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DeVos to rewrite Obama-era campus sexual assault policy
- Thread starter Beefy
- Start date
Also, the Obama admin could apply direct pressure to schools via title IX, but has no control over local law enforcement.
The whole thing is a mess and both classes of hurt people (victims and the falsely accused) are justified in being upset and angry about the current situation because the way it's been implemented is bad for all parties. We need direct action on this when we actually get a DDD situation again with policies that actually address the issues and criticisms both groups are bringing up.
Plinko
Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
I legitimately do not understand the point of this. There is no logical reason for this. There is no religious reason for this. There is no financial reason for this.
There is literally no reason this should be done.
There is literally no reason this should be done.
legacyzero
Banned
Read my previous post before that. I agree. Devos is evil AF, and should be questioned at every level. I wasn't even making a counter-point, but rather just a point. I just feel that everyone should be given the due process they deserve. This is the same reason I don't support the death penalty. Even 1 person being killed by execution is too many.
I don't think a rape victim should ever have any harder time with their burden of proof than any other crime. But even if false accusations are a small percentage, that's still too many lives ruined for being falsely accused of such a heinous crime. And far too often I'm rape cases, things are perceived as guilty until proven innocent.
Username1198
Member
She's a cunt. That's a pretty good description imo
She is terrible and has led her department incompetently. With that said, the way campuses handle some of these investigations has been unjust and ineffective.
http://www.espn.com/college-footbal...ester-case-supports-former-usc-trojans-kicker
http://www.espn.com/college-footbal...ester-case-supports-former-usc-trojans-kicker
MegaManTrigger
Banned
It's Betsy DeDumbo. She's devoid of any smarts, logic, and awareness, just like Trump.
Alright, that's one. Let's get, oh, I'll be generous and say 100,000 more cases of false rape accusations, and then we can start having a discussion about it being an actual problem that needs to be considered when trying to figure out how to prevent sexual misconduct and provide justice for the women who are actually raped at college every year.
legacyzero
Banned
Not making an argument against that. But I'm not going to make an argument for guilty until proven innocent either.
Obama-era campus sexual assault policy wasn't perfect.
Read the whole article to understand what was wrong with it.
And NO, I don't think DeVos is someone worth trusting in regards to this, but my point is the policy had significant issues.
And this isn't even an issue of "False Accusations", this is about the way investigations are handled.
Read the whole article to understand what was wrong with it.
And NO, I don't think DeVos is someone worth trusting in regards to this, but my point is the policy had significant issues.
And this isn't even an issue of "False Accusations", this is about the way investigations are handled.
She might be trying to get brownie points from Trump. She can go "I undid something Obama did! Give me perks!" and Trump would eat it up.
Nearly 95%+ of rapes reported did happen if someone even has the courage to report. So I do not understand why the fuck they need to even "better protect" the accused. They are protecting rapists. False accusations are far and few in between. This is pretty damn despicable, Especially coming from a woman in charge.
Yep. It's bizarre you have posters acknowledge in other threads that there are systemic problems with the application of the law, especially in regards to POC, and then turn around and say that an inconsistent process that gives the parties involved less rigor than a civil court case is and should be acceptable.
The Obama Administration's mandates trampled on basic rights for accused persons.
(Also the Atlantic article delves into the statistics on false accusations, and unsurprisingly the numbers aren't and shouldn't be taken as ironclad truth.)
No one is advocating that the victims should be left to fend for themselves, but it's not OK to just let the 5% of people falsely accused to deal with being the exception, not the rule.
People in prisons and on death row are mostly guilty as well, but that doesn't make it morally "despicable" to worry about the ramifications of those who are not.
I recommend reading this piece:
http://www.slate.com/articles/doubl...ns_why_must_be_pretend_they_never_happen.html
It's already 3 years old, but gives a very unbiased view of the issue.
