Support NeoGAF

[Kayant]

On decision for 30fps in SP

Digital Foundry : The jump from PowerPC to AMD's x86 Jaguar has proven to be less then trivial in some cases, particularly in light of some of the performance issues seen in the Master Chief Collection where there are (or rather, were) clear CPU bottlenecks. Does this in part explain the reason to lock to 30fps in the campaign?

Mike Rayner : We decided 30fps for campaign and 60fps for multiplayer very early on as a design decision and not a technical limitation. The original was a visual showcase for Xbox 360 and we wanted to continue that on Xbox One by significantly updating the campaign visuals at 1080p while also keeping a more consistent 30fps frame-rate than the original. Running the campaign at 60fps is doable, it just doesn't look nearly as good as the 30fps version.

How they used ESRAM

Digital Foundry: There's been a lot of discussion about the 32MB limit on Xbox One's ESRAM - what's your strategy for its utilisation in Gears Ultimate?

Jaysen Huculak: Fun question and you get a description right from the primary developer of our ESRAM management.

Stu McKenna: Initially we only put the colour/depth buffers into ESRAM as we are forward-rendered, so main buffers (colour/depth) fit nicely into ESRAM at 1080p - this was a huge performance boost. Later in the project we looked at our ESRAM usage again to get extra performance back. From looking at the analysis you can see that only certain passes and resources will give you any benefit inside ESRAM as we were not ROP-write bound in many cases (ie ALU or texture read bound).

We added a new ESRAM allocator that leverages virtual memory to map pages to ESRAM/DRAM per 64k. We added lifetime management for resources we want inside ESRAM so that once they are released the physical pages are returned for other resources to use. Depth and colour targets on Xbox One can be compressed and we noticed in some cases splitting that planes between DRAM/ESRAM can also be a win as it frees up ESRAM memory for other more important resources.

Graphical enhancements being used(i.e lighting, shadows etc)

Digital Foundry: Can you talk us through the key enhancements you made with regards the lighting? Presumably you're using Lightmass for global illumination but can you tell us more about the ambient occlusion and the physically-based rendering system? Any particular PBR model you're utilising?

Jaysen Huculak: For sure! We are using Lightmass for the lighting and started with the 2006 version. We went through two major integrations, one to bring it up to roughly 2009 and one to bring it to 2011. This work sometimes has to go in stages to make sure all the pieces are working to move to the next level. The first integrations got us global illumination, which in itself was a big step up visually. Later we brought in support for dominant directional lights as well as signed distance field shadows and pre-shadows. This improved specular lighting as well as allowing for dynamic objects to receive and cast shadows that correctly blend with the environment. Our physically-bases shading is based on the UE4 method.

John White: The lighting model was switched to use the UE4-based PBR. This is Lambert for diffuse with Schlick Fresnel and geometry terms with GGX normal distribution. Normal maps could be optionally processed with Toksvig mapping to help with Spec AA. Keeping the UE4 model was very intuitive for the artists who were very familiar authoring using the model.

PC info

Digital Foundry: Ultimate Edition is coming to DX12 and Windows 10 - can you talk us through how the engine takes advantage of the new API?

Cam McRae: We are still hard at work optimising the game. DirectX 12 allows us much better control over the CPU load with heavily reduced driver overhead. Some of the overhead has been moved to the game where we can have control over it. Our main effort is in parallelising the rendering system to take advantage of multiple CPU cores. Command list creation and D3D resource creation are the big focus here. We're also pulling in optimisations from UE4 where possible, such as pipeline state object caching. On the GPU side, we've converted SSAO to make use of async compute and are exploring the same for other features, like MSAA.

Digital Foundry: It's been mentioned before that the PC version supports higher resolutions and frame-rates. Will there also be other anti-aliasing modes supported (MSAA, SMAA etc)? Better ambient occlusion, particle effects, shadow-map quality etc?

Cam McRae: We have put significant effort into making the Windows 10 version a showcase at 4K, geo and textures were re-authored with 4K in mind so the visual fidelity will really scale up on higher end hardware. We plan to uncap the frame-rate and will ship with a built-in benchmark mode. For anti-aliasing we'll support MSAA and FXAA.

