I am not sure if Blizzard are planning to let people hit cap just playing on Normal. If Diablo 2 means anything, the XP drop will make players jump into Nightmare and Hell as soon as they finish. Its all about collecting loot and the best loot is not in Normal. Just like WoW. The best loot is the stuff you have to work for.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Diablo 3 Beta [Beta withdrawal underway!]
- Thread starter maniac-kun
- Start date
- Status
I am not sure if Blizzard are planning to let people hit cap just playing on Normal. If Diablo 2 means anything, the XP drop will make players jump into Nightmare and Hell as soon as they finish. Its all about collecting loot and the best loot is not in Normal. Just like WoW. The best loot is the stuff you have to work for.
Sounds like Hell to me. Where you needed actual 'broken' builds and resistances up the whaazoo.
Probably similar to the DII EXP curve in it's harshness.
For reference:
http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Experience
This is in. Mobs giving 60XP a hit can go down to 6XP if you've out leveled and even 0 if you are high enough.
Probably similar to the DII EXP curve in it's harshness.
For reference:
http://diablo2.diablowiki.net/Experience
Code:
mlvl
>10
10
9
8
7
6
1 to 5
-5 to 0
-6
-7
-8
-9
-10
<-10
clvl
5%
5%
15%
36%
68%
88%
100%
100%
81%
62%
43%
24%
5%
5%I am ok with that. I intend to play Diablo 3 over and over. If people are buying it just to play on Normal, then they might as well buy another game.
Since the cap is 60, I get the feeling Blizzard actually want people to hit cap and get into Inferno, so I don't see it being that much of a grind. Especially in the light of what they did for WoW.
Unknown Soldier
Member
Well, original D2 had things like Static Field zapping the whole screen which Sorcs would do over and over and then finish with a single Frozen Orb. It had Bowazons with the Buriza-do-Kyanon spamming multi-shot and wiping out entire screens full of cows in seconds in a full 8-person game. It had Barbarians who could literally be continuously in Whirlwind. Yeah, original D2 was hilariously broken, but it was hilarious because every time Blizzard nerfed something, people would come up with a new crazy OP build to wipe the floor with the enemies.
D3 won't be anything like that, because all your skills are awarded sequentially, in exactly the same way, in exactly the same order. There are fewer skills now by a lot as well. The number of total different builds is vastly reduced in D3, which means no more crazy shit like Lightning Javazons and Kickassassins and every other hilarious build people came up with in D2. I mean in D2 you had builds based around just one weapon, like the Burizon, and all you did was spec specifically for that one weapon.
All that is gone now. You'll build every character in D3 exactly the same way, with the exact same skills to choose from. The amount of customization in D2 was ridiculous which was why it took then nearly a decade of nerfing to reach the point D2 did where almost all OP builds were finally broken, because people just kept finding an awesome and hilarious new way to abuse the shit out of the D2 skill trees, runes, mercs, and item random generator to make another ridiculous build to slaughter more mobs and take their stuff.
Not really. Leveling didn't really get nerfed until after like 6-7 years. You used to be able to just stand still in cow level games and watch the XP bar go from 1-99, that made it a lot easier to start a new character and play around with different builds. It's why Blizzard added re-spec to characters when they nerfed leveling because it became so much harder to level after that patch.
Not saying it'll be broken the exact same way as D2 was, just that it'll probably be severely broken somehow and fixed later. With most companies that wouldn't be a good enough excuse, but Blizzard's commitment to D2 over the years makes me trust them to play a long game to tweaking D3 into an awesome game.
This.
I do trust Blizzard to be able to make Diablo utterly amazing and keep me hooked for weeks, months and years after it comes out.
All those crazy Diablo 2 builds were boring. Mashing one skill to watch things explode is utterly devoid of gameplay. You might as well just hack your character, get infinite stats and duped items and one-shot Uber Diablo. As soon as you do that, the game is devoid of entertainment value. Just like cheating/botting through a game, why bother playing?
Unknown Soldier
Member
The fun of those crazy builds was discovering them, usually by accident. There were a lot of people who deduced all the game's underlying mechanics and were able to use science to determine how to create a build, but most of the best D2 builds in those days were found by people just experimenting and figuring things out. It was boring if all you did was follow someone else's guide and copy their build, but it was awesome in the early days of D2 just screwing around and finding out what you could use to massacre the mobs, assuming Battle.net was working (and for most of D2's first year of release, it usually wasn't).