Well they haven't announced anything concrete yet, and while Devos certainly doesn't inspire confidence I'm willing to wait and see. There are a lot of posts like this in the thread, "protecting the 1%", "90%+ of actual reports are legitimate", sure; however, the cornerstone of American justice is pretty much that it's better to let a few guilty walk if it means less false positives, fewer innocent people convicted/trampled.
This isn't Italy or a few other European countries where you are guilty until proven innocent, protecting and minimizing the damage to that 1%, 5%, 10% (as the slate article someone linked above cites), or whatever minority of falsely accused (with respect to any crime) is important.
In your case the claim was fully investigated, and they not only found that there wasn't sufficient evidence to bring the suspect to trial, they found that the accuser had likely committed a felony by falsifying her report, so I'm not sure what you're getting at because it's not even a "but think the presumption of innocence!!" argument. They did exactly what they should have done and it had exactly the outcome it should have.
Look, I get Title IX isn't perfect, and neither is the US justice system in general, but throwing your hands up and saying WELL WHAT CAN WE DO?? like Devos seems to be doing in response to the college campus rape epidemic because there's a few false reports here and there (like there is with literally every crime imaginable mind you) is absolutely not a solution.
Netherscourge
Banned
^Exactly.
A 5% false-positive rate does not mean the system has failed, nor do we have to re-adjust the balance in anyway.
legacyzero
Banned
What should be protected is the rights of the accused. Due process, and innocent until proven guilty in the court of law.
You say "they are protecting rapists!" You're literally advocating for guilty until proven innocent. Percentages are irrelevant to the law. That approach literally defeats the purpose of the process.
Is it likely that the person is guilty, going by those percentages? Probably. Should we just assume that, and then throw the book? Absolutely not. That isn't justice. But to your point of those that don't report the crime? I agree there. And the fact that some don't report it, is indicative of one of the problems in this whole debate.
All I'm saying is- we can't just tip the scales and risk unjustly imprisoning a person that did not commit a crime.
Widdle Puppy
Banned
So what is this fucking colostomy bag wearing a wig going to actually do? What rewrites, what changes? Or did she just hold this conference to shit all over Obama?
Wolfgunblood Garopa
Member
That's primarily the motivation.
Khaos Kontrol
Banned
Man-is-Obsolete
Member
I mean this is a terrible thing to have happened to you, I'm not sure anyone that goes through it feels great about it even if everything went as smoothly and quickly as possible. Is she really surveying rape victims about their level of satisfaction of dealing with being raped?
entremet
Member
Yep. It's gotten worse it seems and universities have no idea how to handle it. That said, DeVos is someone I don't really trust.
Aurean_Mentat
Member
Honestly, I don't know if DeVos is the right person. I mean, its not a matter of percentages for me. Victims of rape should have support and protection. Victims of false accusations should have support and protection as well. No matter which category you fall in, if you happen to be that guy/gal, the whole 'its only X%' sounds like dismissive bullshit. You are now in that X%, and your life now sucks.
I think there are three common sense reforms I would love to see:
1) If an accusation of rape has been been brought up, don't release either person's name. Treat it like you would any other case. Assure both parties of their physical safety (while making sure they stick around for the case to be resolved), forbid posting of social media/news accounts by anyone on either side. If asked, say, 'the matter is under investigation'.
2) Get the police involved from day 0, and keep the colleges and their staff the fuck away from all of this. Colleges aren't equipped to handle investigations that need to be taken as seriously as an accusation of rape. Have the police work with the college to ensure that both sides can still go to classes (if they have classes together, obviously change their schedules, but the important part here is to minimize the impact on both parties lives. Until proven guilty, both parties are innocent and should be treated as having done nothing wrong).
3) When its resolved, punish either party appropriately (as determined by the courts/judge). Again, keep the college 120% the fuck away from this. If guilty, then yeah, the defendant's reputation is going to go to shit (as it should). The punishments can and should include expulsion from the college (again, determined by the court. I cannot emphasize enough how much you need to keep the colleges out of this entire process). If proven innocent, then offer the accused some legal protection. I'm reminded of that case involving the mattress girl where the college let her carry around a mattress on campus, and even let her graduate with one, because she said this dude raped her, even though it was proven, in court, that there wasn't a case there. When a case resolves, let it be resolved.