Digital Foundry: On the flip-side, how low will the PC version scale down?

Cam McRae: While we haven't locked how far the game will scale down, it is important to us to ensure good performance (at least 30fps) on a variety of hardware. We will support a broad range of resolutions as well as a variety of graphics options for gamers to tweak their setup.

Much more at source - Quite a long read btw.

Popshot with a gnasher if old.

 

[OEM]

Mike Rayner : We decided 30fps for campaign and 60fps for multiplayer very early on as a design decision and not a technical limitation. The original was a visual showcase for Xbox 360 and we wanted to continue that on Xbox One by significantly updating the campaign visuals at 1080p while also keeping a more consistent 30fps frame-rate than the original. Running the campaign at 60fps is doable, it just doesn't look nearly as good as the 30fps version.

anyways, nice to see they putting extra effort into PC port. That 4k gore is going to look glorious.

 

[Inuhanyou]

Good to see them take full advantage of DX12 on the PC version. Will the framerate be arbitrarily capped at 60 or will PC users to infinite FPS and res?

I played through the whole Xbox One version of UE at a friend's house. Although the artstyle decisions very controversial for me, from a pure technical perspective, its a clear upgrade in regards to both performance and visual standards

 

[BlazinAm]

The original Gears looked weird at 60 fps on PC irrc.

 

[Poodlestrike]

Good to see them take full advantage of DX12 on the PC version. Will the framerate be arbitrarily capped at 60 or will PC users to infinite FPS and res?

I played through the whole Xbox One version of UE at a friend's house. Although the artstyle decisions very controversial for me, from a pure technical perspective, its a clear upgrade in regards to both performance and visual standards

Says that it'll be uncapped.

 

[Iced_Eagle]

Good to see them take full advantage of DX12 on the PC version. Will the framerate be arbitrarily capped at 60 or will PC users to infinite FPS and res?

I played through the whole Xbox One version of UE at a friend's house. Although the artstyle decisions very controversial for me, from a pure technical perspective, its a clear upgrade in regards to both performance and visual standards

It's in the OP. They will have an uncapped framerate.

 

[Figments]

anyways, nice to see they putting extra effort into PC port. That 4k gore is going to look glorious.

Well, if it ran at 60FPS, the quality of the assets would have to be scaled down.

So it isn't entirely wrong to say that the 30FPS version looks better than a hypothetical 60FPS version.

 

[Elixist]

When does it come out for pc?

 

[viHuGi]

30fps is fine, i play many games wich are 30fps and i hade more fun on those than most 60fps tittles.

Examples: Uncharted 2, Dark Souls, DriveClub, Gears of War 3, Halo 3...

Cant wait for Gears 4, will buy Xbox One for it <3

 

[deadman69]

When does it come out for pc?

Probably next year at this rate.

 

[Inuhanyou]

I'm only asking because sometime they use 'uncapped' as a term for the base console FPS, which leaves open 60fps cap. But if it really is uncapped from any cap, that's a great thing.

Also i got kind of confused. A while back they said they were working with the original code base of UE3 they used for the original game(i'm assuming UE3 2006), but they keep mentioning UE4 and modern iterations of UE3. So which version was it definitively?

I do like that they specifically mentioned that they updated the lighting to Gears 2 lighting(09) and then finally Gears 3(11)

 

[Angelus Errare]

Sounds like a lot of hopes to jump through in regards to eSRAM

 

[-MD-]

Mike Rayner : We decided 30fps for campaign and 60fps for multiplayer very early on as a design decision and not a technical limitation. The original was a visual showcase for Xbox 360 and we wanted to continue that on Xbox One by significantly updating the campaign visuals at 1080p while also keeping a more consistent 30fps frame-rate than the original. Running the campaign at 60fps is doable, it just doesn't look nearly as good as the 30fps version.

 

[Dictator93]

The original Gears looked weird at 60 fps on PC irrc.

uhhhh

On topic: this looks like it will have a legitimate PC DX12 release. NICE. That comment about design goals for 30fps is pretty funny though. aka avoiding saying they were dramatically hardware bound.