I remember when people first noticed that Static Field was the whole screen in those days, everyone was like HOLY SHIT WTF and then for awhile there everyone was a Sorc that used SF/Forb and then Blizzard patched it. This was compounded by the hilarity of Battle.net constantly lagging you out and so you would run into a room, start spamming SF, and it would lag, and you would wait, and the mobs would randomly re-position themselves, and if you were lucky you would be alive still and if you weren't you would be dead or the game would just timeout.
And I'm getting way off topic here reminiscing nostalgically about D2's early days, so I'll stop now.
Leon Belmont
Member
How can I get a Diablo III Beta Key? I already have my account in Bizzard.net, but when I want to enter to the beta, I can't, the system says that I need at least one game on my account 
Unknown Soldier
Member
You need to be invited into the D3 beta.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Hehehe, "Rentahammer". I like the sound of that
When you say, "new system", you mean the current system in beta patch 13? I would disagree with that statement. There is no dynamism in the runes now. From level 6 to level 60, they're always going to look and feel the same. At least in the old system, you could actually see and feel a difference in tangible qualities like number of projectiles, AOE size, duration, frequency of proc, etc. Imagine if a Necromancer in Diablo II still shot out only 6 projectiles at once at Teeth skill level 30. That would be pathetic.
In my system, rune access is still ties to your level up, and furthermore, rune level advancement is also tied to your level up. Also, since there are only 4 levels, each individual level is a significant step in power. Yet, it won't be that significant that having only level 2 runes even in Hell mode will be an impossible hurdle to overcome. Overall skill strength is still strongly tied to personal stats and weapon damage, after all.
There are only 4 level ups. That is less than the 7 they originally had. 4 is not such a large number. There would only be 20 unique runestones.
The number of "level ups" that come with my system are nearly the same as the current system. Each initial skill rune unlock is also at the same pace as the current system.
If you're worried about casual players getting confused by the rune level ups on all their runes, they can ignore all their other skill runes if they wanted to and just concentrate on their core abilities that they want to use. They have that option. Veteran players, on the other hand, have enough skill to keep track of all the skill runes under their command if they want to diversify their build, too.
I don't believe the elements that I put into my system are exceedingly difficult to grasp. I just want players to have to think about the decisions they make and feel like they have a say in the path of their character's development.
I elaborated on why runes should be itemized in my earlier post. Level 1 runes would be fairly common, and level 4 runes would be fairly rare.
As to the problem of runes being a "binary experience", there are ways to design the game so that runes are always in demand. For example, have runes be an ingredient used in crafting, too. Furthermore, to max out his character, a player under my system needs to eat 400 runes. That's kind of a lot. He won't be using up 400 runes anytime soon.
I'll address some further points of yours in a later post after I think about it for a bit.
I was offering a hypothetical response to the question asked and think that most of the changes from D2 to D3 that I have experienced so far are for the better. I have very little doubt that the rest of the game will be excellent just like the beta content.
perfectnight
Banned
+rune affixes are in the game and have been data mined so there go my worries about rune progression. Now they just need to give us back the old UI. Then the game can ship and it'll be excellent.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Ah, if that's so, then that's a good thing.
Oooo that would be great.
CarbonatedFalcon
Member
If true, I think I could live with the new system, as long as they change the UI, as you said.
perfectnight
Banned
http://diablo.incgamers.com/blog/comments/diablonut-database-updated-to-patch-13
Don't click if you don't want to spoil the item affixes and whatnot.
Don't click if you don't want to spoil the item affixes and whatnot.
I haven't heard of + rune stuff.
The new post on the fansite seems like +skill stuff in some way though.
perfectnight
Banned
Yeah actually it would be more accurate to say +skill, but the numbers they have for those modifiers are weird though.
Seems like they already did what I thought they should: make skill boosting affixes separate from the direct progression system. I actually didn't expect it to make it until the expansion but I was underestimating how much time they had to put into it considering this is their last gameplay system that isn't locked down.
I'd really expect to see a lot of item iteration by the time of release and even post-release. That's really the part you save for last because it's always going to be in constant flux. It'll be interesting to see how many affixes/types are being hidden until release date as well.
This much is obvious: They're getting serious about hitting Q2. Late May seems highly likely at this point with a chance of slipping to early June.