I'm not saying individual (or group) malfeasance can't happen under any system. But given the system we have, fucking up (and ruining people's lives on all sides) seems to be baked into the system we now have.
I think there are three common sense reforms I would love to see:
1) If an accusation of rape has been been brought up, don't release either person's name. Treat it like you would any other case. Assure both parties of their physical safety (while making sure they stick around for the case to be resolved), forbid posting of social media/news accounts by anyone on either side. If asked, say, 'the matter is under investigation'.
2) Get the police involved from day 0, and keep the colleges and their staff the fuck away from all of this. Colleges aren't equipped to handle investigations that need to be taken as seriously as an accusation of rape. Have the police work with the college to ensure that both sides can still go to classes (if they have classes together, obviously change their schedules, but the important part here is to minimize the impact on both parties lives. Until proven guilty, both parties are innocent and should be treated as having done nothing wrong).
3) When its resolved, punish either party appropriately (as determined by the courts/judge). Again, keep the college 120% the fuck away from this. If guilty, then yeah, the defendant's reputation is going to go to shit (as it should). The punishments can and should include expulsion from the college (again, determined by the court. I cannot emphasize enough how much you need to keep the colleges out of this entire process). If proven innocent, then offer the accused some legal protection. I'm reminded of that case involving the mattress girl where the college let her carry around a mattress on campus, and even let her graduate with one, because she said this dude raped her, even though it was proven, in court, that there wasn't a case there. When a case resolves, let it be resolved.
I'm not saying individual (or group) malfeasance can't happen under any system. But given the system we have, fucking up (and ruining people's lives on all sides) seems to be baked into the system we now have.
They are definitely not thinking that.
The Republicans started an illegal war in 2004 and they only lost the House and Senate for 4 years before taking the House back. There would be no ISIS and who knows how much better shit would be but for that war and yet in 2016 the Republicans won pretty much everything so I don't know what the fuck it would take for the American people to give up on the Republicans.
Random Painted HIghway
Member
She can probably empathize with the duke lacrosse players...
Criminal justice is always a pendulum that needs constant adjustments, there is never going to be a perfect solution to any of this. Right now we are in an over correct mode that allows colleges to set their own policies on a lot of these issues that results in some cases the accused having no real ability to defend themselves. No attorney, no cross examination, nothing. Is it a just result that an entity of students and higher ed personnel make legal and factual determinations on criminal activity that result in significant consequences to the individuals involved?
Right.
The bolded should emphasize the problems of the current framework for Title IX proceedings here, and yes, the bolded can present significant problems for victims making accusations.
You do realize that a lot of rape cases where evidence proves them guilty has judges going "boys will be boys" and the ACTUALLY PROVED RAPISTS will just get a slap on the wrist, right?
The rights of the accused are already there. Victims have a really tough burden to prove a crime that is very hard to prove already. It's a mentally traumatizing thing having to relive your rape over and over again just for someone to go "oh but your skirt was short you were asking for it" or whatever BS a defense attorney will bring up for the accused.
Why do people like you only come out for rape threads, not like... say... welfare fraud or anything like that? Every single crime has people falsely accused and imprisoned for things they didn't do. The victims of sexual assault have it hard enough as is, why do we need to make it worse?
legacyzero
Banned
Oh I'm totally aware. And it makes my argument against mandatory minimums really difficult. That recent university case where dude got off with very little punishment was goddamn infuriating
You do understand there are currently thousands of untested rape kits. Rotting moldy etc. we as a country do a horrible job convicting rapists in the first place so even arguing for a minscule amount of people who are not guilty in this instance isn't even close to level if we actually even convicting people appropriately.