I find it sad though no one asked about obmb

 

[Dr.Acula]

So the SP on XBOne is 30fps and the SP on PC is uncapped, correct?

 

[hawk2025]

30fps strictly a design decision?


Odd that despite great efforts on assets, this ended up for me a lower-rung remaster due to the 30fps decision.

 

[scitek]

The original Gears looked weird at 60 fps on PC irrc.

ydnrc

EDIT: You might be thinking of Halo, where the animations were still 30fps even if the game was at 60.

 

[CHC]

Well, if it ran at 60FPS, the quality of the assets would have to be scaled down.

So it isn't entirely wrong to say that the 30FPS version looks better than a hypothetical 60FPS version.

Exactly. There is nothing be skeptical of really, he just admits they chose to push the graphics further in homage to the original game, which did exactly the same thing.

I don't know why people act like gaming consoles are these magic things that you can just keep getting infinite performance AND visuals out of if you just work really hard. It's basically one thing or the other and there is nothing wrong with just flat out saying that, yeah, they chose to go heavy on the effects and the flash.

 

[Kalentan]

Mike Rayner : We decided 30fps for campaign and 60fps for multiplayer very early on as a design decision and not a technical limitation. The original was a visual showcase for Xbox 360 and we wanted to continue that on Xbox One by significantly updating the campaign visuals at 1080p while also keeping a more consistent 30fps frame-rate than the original. Running the campaign at 60fps is doable, it just doesn't look nearly as good as the 30fps version.

I'm okay with this. As 60 fps in my opinion is far more important in MP then in SP.

 

[Dictator93]

ydnrc

EDIT: You might be thinking of Halo, where the animations were still 30fps even if the game was at 60.

It even supports an unlocked framerate that matches your refresh rate if you set it up. It is a complete mind fuck to have awesome screen translation and then watch your assault rifle animate @ 30 fps. The game looks terrible as a result.

 

[Collateral22]

Going from 60 to 30 was very jarring. Glad I finished the campaign in 2 sittings because doing it slowly with MP would have been hell.

 

[Joey Ravn]

I'm okay with this. As 60 fps in my opinion is far more important in MP then in SP.

It's sad that developers still to this day have to compromise, but, IMO, gameplay > graphics.

 

[Einchy]

Mike Rayner : We decided 30fps for campaign and 60fps for multiplayer very early on as a design decision and not a technical limitation. The original was a visual showcase for Xbox 360 and we wanted to continue that on Xbox One by significantly updating the campaign visuals at 1080p while also keeping a more consistent 30fps frame-rate than the original. Running the campaign at 60fps is doable, it just doesn't look nearly as good as the 30fps version.

A human actually said this.

 

[Kezen]

When does it come out for pc?

At this point it must have been delayed until Q1 2016.

On the GPU side, we've converted SSAO to make use of async compute and are exploring the same for other features, like MSAA.

Nice that another game is taking advantage of async compute.

The original Gears looked weird at 60 fps on PC irrc.

Not any weirder than any other game running at 60fps.
It looks magnificent, the experience is drastically better imo.

 

[sangreal]

A human actually said this.

yes, a human made the commons sense statement that choosing better visuals versus a higher framerate is a design choice

you guys are making something out of nothing here

 

[Krappadizzle]

We have put significant effort into making the Windows 10 version a showcase at 4K, geo and textures were re-authored with 4K in mind so the visual fidelity will really scale up on higher end hardware. We plan to uncap the frame-rate and will ship with a built-in benchmark mode. For anti-aliasing we'll support MSAA and FXAA.

 

[malfcn]

Everything is technically limited. Presented with the current hardware they made a design choice. Pushing visuals at a stable rate is better than a slideshow or garbage visuals.

 

[2San]

So do we know when the PC version is coming?

 

[Waaghals]

Well, if it ran at 60FPS, the quality of the assets would have to be scaled down.

So it isn't entirely wrong to say that the 30FPS version looks better than a hypothetical 60FPS version.

By that definition running at a lower framerate ( or dropping frames) is never due to technical limitations, as it is always a design decision. Who knew!

