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Developers Discuss Benefits Of Targeting 720p/30fps Next Gen, Using Film Aesthetics
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
I'd be up for this.
Of course ideally you'd apply the same logic to 1080p, but perhaps thats unacheiveable just at the moment.
I don't fully understand the argument that at 1080p you don't see any full pixel details. Even 1080p is downsampled from film though. You can't say that is lack of detail and you can get the same results from 720p. Its more detail, just ending up as subpixels on a 1080p display.
Of course ideally you'd apply the same logic to 1080p, but perhaps thats unacheiveable just at the moment.
I don't fully understand the argument that at 1080p you don't see any full pixel details. Even 1080p is downsampled from film though. You can't say that is lack of detail and you can get the same results from 720p. Its more detail, just ending up as subpixels on a 1080p display.
Again in response to dark10x: it's unrealistic to ever expect that kind of image quality from a game unless supersampling is involved. What developers are promising is AA + FXAA at best, and I can assure you that while it looks good in screenshots, it doesn't look so good in motion, especially for fine details. Heck, just look at the image problems it can cause with BF3 at 1080p:
(notice the really bad aliasing on the railing)
The problems would be far worse at 720p.
(notice the really bad aliasing on the railing)
The problems would be far worse at 720p.
Reading through this, they seem to endorse using filters and soft image aesthetics to make the difference between different resolutions less noticeable.
That's what they mean by the lack of pixel detail with films.
If they were going to simply use the current methods of FXAA or MSAA rather than truly try something new, I'd agree, but the whole idea of implementing "filmic" methods into visuals would be to produce something that looks unlike games we have today using rendering techniques that touch everything from image quality, to lighting, to the way post processing works, etc.
I have no confidence that this is what we'd see next generation, but I like the idea. My entire points are all conceptual here there's no point in getting so defensive.
It would drive me nuts playing all my games at 60fps.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
Look, I loved the way that Resistance 3 used color-grading in a very filmic way, but these devs are fucking lame if they think it's fine roll with 720p/30 fps as a target again. Shit looks dreadful upscaled and 30 fps really messes with the gameplay.
Fallout-NL
Member
The idea is nice and all, but the fact remains: you cannot achieve this without supersampling. Why is the image quality in Avatar so good? It's not all the post-process filters. It's the fact that the source is 4K resolution.
If they're trying to achieve this through post-processing along current rendering techniques (aka not ray tracing), it's going to have flaws.
bone_and_sinew
breaking down barriers in gratuitous nudity
If this happens, I am done with console gaming.
With current techniques, it's going to look flawed, and I'm not saying there is a magical bullet out there that could solve this without supersampling either, but I don't think we should draw hard conclusions based on what we have today.
Here is a screenshot from Deus Ex:HR that illustrates that 1280 x 720 resolution is good enough to supply a clean, high IQ image
with 4 x SSAA
Damn that is a nice shot.
May I make a request? Can you take some 720p supersampled shots and scale them to 1080p? Can you take the same shots in native 1080p with 4x AA? That would be a nice way to examine the pros and cons of this idea.
Any framerate that isn't an integer multiple of 30 will look wonky because NTSC and PAL60 displays have 60 vertical interrupts per second. As is the case with 3:2 pulldown on movies, displaying some frames for longer than others makes the game look less smooth.
I honestly don't quite get what the nvidia is trying to say. The only way you'd manage to get Film/CG-like IQ would be to render at a much higher resolution than your intended framebuffer and downsample, and then filter the image. Only using filters is really not going to cut it.
The resolution Avatar was filmed at is only 2K, a little above 1080p.
The resolution Avatar was filmed at is only 2K, a little above 1080p.
Here are two screenshots from Deus Ex:HR that illustrates that 1280 x 720 resolution is good enough to supply a clean, high IQ image
with 4 x SSAA
Now tell us what you downsampled from
D10x--I should probably check DF, but I thought BF3, Batman AC, AC R, Uncharted 3, Killzone 3, Infamous 2 all had annoying drops on PS3. Really most games I've played on PS3, especially anything open world. As someone new to pc gaming from PS3, my opinion is that variable 50-60 is way better than whatever PS3 games are running at. I can't say for 360, as I sold mine a few years ago.
A little above 1080p? 4x the pixels is a little?
edit: I'm an idiot. 2K refers to horizontal pixels (2048 x 1556). Still, let's not pretend Avatar uses conventional triangle based rendering as games do.
Now tell us what you downsampled from
He just said so. 4x supersampled (2x2, I assume) would mean 2560 x 1440p (aka the native res of his monitor).
Suggest? I will flat out admit it.
Salacious Crumb
Junior Member
I don't think you can just take what works for a passive viewing experience and expect it to translate to an active viewing experience.
Maybe they mean something like this:
Witcher 2, ubersampling+their postAA, 720p native, lanczos scaled to 1080p.
What's the verdict? Acceptable on 1080p screens? It doesn't actually look terrible when playing it at 720p (scaled to 900p by GPU). Though I'm suprised by how badly it runs still..
