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Developers Discuss Benefits Of Targeting 720p/30fps Next Gen, Using Film Aesthetics
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
Warm Machine
Member
The take away here is that some very smart people think that rendering a better, smoother, less obviously computer graphics image can be done without resorting to processor intensive brute force methods that we have currently been trying.
brain_stew
Member
You can't really judge something like this purely off a still image. All that high frequency detail will shimmer like crazy in motion.
Freezie KO
Banned
In games you have to, you know, interact with shit, so the whole equation between the "viewer" and the image changes drastically.
chaostrophy
Member
This is fine for most games...it's mainly just racing games and fast action games that really need 60fps. Though the 60fps dungeon exploration in Wild Arms 5 was a nice treat. Have any RPGs on PS3 or 360 done 60fps?
brain_stew
Member
If you actually followed the discussion, you'd realise that's exactly what this is about trying to achieve. Even 8xSGSSAA with a standard box filter has fundamental issues with aliasing/shimmering/popping, so we need to explore other approaches.
Its something that he's building into FXAA actually and having MSAA samples to work with allows it to create some very impressive results.
MrTroubleMaker
Gold Member
that's disappointing
I feel the same way
I H8 Memes
Member
I was actually following the discussion. But when they are talking about emulating movies they are talking about much more than clearing up aliasing. They are also (and mostly since they seem to be fucking in love with this crap) talking about all the other post processing that blurs the image. I wouldnt mind it so much if it was a style that only a minority of games use, but it's almost all of them now.
What purpose does it serve for DX:HR to use that garish gold filter? Or worse yet BF3's blue tint all over everything? These effects dont simulate real life. What is GTA4's DOF filter supposed to emulate? I can see further than 50 yards away in real life.
Their argument is that films use these effects and people like it then. Well a game isnt a film. In a movie I only need to see what the director intends for me to see. The characters in the background are useless noise. Much like the buildings in the Wall-E shot from earlier. In a game I need to be able to look clearly at those buildings just as I would be able to if i looked directly at them in real life. In a game I'm supposed to be free to look anywhere I please, not just where the DOF allows me. Someone earlier mentioned that when you are driving in a car the motion of the things you pass is blurred unless you focus on one spot. While that may be true in real life, in a game the screen doesn't have any idea where my eyes are focusing. It doesn't work.
And I dont care if it's a game or a movie, the over saturation from light sources is being overdone. Super 8 might as well have been called Blue Streaks of Light Across Your Screen.
SirIgbyCeaser
Banned
Sony will probably have a 1080p standard on their next playstation.
TUROK
Member
This isn't even close to being true. In layman's terms, they detect polygonal edges and apply a blur to those edges. FXAA however, appears to be prone to detecting edges which are not aliased edges and blurs them, resulting in the soft look.
MLAA on the other hand and produce some fantastic results, just ask anyone who has played God of War 3.
Just because it's a different implementation doesn't mean it's not real AA.
Also, MSAA wasn't poorly implemented into BF3, it's just what happens when you try using MSAA in a deferred render.
No they don't. Just like they didn't have standards on PS3.
Seriously, I wasn't sure if this is from the movie or from a game.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
You see, this is the mindset developers need to compete with next generation.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
You mean high quality full motion video with highly detailed prerendered environments? That's what I would be thinking if told that screenshot was from a game.
It just seems like random Avatar trolling to me.
Ubsersampling was just an example, it could be any form of "good" AA.
I'm scaling because that's what the consoles will do, it's an example that the image quality of 720p this gen isn't destined to look the same next gen, considering the advances in AA and scaling tech/hardware.
Another example: Just Cause 2, 32xCSAA, 720p native, scaled to 1080p
Yes, really. If someone would have told me that this is from Crysis or something, I would have believed him. It probably is different in motion though.
Absolutely not. While the environment looks phantastic (and quite a heap above current games to be honest), the cockpit doesn't look all that impossible to do with current tech.
I think that is what the AMD guy meant last year, that the overall impression won't be too far off Avatar next-gen and I think this will be true for non hardcore gamers and non pixel counters.
