I'm using elective mode. I understand they unlock with time, but that doesn't mean the UI shouldn't be the best it can be right out of the gate. I can't fathom the reasoning behind restricting ability placement. It's counter intuitive which is the opposite of what a good UI should be.
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Diablo 3 Beta [Beta withdrawal underway!]
- Thread starter maniac-kun
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I'm using elective mode. I understand they unlock with time, but that doesn't mean the UI shouldn't be the best it can be right out of the gate. I can't fathom the reasoning behind restricting ability placement. It's counter intuitive which is the opposite of what a good UI should be.
I haven´t completely understood the changes, so I have two stupid questions. Before this patch 13 there were 5 runestones(alablastar, crimson, golden, indigo, obsidian) that you could put into your skills to alter your skills.
Are these runestones removed and replaced by these new runes?
Or are the runestones still there but just renamed and you unlock them as you level up?
Are these runestones removed and replaced by these new runes?
Or are the runestones still there but just renamed and you unlock them as you level up?
perfectnight
Banned
The latter.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Yes, I know the abilities are the same. I wanted to compare the game design philosophies of finding/buying/trading runes vs. getting the through skillups. Are you sufficiently fathomed yet?
What's the point though? If you unlocked a new ability and you wanted the red rune version of that, you wouldn't just farm the game for hours hoping a red rune randomly drops, you would just go to the auction house and purchase one. Everyone would do this for whatever rune they wanted. The whole system is kind of pointless.
If you were to argue the runes leveling up as you use them, I can understand that because I think that's a cool feature that I will miss. But obtaining runes either through item drops or leveling up is really a minor difference.
Thank you.
Anybody else have some serious lag issues or servers crash or whatever it is? Happened to me twice so far that after playing for around 1h suddenly everything stop working. I can still move around but I can't loot anything, mana stops regenerating, cooldown stops, etc etc. I can't even quit the game, I have to kill the process. Looks like a complete desync.
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
True. But honestly I wonder about that same thing when it comes to the rest of the loot too. I mean if I want a new ring, I can either farm the game until I find it or just go to the AH and buy it instantly. Which I suppose assumes you have farmed the gold needed already. In fact, gold will probably be the most sought after commodity in D3 because it allows you to get whatever you want without having to farm the game. Because soon after launch you will probably be able to buy whatever the hell you want from the AH as long as you have the gold to do so.
In some ways that makes me sad. I almost wish they had a "no auction house" mode of play, where characters HAD to farm their own shit. It will be interesting to see how the game plays out, but the entire AH in Diablo does have me a bit concerned.
I mean, once you have every item for your character that you want, what other reason is there to play? And if you can just buy whatever you want from a one stop shopping place that is always available...
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
A player would either resign himself to use whatever runes he has already found by chance, or would make a calculated decision to purchase/trade specific ones, yes. That is a gameplay element that I would have liked to test out, just to see for myself the drawbacks spelled out by the devs and to see if I had the same assessment as them.
Not quite. As long as the economy is functional, it's not as simple as just going off and buying a rune. Players will always be making decisions regarding perceived value vs. preferential build vs convenience vs cost. That freedom of choice and freedom to have to make such decisions is now gone, for better or worse, depending on what kind of player you are. I would have liked to have tested out that game mechanic. To have to make those choices myself and to see if I agree with the devs on their assessment of the negatives of having that freedom.
Not that minor. In addition to the points I laid out above, there is another one. Now that particular runes unlock at specific levels, there is a perceived strength of certain runes just because they get unlocked later than others. This perceived strength is just an illusion, as long as rune power is balanced at level 60, but it's still there.
I think the goal is for it to be a long long time before a player is satisfied with his character since it will be exceedingly difficult to get those items with "perfect" (to that player) stats.
I posted this on the official forums, might be relevant for discussion here:
IMO, the main differences between the two systems are that:
1) You don't get to chose which skill variants to use until you level to that point (in some cases, near max level, at hell difficulty) or the order you get them in. In old system, all lower level runes would be available/common while playing through on normal difficulty. I.e. Jay had stated that they would "drop like candy" on a normal playthrough.