I'd really expect to see a lot of item iteration by the time of release and even post-release. That's really the part you save for last because it's always going to be in constant flux. It'll be interesting to see how many affixes/types are being hidden until release date as well.
This much is obvious: They're getting serious about hitting Q2. Late May seems highly likely at this point with a chance of slipping to early June.
Joe Shlabotnik
Banned
In the US and it's bad right now, 300-400ms.
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
Yeah, I think the new rune skill system is great too, but I think it could be vastly improved by allowing the player to decide which runes they unlock at each level. If the rune skills are all tuned to be as equal and viable as Blizzard says they are (meaning no one rune is the best) then it shouldn't matter what order they unlock in.
perfectnight
Banned
Yes I agree and it's something I forgot to mention before. That is actually the one thing which I really, really hope they add before it ships.
If you want to see it in the game then go on the beta feedback forum and make a thread about it or upvote/reply to the 200 other threads on the same topic. Whatever gets their attention!
If you want to see it in the game then go on the beta feedback forum and make a thread about it or upvote/reply to the 200 other threads on the same topic. Whatever gets their attention!
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Yep, I made a pretty lengthy post regarding that topic about 100 posts back. All the rune variants are supposed to be more or less balanced and equally effective compared to each other. Having some unlock later than others implies that the later ones are somehow better, when that's not the case.
I think there's something to be said for not letting players have everything they want at the earliest possible level. If you take all the runes that sound interesting to you first then the last 20 levels or so will give you nothing but ones that don't. And adding a way to pick the runes just creates more complexity in the interface that doesn't serve a lot of purpose in the grand scheme of things.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
And if that player is so brilliant as to see that his pre-planned build is viable all the way to Inferno, then good for him. I don't see why we should have arbitrarily put up roadblocks in his path that make his early progression too similar to everyone else's and robs him of a lot of the personal say in how he wants his own character to evolve.
Even so, in Diablo II, you had your main build down pat by Nightmare, and the game was still good even though you no longer gained any new skills.
I would argue that most people won't get a solid build down with their very first rune choices, so that they would choose to use other runes as a matter of course. There's no downside to do so, so why wouldn't they?
The purpose is to give the player a choice and to make them feel in control. This is my character, made from my choices, not from Blizzard's predetermined "build-a-bear" class.
perfectnight
Banned
That's pretty much what I think. With the current system you have to wait until 60 to try every rune in the game. That is an INCREDIBLE amount of dedication required just to try the skill rune system in its entirety. The current system also severely limits skill customization while leveling up. Many people will simply switch to the new rune (unless it is incredibly shit) because it is new and the fact that it unlocked at a higher level than their previous rune will lead many to believe it is better.
teh_J0kerer
Member
The design choices in this game are kind of a mess honestly.
So what, in order to get character differentiation back into the game, they're going to put + skill bonuses on gear (instead of doing the obvious thing and just putting a gold cost on the freespecs)? I thought the whole reason they got rid of skill points was because they didn't like people just pumping one or two skills with all their points, and then losing gameplay variety. So then it would seem we're back to square one, and people are just going to be choosing one or two skills to pump with their gear, and will just end up doing damage with those.
Similarly, they got rid of allocating stat points, because it wasn't interesting in Diablo II, with everyone putting the minimum points into strength to wear their armor, and then the rest in vitality. But then they'll still allow people to choose the stat point bonuses they go for on their gear... which will result in the same outcome.
The net result is that now people will need to find gear with + appropriate stats and + specific skills, instead of just taking care of that when they level, and items lose the opportunity to provide more interesting bonuses.
It just seems like a big mess of inconsistent design.
So what, in order to get character differentiation back into the game, they're going to put + skill bonuses on gear (instead of doing the obvious thing and just putting a gold cost on the freespecs)? I thought the whole reason they got rid of skill points was because they didn't like people just pumping one or two skills with all their points, and then losing gameplay variety. So then it would seem we're back to square one, and people are just going to be choosing one or two skills to pump with their gear, and will just end up doing damage with those.
Similarly, they got rid of allocating stat points, because it wasn't interesting in Diablo II, with everyone putting the minimum points into strength to wear their armor, and then the rest in vitality. But then they'll still allow people to choose the stat point bonuses they go for on their gear... which will result in the same outcome.
The net result is that now people will need to find gear with + appropriate stats and + specific skills, instead of just taking care of that when they level, and items lose the opportunity to provide more interesting bonuses.