Yes percentage are relevant in how cases are persued and how seriously rape claims are taken. When in fact universities have a god awful track record when it comes to sexual assault.
excelsiorlef
Member
Subjugation of women.
We have far more threads about campus sexual assault than welfare fraud, for instance, and I'm not sure I get the parallels you're making. Is there a serious problem with people being wrongly deprived of their livelihoods because of false accusations of welfare fraud?
Meanwhile, your argument is "every single crime has people falsely accused and imprisoned, why are people taking issue with the fact that I want to lower the burden of proof so that more falsely accused people are imprisoned, aka an ass-backwards view of the law we enshrine for every other crime?"
OrangeGrayBlue
Member
Kinda getting that vibe. All the comments about "justice requires wisdom, humility and prudence" and that Obama had good intentions sounds like "Obama tried, but he's genetically incapable of rational thought so we have to go back and clean up after him." Meanwhile, moderates will chalk it up as a matter of partisan division and accuse progressives of "identity politics" by suggesting there could possibly be racists in the Trump administration.
entremet
Member
These Title XI protections are technically not about sexual assault but fall under the discrimination statues of Title IX, which treats sexual violence as discrimination, very odd descriptor. These are felonies, not just discrimination.
However, the big issue is that universities have no idea how to adjusticate serious felonies. These are administrators not lawyers. The protections should still exist, but time and again universities have been failing at this very seriously. Theyre also not impartial actors since reported rapes hurt admission and reputation.
I agree with the DeVos mistrust, though.
Random Painted HIghway
Member
What rights do you think an accused should have in one of these university tribunals?
And this overall details just how awful we are when it comes to rape and rape accusations and solving rapes.
https://www.propublica.org/article/false-rape-accusations-an-unbelievable-story
We as a society have done a god awful job of even having victims come forward and while we all can argue back and forth about anecdotal things. The FBI has solid evidence of how little there are false rape accusations thus meaning providing protections to accused rapists is not a real issue.
excelsiorlef
Member
Tell the bolded to the countless women who are treated as liars, community wreckers, neighborhood pariahs and are interrogated by the police almost with more zeal than the accused.
God people she's literally talking about making it harder for women to be safe on campuses
And so many of y'all are going... well Obama's efforts weren't perfect. Nothing is perfect but regression is not the answer, shifting focus to the statistically rare falsely accused is not the answer.
But sure keep talking nebulously about how it's not perfect now in response to DeVos wanting to regress it all.
excelsiorlef
Member
Cathy Young is not unbias.
Good lord.
Cathy Young is basically another Christina Hoff Sommers.
Literally a Gamergate "feminist"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathy_Young
Literally might as well cite a MRA.
The simple answer is that colleges shouldn't be handling this. They should have support services for people who say they've been victims of a rape to help them report the allegation to the police, and maybe have someone accompany them when necessary. Rape is a serious crime and a criminal matter. It should be handled by the criminal courts and no-one else.
You mean plagiarism job from some far-right thinktank.
Random Painted HIghway
Member
What issues do you see with the Obama policy and what are some possible solutions?
excelsiorlef
Member
I'm not the one decrying Obama's attempts. Nothing is perfect. I can't say on the fly how to fix it or what the solution is.
But I can say the solution certainly isn't to shift the focus towards "preventing false accusations" as if that's really the big issue... which is what DeVos is saying and what this topic is about
I don't need to know how to fix it to know how not to fix it.
My point was that just going well Obama's solution wasn't perfect so it needs to change in response to the change that DeVos is putting forward isn't right.
This is DeVos: https://mobile.twitter.com/AnnieWaldman/status/905843753365245956
legacyzero
Banned
Jack, I'm not sure what your petty post (which I already apologized for and called stupid) has to do with this discussion exactly?
I'm literally not disagreeing with you or excelsiorlef for that matter. Try adding to the discussion instead of Ad Hominem.
Gentleman Jack
Member
We're...still discussing Title IX enforcement, right?