2) The new system has 1 power rank spread over 4 difficulties. The old system was 7 power ranks, 1-4 over 3 difficulties and the last 3 for inferno.
I really would like to hear a blue response on the issue of no more skill ranks. What are we getting to customize/increase the power individual skills instead?
Additionally, with no more ranks, visually, how will the skill look more powerful now? Previously, Bashiok had said higher ranks would potentially look cooler/more powerful like having more magic missiles (Wizard) or more rockets (DH). Now what?
IMO, the main differences between the two systems are that:
1) You don't get to chose which skill variants to use until you level to that point (in some cases, near max level, at hell difficulty) or the order you get them in. In old system, all lower level runes would be available/common while playing through on normal difficulty. I.e. Jay had stated that they would "drop like candy" on a normal playthrough.
2) The new system has 1 power rank spread over 4 difficulties. The old system was 7 power ranks, 1-4 over 3 difficulties and the last 3 for inferno.
I really would like to hear a blue response on the issue of no more skill ranks. What are we getting to customize/increase the power individual skills instead?
Additionally, with no more ranks, visually, how will the skill look more powerful now? Previously, Bashiok had said higher ranks would potentially look cooler/more powerful like having more magic missiles (Wizard) or more rockets (DH). Now what?
Im not sure why they can't just scale the abilities along with the effects/graphics/number or rockets, etc.
What do you mean though? Like via specific breakpoints in skill mod affixes or direct affixes that increase the # of rockets etc? I hope that's what they are planning.
Scaling them through affixes seems to make more sense from a loot hunt perspective, but who knows.
They did this because they wanted to lock runes to a skill after slotting. I still don't understand why they thought that was a good idea.
I felt like a gold sink for unslotting a skill would have worked fine but I guess that went against their design philosophy of letting people switch out skills every 15 seconds. Excuse my sarcasm, but that's what they are doing to the game.
If it were up to me, we would have a system where you slot a runestone (maybe with an random affix too), its gets locked and if you reslot you lose the runestone unless you want to spend a bunch of gold/reagents to recover it again as a unlocked colored runestone with the same affix. This gives 35 rune types total, plus affixes if that isn't to much of an inventory burden. I doubt it would have been.
Yes, you begin unlocking runes from level 6.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
zomg Charged Bolt runed to Explosive Bolt is fucking hilarious in groups
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Last Baron
Member
My wizard seems to be hitting much harder than her last incarnation. Love it.
Unknown Soldier
Member
Well okay, this is buggy. It's not showing my Battletag and I can't send anybody friend requests because the game thinks I don't have one. I just logged into Battle.net from Firefox and it's showing my Battletag just fine on my account page. Sigh.
I'm thinking Q3 2012 at the earliest at this point.
I'm thinking Q3 2012 at the earliest at this point.
Do not, it has nothing to do with it. Battle.Net is near-dead right now. Cant even get 5 pieces of 1024kb SC2 maps to download to play ladder.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Yeah, friends list is fucked again.
I propose that we should hang out in one of the public chat channels to meet up. Which one of them is usually empty?
I propose that we should hang out in one of the public chat channels to meet up. Which one of them is usually empty?
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Was having trouble meeting friends in game. Tried to coordinate at the first channel (witch doctor chat) but players would only appear as squares in chat.
Tried to relog, but it said I don't have a battletag.
I went to my battlenet account page and changed my password.
I was able to log in again
We reconvened in witch doctor chat, and we could see each other and join parties
Tried to relog, but it said I don't have a battletag.
I went to my battlenet account page and changed my password.
I was able to log in again
We reconvened in witch doctor chat, and we could see each other and join parties
Small bugs like this don't take that long for even Blizzard to fix.
CarbonatedFalcon
Member
I'm pretty fucking disappointed with the reworked rune system. Perhaps a streamline to make it easier on the designers part, but a downgrade in every other way. I was really looking forward to the economy aspect of runestones as items. Yes, having around 3,000 runestone variants was not going to work (or be clunky if it did), but I firmly believe that was a relatively minor problem that could have been designed around; that number could be reduced to something more reasonable by using one of the proposed variations on the system.