It just seems like a big mess of inconsistent design.
perfectnight
Banned
This adds nothing to the game other than serve as a shitty gold sink. People are going to be respeccing all the time to try out different builds so they removed this artificial limitation by simply allowing you to try any skill whenever you want.
Except for the fact that gear is in constant supply while skill points were not. If you want to try whatever build tickles your fancy you can simply hunt for the gear you want or buy it from the AH as opposed to making a new character, leveling back up to 60 and then finding out the build is shit.
See above. Stat points were in limited supply while items are not. It is much easier to make a specialized build with items than having to make a new character from scratch every time you want to try something new.
So now I won't have to make a new character every time I want to try a different part of my character. Sounds like a win win to me. How is this inconsistent? Doesn't seem like you really thought this through.
Thanks for saving me the time of typin this up
Some people just don't see the big picture. Blizzard understands that this is a loot driven game and as such is figuring out ways to adopt their current systems to increase the drive for people to find loot (and use the AH). Simple as that.
I've been following the skill rune arguments since it was announced last week, and I really did not want to dip my feet into the water, but after getting a bit frustrated at the heated arguments going on (in most cases, might I add, both parties are correct on certain terms, but wrong on different terms, which creates a never-ending-argument), I have to give my two-cents at a compromise.
What if....
They made a system that gradually unlocked all the skill runes for you, but then present you with points to invest into which ones you like most after you've unlocked all skill runes?
So, thinking wildly off the top of my head here, let's say all skill rune abilities unlock at, say, 40, and then you get get a point to invest into a skill rune for the next 20 levels, as well as gather some points during quests during the game (3?), adding up to a total of 32 points or so. I don't know. They can get the numbers right.
Benefits of this:
- You keep the experimentation aspect of skill rune unlocks
- You keep the 'Every level up counts' mentality
- You keep the freedom of altering builds (there would be some respec option that would ramp up)
- You grant less ubiquity
- You grant the feeling of making you stronger
- You grant the ability to make your character more into what you want it to be
Not too bad, right? Oh, and the UI is ridiculously bad with the new system. I can't even see the required levels for two Wizard skills in the 'skill categories.'
Lordy out.
What if....
They made a system that gradually unlocked all the skill runes for you, but then present you with points to invest into which ones you like most after you've unlocked all skill runes?
So, thinking wildly off the top of my head here, let's say all skill rune abilities unlock at, say, 40, and then you get get a point to invest into a skill rune for the next 20 levels, as well as gather some points during quests during the game (3?), adding up to a total of 32 points or so. I don't know. They can get the numbers right.
Benefits of this:
- You keep the experimentation aspect of skill rune unlocks
- You keep the 'Every level up counts' mentality
- You keep the freedom of altering builds (there would be some respec option that would ramp up)
- You grant less ubiquity
- You grant the feeling of making you stronger
- You grant the ability to make your character more into what you want it to be
Not too bad, right? Oh, and the UI is ridiculously bad with the new system. I can't even see the required levels for two Wizard skills in the 'skill categories.'
Lordy out.
I think some of us are getting it... but I still think a lot of people are missing what will be an essential, vital part of this game: the AH.
I don't entirely understand how the skill affixes will work, but it is my understanding that they can be added to weapons through what I am assuming is a separate item. Even if that isn't entirely true, I think its pretty clear that you have all the customization freedom you need via the AH. Maybe many of us are as close minded to thinking that the AH will not give us what we seek... but that's because the BEST version of an AH system (in my opinion) was based on a server basis (WoW).
D3's AH will be, it seems, at least nationwide. That's a lot of people... posting a lot of items. The size of this AH will astound you.
Gems. Affixes. Gear. Weapons. You will be able to customize your character, through gear, easier than you think, due to the sheer size of the AH and the vast amounts of items that will be at your disposal.
I don't entirely understand how the skill affixes will work, but it is my understanding that they can be added to weapons through what I am assuming is a separate item. Even if that isn't entirely true, I think its pretty clear that you have all the customization freedom you need via the AH. Maybe many of us are as close minded to thinking that the AH will not give us what we seek... but that's because the BEST version of an AH system (in my opinion) was based on a server basis (WoW).
D3's AH will be, it seems, at least nationwide. That's a lot of people... posting a lot of items. The size of this AH will astound you.
