy it obviously right after you open it the value has dropped and changed.
So at what point is it possible or reasonable to expect a decrease in value of a digital product?
I know that on paper it obviously is exactly the same as it was when you bought it, but there may have been price drops, sales and whatever and the game may be clearanced out everywhere.
Also, at what point (if obviously it was well stated) would it become more of the buyers responsibility to back up their purchases instead of relying on it being on a server somewhere to grab whenever or would it never fall to the buyer?
A digital title always had a zero dollar value to me, since its basically something that is physically inexistent and 'belongs' to you in a very specific way that makes it impossible to re-sell or trade or whatever.
The thing here, I think, is that even if you backed up your copy and put it on the Vita afterward the game won't be available to play after the update, correct me if I'm wrong.
I think Sony should go one further, and contact anyone who bought the game in the past via their PSN account and let them know that they have to remove the game, why they have decided to do this, whether or not they expect the game back up on PSN and when, and how the purchaser can contact Sony for a refund/compensation (if warranted).
If they had done that when they pulled Motorstorm AE from PSN and said "we'll have the game back in 10 weeks" or something like that, I would not have asked for the refund. It's the surreptitious nature of the removal that had me demanding a refund immediately - they basically took away something I purchased right of access to without informing me at all, and that kind of pissed me off... (not very, but a little faux righteous indignation can go a long way toward a refund request)... The only reason I can see for not informing everyone what's going on is fear of a backlash against PSN's DD service or not wanting to face a flood of demands for refunds...
"We're removing this product you paid for from your download list because we believe you might pirate PSP games" doesn't sound like a nice e-mail to write, specially to your most loyal fanbase, the early adopters.
They could take the entire PSP library down next month for all I care, the least they should do is keep their paying customers informed ahead of time so they can plan ahead. Of course, you'd probably be thanking them for clearing your backlog or something...
They could take the entire PSP library down next month for all I care, the least they should do is keep their paying customers informed ahead of time so they can plan ahead. Of course, you'd probably be thanking them for clearing your backlog or something...
I always thought Sony were being jerks for taking it off download history lists - just make it not available for sale anymore if it's causing problems.
I don't think Sony's actions are in any way justified. I also don't think it's reasonable to expect a full refund for a game you bought two years ago.
I agree with all the other issues and I think your post was excellent in expressing them.
You know, I agree with this "in principal", but being on the receiving end of the "WTF, where's my game?" moment gives me pause... Certainly, some kind of compensation is in order, even if they're taking back an "older" game?
While waiting for Sony to respond to my request, I had decided that if they offered me a PSN credit equal to the current DD price of Motorstorm AE I would be satisfied with that. However, having received a refund on the full initial purchase price, I'm not going to offer them anything back... I would also think that a "minimum" PSN credit of $20 wouldn't be a bad idea for cases such as this - since it's just DD credit anyway, Sony wouldn't really be "losing" much (if anything), and if your $40 game had come down to $10 over the years, it would help lessen the sting...
(aside: I bought Corpse Party, Parasite Eve II and Hustle Kings Vita with the credit I received... Thanks again, Sony!
To be fair, though, this isn't the equivalent of a customer playing a game and then trying to return it to the shop for a full refund afterwards. Taking measures to prevent that is completely reasonable - you don't want people getting over on retailers.
This is more like the store sending an employee to someone's house to repossess a physical purchase - arbitrarily, since the customer had already paid in full for it - and giving them nothing in exchange. 'Hey, we know you bought this, but we're taking it back now. Oh, and we're going to keep your money, too.' Not cool, IMO.
I'm glad they seem to be offering refunds to people who ask for them now, though I also think you shouldn't have to ask - accounts of the affected customers should've been credited automatically.
You know, I agree with this "in principal", but being on the receiving end of the "WTF, where's my game?" moment gives me pause... Certainly, some kind of compensation is in order, even if they're taking back an "older" game?
While waiting for Sony to respond to my request, I had decided that if they offered me a PSN credit equal to the current DD price of Motorstorm AE I would be satisfied with that. However, having received a refund on the full initial purchase price, I'm not going to offer them anything back... I would also think that a "minimum" PSN credit of $20 wouldn't be a bad idea for cases such as this - since it's just DD credit anyway, Sony wouldn't really be "losing" much (if anything), and if your $40 game had come down to $10 over the years, it would help lessen the sting...
(aside: I bought Corpse Party, Parasite Eve II and Hustle Kings Vita with the credit I received... Thanks again, Sony!
It's not really about how old the game is but how long from your date of purchase.
Though I know I would be unhappy too if something I had disappeared from the servers. It's something that I think hard about before every digital purchase I make. But I think getting credit for a game you bought a significant time ago being removed is a nice gesture, not a reasonable demand or even expected behaviour on the providers' part.