Unlocking set abilities at set levels is a mistake as well. People should have the option to choose as they level up. Rune customization doesn't mean nearly as much otherwise.
I can see why they did it, but I'm really unhappy with the change. The thing that pisses me off the most is that they tossed the wonderful, colorful runestone art and replaced it with generic and obscure at a glance symbols. Change for the worse in every conceivable fashion. If that art makes it to the final build, I'll be extremely disheartened. This specific development team has already lost most of my trust though...
Unlocking set abilities at set levels is a mistake as well. People should have the option to choose as they level up. Rune customization doesn't mean nearly as much otherwise.
I can see why they did it, but I'm really unhappy with the change. The thing that pisses me off the most is that they tossed the wonderful, colorful runestone art and replaced it with generic and obscure at a glance symbols. Change for the worse in every conceivable fashion. If that art makes it to the final build, I'll be extremely disheartened. This specific development team has already lost most of my trust though...
I saw them talking about 5,000 rune variants and I sorta looked and said "what"?
The entire time I thought runestones were universal. 6 types of runestones and 7 levels. 42 combinations.
In essence, runestones would be rarer drops and then you could stop and swap as necessary once you had one.
The entire time I thought runestones were universal. 6 types of runestones and 7 levels. 42 combinations.
In essence, runestones would be rarer drops and then you could stop and swap as necessary once you had one.
I have to agree with what seems the majority sentiment and say the new rune stone system is a downgrade.
The old system promoted customization; even though the same skills would unlock at the same time for everyone, people would find different runestones and everyone's builds would end up different. Plus if there was a specific form of a skill you wanted you could go after that specific runestone to customize your character the way you wanted.
In the new system, not only will everyone have the same skills at the same time, but everyone will only have the same modifications available at the same time. Making it much more likely to run into someone of the same class with the exact same skill loadouts. For example, every single lvl 6 Demon Hunter will be rocking Hungering Arrow with the first rune unlock.
The old system promoted customization; even though the same skills would unlock at the same time for everyone, people would find different runestones and everyone's builds would end up different. Plus if there was a specific form of a skill you wanted you could go after that specific runestone to customize your character the way you wanted.
In the new system, not only will everyone have the same skills at the same time, but everyone will only have the same modifications available at the same time. Making it much more likely to run into someone of the same class with the exact same skill loadouts. For example, every single lvl 6 Demon Hunter will be rocking Hungering Arrow with the first rune unlock.
kiunchbb
www.dictionary.com
That's what I been thinking too, a few week after release there are going to be optimal build for each class by hardcore player, and most people will just end up copying their spec to level up as fast as possible like WOW.
Picking up a rare skill rune to having ability different from most people is a lot better than simple having gears with different stats.
I can't believe they are making skill rune a "free item", they could make so much more just from players trading them in auction house. They must be really rushing for Q2 release date.
No rune would've been rare in the old system just the rank. Don't really see how this dumbs down custom builds if anything it allows for more creative builds. If they could somehow implement Rune ranks again i wouldnt mind the system.
The current Skill/Rune UI is so horrible however whoever thought of that shit needs to go. It feels so dumb downed.
The current Skill/Rune UI is so horrible however whoever thought of that shit needs to go. It feels so dumb downed.
Unknown Soldier
Member
I think they made a mistake in calling this the 'runes' system, because it's completely different from what runes were in D2. It's a lot like the Glyphs system in Tera, where you add a skill modifier to a skill to change how it acts.
They should just rename this system to something else and put the D2-style runes back in.
They should just rename this system to something else and put the D2-style runes back in.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
I'm not quite seeing as to how it encourages more creative builds since none of the effects changed. Only the method to obtaining them changed. Unless you mean that it more or less forces players to try out a new rune effect every level since they might as well anyway and there's really no reason not to.
One way that the old system would have promoted diversity is because no one's character progression would ever wind up the same way.