IrishNinja
Member
exactly my thought @ the OP - thought that was what was shot for here, despite talk of 1080.
is this a thing? the way i understand it, nintendo game design stresses FPS > res, no? which of their titles has run @ 30 vs 60 FPS? gotta figure mario/zelda for the latter.
brain_stew
Member
We're taking about 720p with absolutely zero spatial or temporal aliasing. 720p with none of the rendering artefacts we just accept as the norm in games today, even in supersampled PC games. Basically, go grab a Pixar Bd and see if you like the image quality there.
I've been playing most cross-platform games on a PC, hooked to the Television for a while now and I've always found that I had more benefits in Image Quality when using a lower resolution (768p is my sweet spot currently) and toping it with filters when compared to same image, same fps but with higher resolution and less filters.
I think it's a sane approach. It's not a matter of "we can't do 1080p and it's useless" but rather a case of "we Would reach an overall better quality if we worked on a heavily filtered 720p, moreso than just pumping up the resolution)".
They are NOT denying that there is a gain in 1080p, just saying that the power used to display it might result in overall better results if it was focused on Image Quality at 720p instead.
And from my personnal experience, I would totally agree.
The only reason I would see the 1080p prevail is when people are sitting too fracking close to the screen (for console games).
Higher resolutions makes total sense on PC, when you are sitting at a desk, max. 1 meter away from the screen. But when you are sitting 2.5 to 3 meters away, the quality gain for higher resolution (above 720p) is minimized.
As for the 30 FPS discussion well, I prefer a stable 30FPS than a wonky 60 FPS, dipping in the 30's on regular basis. I don' t mind 30 FPS for atmospheric games. I just hope however that they would NOT drop 60 fps as a minimum target for racing games, fighting games and nervous FPS (ie CoD, not Bioshock).
I think there is no need to be agressive about these prospects, these people are just trying to find solutions to offer you the best experience, and they are well damn more knowledegeable than most of us to try it. They never said "WE CAN'T DO 1080p 60 FPS" (because they can, even on current gen), they said "We have better for the same cost". And I want to see it before despising it blindly.
I think it's a sane approach. It's not a matter of "we can't do 1080p and it's useless" but rather a case of "we Would reach an overall better quality if we worked on a heavily filtered 720p, moreso than just pumping up the resolution)".
They are NOT denying that there is a gain in 1080p, just saying that the power used to display it might result in overall better results if it was focused on Image Quality at 720p instead.
And from my personnal experience, I would totally agree.
The only reason I would see the 1080p prevail is when people are sitting too fracking close to the screen (for console games).
Higher resolutions makes total sense on PC, when you are sitting at a desk, max. 1 meter away from the screen. But when you are sitting 2.5 to 3 meters away, the quality gain for higher resolution (above 720p) is minimized.
As for the 30 FPS discussion well, I prefer a stable 30FPS than a wonky 60 FPS, dipping in the 30's on regular basis. I don' t mind 30 FPS for atmospheric games. I just hope however that they would NOT drop 60 fps as a minimum target for racing games, fighting games and nervous FPS (ie CoD, not Bioshock).
I think there is no need to be agressive about these prospects, these people are just trying to find solutions to offer you the best experience, and they are well damn more knowledegeable than most of us to try it. They never said "WE CAN'T DO 1080p 60 FPS" (because they can, even on current gen), they said "We have better for the same cost". And I want to see it before despising it blindly.
TUROK
Member
We need more rational people like you around here.
The cockpit is real, just so you know.
Felix Lighter
Member
Nevermind
sorry for the stupid bump
sorry for the stupid bump
mentalfloss
Banned
All this really points to is this one simple fact..
Wait.
For the love of god, just wait before releasing next gen. Let the time pass so that you can release a powerful console that people can afford which produces 1080p, 60 fps games with all that visual pizazz and AI goodness you want.
Stop forcing the next generation too early.
Wait.