Witcher 2, ubersampling+their postAA, 720p native, lanczos scaled to 1080p.
What's the verdict? Acceptable on 1080p screens? It doesn't actually look terrible when playing it at 720p (scaled to 900p by GPU). Though I'm suprised by how badly it runs still..
plagiarize
Banned
720p i can deal with, but we've got to shoot for 60 FPS. there's a reason why Jackson and Cameron are starting to push for filming at higher frame rates.
and if we take Pixar at their word, no, you don't have to super sample to get 'movie quality' aesthetics. they render at 1920 x ____ and MSAA and post process.
i don't remember anyone bitching about the IQ of Wall E.
720p... well, that's going to look great on my native 720p HMZs.
and if we take Pixar at their word, no, you don't have to super sample to get 'movie quality' aesthetics. they render at 1920 x ____ and MSAA and post process.
i don't remember anyone bitching about the IQ of Wall E.
720p... well, that's going to look great on my native 720p HMZs.
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
I'm perfectly happy with 720p.
2x the pixels
and its not just downsampling. Avatar and movie CG does a lot more per pixel to achieve the quality they get. Plus probably a lot less texturing and more polygons so more things are modelled.
It'd be an interesting experiment to take something like Deus Ex or Crysis 2's world models and convert them to run through a Pixar renderman pipeline, apply proper surfaces to them etc, see how they come out then.
Yes, but those games make up a very small percentage of the overall library. You can't simply make that claim and then list off six examples in a library of thousands to prove a point.
Also, variable framerates are awful. 50 fps judders like crazy on a 60 Hz (or higher) display while it would look fine on an old 50 Hz display. When you separate framerate from refresh rate in such a fashion it results in a jerky image.
JoshuaJSlone
Member
I think it's ending the bold too soon to loseNirolak said:
which basically means a less-wasteful form of supersampling.
2K is 2048 lines of horizontal resolution, meaning the resolution Avatar was filmed and rendered at(taking the aspect ratio into account) is 2048 x1156, or thereabouts. So yes, a little over 1080p.
You are thinking of 4K.Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
Didn't Pixar just render out Toy Story 1/2 again for the blu-ray/3d re-release in 4k?
How it runs and plays.
2K is 2048 lines of horizontal resolution, meaning the resolution Avatar was filmed and rendered at(taking the aspect ratio into account) is 2048 x1156, or thereabouts. So yes, a little over 1080p.
Yeah I jumped the gun a bit on that one.
Less wasteful, sure, but the results of supersampling are leagues beyond MSAA. Images may not show it, but a game shimmers a lot in motion with just MSAA. Supersampling results in incredibly IQ which does not shimmer at all in motion.
Though now you can achieve near supersampled results with MSAA + SGSSAA at this point.
Not sure what SGSSAA involves exactly, but it is relatively costly.
CrunchinJelly
formerly cjelly
What is wrong with games looking like games?
Since Sega left the industry
it seems a bunch of bond-headed tech people have taken over gaming.
Companies like Sega prided themselves on the 60fps experience.
Since Sega left the industry
near enough
Companies like Sega prided themselves on the 60fps experience.
JoshuaJSlone
Member
I'd rather look at the 1680x1050 Oblivion I've been playing recently.
I can't believe how quickly people on here make useless posts without even thinking about the topic at hand.
"YOUR DOING 30 FRAMESPS AGAIN!?!?! I"M STICKING WITH NINTENDO CUZ THEY KNOW BEST SO THERE!!!1111"
That adds nothing to the discussion and bares no relevance. It's an ignorant statement that basically ignores the entire point of the article.
edit: ha ha, just two posts below this one someone else actually went there. smh
"YOUR DOING 30 FRAMESPS AGAIN!?!?! I"M STICKING WITH NINTENDO CUZ THEY KNOW BEST SO THERE!!!1111"
That adds nothing to the discussion and bares no relevance. It's an ignorant statement that basically ignores the entire point of the article.
edit: ha ha, just two posts below this one someone else actually went there. smh
What is wrong with wanting to achieve superior visuals? That's precisely what Sega was doing in the 90s, afterall. Filmic need not imply "realism".
Theonik
Member
The way console gaming seems to be going might as well be true. PC gaming save us!I see.
nincompoop
Banned
Welp, looks like I'll be PC and Nintendo exclusive again next gen!
Wiktor
Member
720 is to low. Even on smaller screen it gets blurry. Watching a movie is different, because you're passive viewer, you do not get around to explore and look wherever you want.
Especially in games with lots of tiny details 1080 is a minumum. BF3 and Arkham City both look really bad at 720 when compared to 1080.
Especially in games with lots of tiny details 1080 is a minumum. BF3 and Arkham City both look really bad at 720 when compared to 1080.
plagiarize
Banned
720p 60fps, SMAA and 8xAF. that's my final offer.
No they didn't. We're just throwing supersampled examples out there to show what they 'might' hope to achieve. It's the bar that's being set.
I don't find aiming for mediocrity from the start something to be celebrated