(I am being slightly unfair to you here, but given that Gears runs at a mixed framerate it seems likely 60fps is their own ideal).

 

[Grief.exe]

Uncapped framerate? Oh man.

 

[King Gilga]

Mike Rayner : We decided 30fps for campaign and 60fps for multiplayer very early on as a design decision and not a technical limitation. The original was a visual showcase for Xbox 360 and we wanted to continue that on Xbox One by significantly updating the campaign visuals at 1080p while also keeping a more consistent 30fps frame-rate than the original. Running the campaign at 60fps is doable, it just doesn't look nearly as good as the 30fps version.

So it's a technical limitation then?

 

[dEvAnGeL]

The original Gears looked weird at 60 fps on PC irrc.

nothing looks weird at 60 fps IIRC

 

[Anth0ny]

Running the campaign at 60fps is doable, it just doesn't look nearly as good as the 30fps version.

 

[Swarna]

I don't understand why it's funny. He is literally just stating facts. They could have made the campaign run at 60 by dialing back some effects, but didn't. Am I missing something here?

 

[neogaffer1]

I don't understand why it's funny. He is literally just stating facts. They could have made the campaign run at 60 by dialing back some effects, but didn't. Am I missing something here?

.

gaf just wants to make something out of nothing. i took it to mean that they started out with the idea that "let's keep sp at 30 instead of 60 and make it look real nice" before they even started working on the port, which is what they mean by design decision.

 

[TheAdmiester]

So it's a technical limitation then?

What's not to get? Framerate is never a technical limitation. There's no arbitrary limitation on a console that prevents it from running at a high framerate, it's a design decision from the start because they have to decide which target to aim for. I'm sure a PS2 could run a game at over 300fps if it was as intensive as something like Pong, it's just a matter of how much visual fidelity you want to trade off for performance.

They're literally saying "we could definitely achieve 60, but we wanted it to look *even* better so we kept it at 30".

 

[Krappadizzle]

What's not to get? Framerate is never a technical limitation. There's no arbitrary limitation on a console that prevents it from running at a high framerate, it's a design decision from the start because they have to decide which target to aim for. I'm sure a PS2 could run a game at over 300fps if it was as intensive as something like Pong, it's just a matter of how much visual fidelity you want to trade off for performance.

They're literally saying "we could definitely achieve 60, but we wanted it to look *even* better so we kept it at 30".

Does the 60fps multiplayer look like shit or something?

 

[PeskyToaster]

Does the 60fps multiplayer look like shit or something?

No, it looks and runs really good. There's a large difference between 'shit' and 'not as good' that seems to be washed away sometimes.

 

[EightBitNate]

No, it looks and runs really good. There's a large difference between 'shit' and 'not as good' that seems to be washed away sometimes.

Yeah I'm interested in seeing what the differences are.

 

[Angelus Errare]

This thread feels like some alternate universe of the TLoU PS4 thread.

 

[Kamina777]

This thread feels like some alternate universe of the TLoU PS4 thread.

Interesting observation.

 

[TheAdmiester]

This thread feels like some alternate universe of the TLoU PS4 thread.

As in justifying 30fps campaign/60fps multi?

 

[dr_rus]

The original Gears looked weird at 60 fps on PC irrc.

True, true. I always thought that it would look much better at 120 fps.

 

[OrangeOak]

Remake looks amazing on Xbox One imo. I can't wait to see it on PC with no aliasing. It will be glorious.

 

[leeh]

So it's a technical limitation then?

No, they just wanted it to look the best it could on that hardware, rather than designing it around 60fps.

What's not to get? This thread...

 

[Grief.exe]

The original Gears looked weird at 60 fps on PC irrc.

Stockholm syndrome.

 

[ILoveBish]

Release date is the only info I need. Give it to me baby.

 

[Kezen]

Release date is the only info I need. Give it to me baby.

Holiday 2015, officially.

But a total absence of communication points us towards a delay.

 

[Zombegoast]

Why is Forward-Rendering still being used in 2015 and running at 30fps!?

 

[Crimsonclaw111]

Man I can't wait for this to come out. My friend is building a PC too so it'll be like 06 all over again, but with drastically better performance.