For the love of god, just wait before releasing next gen. Let the time pass so that you can release a powerful console that people can afford which produces 1080p, 60 fps games with all that visual pizazz and AI goodness you want.
Stop forcing the next generation too early.
The gold filter used in DXHR gave it a very unique look which I absolutely loved. Art need not always be created with realistic colors in mind. They weren't trying to emulate the look of a film, rather, deliver on their own artistic vision.
As with all forms of art, it will not appeal to everyone.
Games are interactive they don't reproduce movies.
I can't stand 720p games no more, I need more resolution especially in open spaces games. I prefer a clean image less impressive to my eyes than a dirt image with a lot of effects and a stupid AA which kill details.
Unfortunately I'm playing at 1280x800 on my pc without antialiasing.
Is aliasing a big problem on 1080p 3d pc games?
I can't stand 720p games no more, I need more resolution especially in open spaces games. I prefer a clean image less impressive to my eyes than a dirt image with a lot of effects and a stupid AA which kill details.
Unfortunately I'm playing at 1280x800 on my pc without antialiasing.
Is aliasing a big problem on 1080p 3d pc games?
PS4 will probably come out in 2014...
I'm buying the game now, not for some re-release later on.
mentalfloss
Banned
The only company that should be releasing a console before 2014 is Nintendo.
I'd get motion sickness.
jump_button
Banned
looks really fake to me and way too clean
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
Why would you get motion sick from high FPS when the opposite is usually the cause? 120 would look liquid smooth on a proper 120 hz monitor/tele.
30 FPS? No. Games benefit from higher framerates because it increases responsiveness and control over the action.
720p? Fuck that shit. We're gonna be playing these games on 1080p televisions and/or monitors capable of even higher resolutions. Why should upscaling become standard? The developers will spend all of this time crafting high quality imagery only to leave it up to the TV to preserve that clarity through upscaling?
I can appreciate the concept behind this, but I think games benefit from higher resolution and framerate in ways that don't apply to film.
720p? Fuck that shit. We're gonna be playing these games on 1080p televisions and/or monitors capable of even higher resolutions. Why should upscaling become standard? The developers will spend all of this time crafting high quality imagery only to leave it up to the TV to preserve that clarity through upscaling?
I can appreciate the concept behind this, but I think games benefit from higher resolution and framerate in ways that don't apply to film.
Yeah, I've defended their line of thinking and see merit in it, but the reality is that most TVs these days are 1920x1080. When games are at the mercy of a scaler (either from the console itself or the display) things don't always look great. 720p as it appears on my setup is very decent, but it can look pretty rough on other displays. Using 1080p would at least allow for proper 1:1 pixel mapping and a very clean image.
Lostconfused
Member
This thread is still going? Neat.
And yeah 120 FPS looks amazing. Surprises me every time I see it.
dragonelite
Member
Wasn't that what carmack tweeted about for next gen that it would make them have 1:1 pixel mapping.
It looks amazing if it's shot or rendered at 120FPS natively and then displayed on a 120hz monitor. If a 27FPS movie or a 30FPS game is being displayed at 120hz using motion interpolation, it looks like SHIT.
dragonelite
Member
And dont speak about the input lag. Because tv has to buffer 2 images to interpolate between.
I'm honestly a bit surprised these guys aren't set on targeting 1080p. That some of them wouldn't go for the 60 FPS has always been obvious though.
But I guess I'm kinda cool with some games going that route. I'm not sure I'd be able to tell the difference between 720p and 1080p when gaming on a TV anyway (assuming anti-aliasing that is). I'm looking forward to see what they can accomplish at 720p and 30 FPS next-gen.
But I guess I'm kinda cool with some games going that route. I'm not sure I'd be able to tell the difference between 720p and 1080p when gaming on a TV anyway (assuming anti-aliasing that is). I'm looking forward to see what they can accomplish at 720p and 30 FPS next-gen.
Yep, and that's definitely the case. That is really the best reason to target 1080p.
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
Damn I'm kind of glad that I haven't noticed which console games ran at 1080p and which didn't lol. Only time I notice resolutions is when I play skyward sword :/