Assume two players do a no-twink ironman run using only the items that they find in game:
New system: Their skill progression will look identical, and their rune progression will be identical. Their gameplay experience will be exactly the same. Every single level up, they will always get the same skill learned or rune effect learned. The character's entire destiny is set from level 1. There are no surprises. No hard choices that take into consideration each individual players' perceived value of different skills and runes. Everyone always has the same choice to make as everyone else. By the time you reach level 60 you will have everything available to you so who cares.
Old system: Their skill progression will be identical, but their rune progression will be random and totally different from each other. Their rune progression will progress only by means of what runestones the player can find. The only thing that is set in stone is their skill progression, but beyond that, their future is still unwritten. Players have to make real choices about which runes they choose to level up their skills since the runes themselves are a scarce resource.
Now, I acknowledge the real inventory problem, and there can be solutions to ameliorate that, but I'm putting that aside for now and just concentrating on the gameplay aspect.
The more I think about it, the more it feels like they dropped the ball with this new rune system.
So.. is there anything you actually choose about your character as you level up now? From videos it looks like stat points are auto-allocated and there's nothing permanent or even semi-permanent about skill or rune choices anymore, so... I dunno, that really does seem like dumbing things down a bit.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Once you reach a high enough level that you unlock multiple runes per skill, that's when choice finally comes into play. At that point, you decide which rune you want to be active on that particular skill. That's about it, though. Not much of a hard choice.
Console development research has yielded many revelatory results and as such PC gamers get to benefit from such glorious decisions.
CarbonatedFalcon
Member
Even if that's not the full reason, there is certainly evidence that points that way. Makes Blizzard look pretty bad in this case. Same with some of the other changes (like the default being hand-holding mode.)
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Yeah. I don't really see why they had to change that. They could have just used the old rune symbols.
In the old system you were limited to what rune drops and apparently they were random so you could get a rank 3 crimson crippling wave rune when you were looking for a Wizard rune etc. Now you can pick whichever one you want and have an idea of how you'd like to play.
Unknown Soldier
Member
Probably. I'm still thinking Q3/Q4 at this point at the earliest, Blizzard can't even get Battle.net working correctly right now. I just played the whole night with Rentahamster and didn't realize that he wasn't talking because I couldn't see anything he said to me in-game.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
In the new system, you can't just "pick whatever one you want" until you unlock all of them, which won't be until a later level.
Example:
If I want a "Hand of Ytar" version of the Lashing Tail Kick, I have to wait until level 51. Under the old system, I could have unlocked Lashing Tail Kick at level 3, and inserted a level 1 Obsidian rune and had Hand of Ytar soon, instead of at level 51.
If my particular build relies on rune variants that don't get unlocked until the mid to late 50s, I can't "pick whatever I want" until I'm damn near max level.
That's true but it doesn't matter til Inferno anyway or that's how i'm looking at it. The current system does have serious flaws and that's one of em. It sucks having to wait to unlock the runes but with this they also can give players something new in the 30-60 leveling range so it's not all bad. Maybe gear will have certain Rune + effects i hope so anyway.
things that i would like to improve the rune skill system:
- make it where you can drag and drop current skills equipped to clear them from your mouse buttons and hot keys allowing the use of normal attack on mouse if desired.
- instead of unlocking a specific rune at a certain level, make it where the player unlocks a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc rune choice for the skill to allow for more variety while leveling on the way to 60.
It seems much more restricted in the earlier levels with the variety possible because we only have a small set of the character skills unlocked. Once players get to 30 and all the skills are unlocked there will a much bigger variety of builds you will see in the wild.
- make it where you can drag and drop current skills equipped to clear them from your mouse buttons and hot keys allowing the use of normal attack on mouse if desired.
- instead of unlocking a specific rune at a certain level, make it where the player unlocks a 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc rune choice for the skill to allow for more variety while leveling on the way to 60.
It seems much more restricted in the earlier levels with the variety possible because we only have a small set of the character skills unlocked. Once players get to 30 and all the skills are unlocked there will a much bigger variety of builds you will see in the wild.
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