As a side note: I'm sure no one cares, but in case someone wants to question my consistency with DD I figured I should mention - I'm okay with DD-only for games that were meant to be DD in the first place. I'm just not okay with DD-only for titles that have full retail releases elsewhere but is brought in DD-only form to other region(s).
This is more like the store sending an employee to someone's house to repossess a physical purchase - arbitrarily, since the customer had already paid in full for it - and giving them nothing in exchange. 'Hey, we know you bought this, but we're taking it back now. Oh, and we're going to keep your money, too.' Not cool, IMO.
I'm glad they seem to be offering refunds to people who ask for them now, though I also think you shouldn't have to ask - accounts of the affected customers should've been credited automatically.
It's not though, If you the game on your PSP than you can play it. they never took it away if you already have it installed and either way I would ask for a refund.
It's not though, If you the game on your PSP than you can play it. they never took it away if you already have it installed and either way I would ask for a refund.
I understand that. But looking at how many times I've had to delete one game from my memory stick to make room for another - which wasn't a problem, because I knew I could always go back and redownload those old purchases again later - it's easy to see how people can end up getting burned by something like this.
This is more like the store sending an employee to someone's house to repossess a physical purchase. 'Hey, we know you bought this, but we're taking it back now. Oh, and we're going to keep your money, too.' Not cool, IMO.
People have been giving warnings about this for years. When you buy digital you are giving up a lot of your rights to that product, and you're options are greatly limited.
I haven't bought a single retail game for my Vita digitally, and I don't plan on ever doing so.
Sony handled this very poorly. I don't understand why they nix download rights from current owners? Reality is, the people that can do "damage" already have access to these games, so they're just punishing consumers...
It's not though, If you the game on your PSP than you can play it. they never took it away if you already have it installed and either way I would ask for a refund.
The more ominous problem with how they're handling this (so far) is that moving forward with Vita, it's tighter account security means that even if you have the data installed your hands are tied with protecting your own purchase.
Unless I've been misinformed, because they're removing the games from your actual account history, the Vita will not think you own the file anymore if you try to restore it from your own backup made using Vita's content manager.
So... when Sony delists a game in this manner, they are preventing the end customer from backing up their own files, or managing their own files. On their own PS3 or PC.
The Vita is designed to transfer digital games back and forth as you manage space, one reason the PS3 can act as a base station and storage center.
So, Sony is reaching in and preventing you from managing your own software if it's no longer available on their servers. That seems like the direct equivalent of sending someone to your house to disable functions on physical games you own that puts the continued use of those games in question.
Sony handled this very poorly. I don't understand why they nix download rights from current owners? Reality is, the people that can do "damage" already have access to these games, so they're just punishing consumers...
From the outside, it basically looks like it's just a part of Sony's "send out the ninjas" reaction to anyone potentially modifying Playstation firmware. Removing the games entirely so that even original owners instantly lose access and download history seems like an overkill attempt to wipe the offending games from existence and prevent anyone, in any way, from getting new copies of the files.
If you think about the logic there, by the way, it's basically "we don't trust you people who bought these games legally to not be dirty pirates. You may download these again - even though you paid for them, we know - and use the files to hack our firmware! Bad, bad customers."
So, Sony is reaching in and preventing you from managing your own software if it's no longer available on their servers. That seems like the direct equivalent of sending someone to your house to disable functions on physical games you own that puts the continued use of those games in question.
The analog for physical is that they come to your house and take back a game if it is sitting on your shelf. But if you happened to have somehow had the disc for the game in question in your console at the time they let you keep it, but with the provision if you ever remove that disc they will take it back at that point.
Digital media isn't the problem here, it's DRM. I'm perfectly willing to manage my own backups of my digital purchases in the event that I can't redownload them in the future, however if Sony can still prevent my backup from working at their discretion it's pretty much a wasted effort on my part.
Both games are back on the PS Store now. I dont see Everybody's Tennis in the list, but it does appear if you manually search for it. And it should be in your download list as well if you already bought it.
Both games are back on the PS Store now. I dont see Everybody's Tennis in the list, but it does appear if you manually search for it. And it should be in your download list as well if you already bought it.
Both games are back on the PS Store now. I dont see Everybody's Tennis in the list, but it does appear if you manually search for it. And it should be in your download list as well if you already bought it.
I always back-up everything I got from DD. Yes it takes some space but I'll still have everything I have paid for even if every DD service would suddenly crash.
Unfortunately not always - case in point the PSN, where Sony sometime back released a new PS3 firmware which forced you to re-download e.g. PSP games, that you already had "backed up" previously if you wanted to transfer these to your handheld using the new firmware.
So still if you'd done your due dilligence and backed up your Motorstorm PSP copy on your PS3's HDD, well now it's gone in effect :-D
Edit; apart from the fact that they're back - as noted above :-D ... well that's the end of that I guess