Gems. Affixes. Gear. Weapons. You will be able to customize your character, through gear, easier than you think, due to the sheer size of the AH and the vast amounts of items that will be at your disposal.
Oh, don't get me wrong here. I am the biggest loot whore you know when it comes to playing Diablo. I am looking forward to that aspect game of the game more than any other by far.
That doesn't mean that we should ignore a portion of the game the should grant additional customization. Not to mention, adding customization to the skill side impacts the fun on the item side as well. Instead of finding those items for, say, your Cold Sorc, you're now just finding them for your Wizard. Or you might find a great item that would fit for a Sword wielding Barb, but you have an Axe wielding Barb, and it might inspire you to make a whole new Barb just to fit the item.
More customization done right is a better overall experience.
I don't care what the rune system is. I just want to play this fucking game already.
@Lordy: the skill system already shows that blizz want to move away from that Diablo 2 style design. Blizz wants everybody to be able to use any build with the one character. People need to drop the D2 mindset already. Besides, with respecs, Cold Sorc, Axe Barb, Bowazon etc, is just another build, not another character.
@Lordy: the skill system already shows that blizz want to move away from that Diablo 2 style design. Blizz wants everybody to be able to use any build with the one character. People need to drop the D2 mindset already. Besides, with respecs, Cold Sorc, Axe Barb, Bowazon etc, is just another build, not another character.
Good points, but I would like to mention that this is a large deviation from the 'D2 Mindset'. No skill tree, all skills are available to you, and you can still use any build with one character. This just solves the problem of 'How do I make mine unique from other players?' I think that's a cool element to try to keep in the game.
I think you're pretty much correct here, given that respecs are available (so if I have a Javazon, and want to play a bowazon, it's just a respec away). I would mention though, I think people like the idea of having different characters that master different things, and even though these separate builds are only respecs and item swaps away, I think players enjoy starting a new adventure in order to obtain a different goal.
Really this is my problem with what I understand of D3. I'm ok with the system in general, it seems like a lot of fun and I have no problem with 'free' respecs at all.
But I want to be able to direct the evolution of my character, and I want to be able to buff it for a particular kind of play if I feel like it it. So not being able to really choose *anything* about my character as I level it up is really unappealing.
Passives and Gear.
I'd like to be able to pick runes though, even at penalties for higher tiered affects or something.
I think bosses have been datamined or something
Well with a limited number of ability slots you're definitely having to make choices as you level. Having to come up with viable builds with limited resources could make things a bit more interesting as well. I think choosing from a small predetermined group of abilities/runes when you level up could be a good way of allowing a little bit more tailoring to your progression path without Blizzard letting you cherry pick from the entire ability/rune list.
Having played all classes to 13 with runes now in the game, I certainly feel like I was testing out the different abilities/runes and having to choose what to use and what not to use. After trying many abilities that were just okay compared to the current level counterparts, I was damn glad I was only 15 seconds away from changing it out.
No one has seen this yet?
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4079872821
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/4079872821
Jay Wilson wanted to share a message with the Diablo III community:
Some of you might have seen some headlines or a certain (obviously sarcastic) blue post that implies that we're unsteady about where Diablo III stands, and that you should temper your expectations when it comes to the next installment in the Diablo series.
Let me be clear: Nothing could be further from the truth.
As those of you in the beta have seen, the game is in good shape. Actually, I should say that the beta version of the game is in good shape. The latest full build we've been testing here in the office is in great shape.
We get a lot of sympathy from the other teams because of the long hours of crunch our design team is putting in, but the secret is that playing through the game as we do final tuning, bug fixes, and optimizations is a real joy. We always know a Blizzard game is almost ready when we have to ask members of the team to stop playing so they can get their work done. That’s definitely been the case around here.
We think you're going to love Diablo III when it's released, and speaking of release plans, you can seriously expect a launch-date announcement from us in the near future. See, I didn’t say “soon,” so I’m not taunting you.
And by the way, we want you to have high expectations for Diablo III and all Blizzard games. That’s what pushes us to try to make the best gaming experiences we possibly can. If Diablo III wasn’t a worthy next installment in the Diablo series, we wouldn’t release it. That’s the way we do it. That’s the way we’ve always done it.
As I’ve said many times in the recent past, we think Diablo III is coming along great and we can’t wait for you to get your hands on it. We’re doing all we can to ensure you have one hell of a time once you step foot in Sanctuary…
Also, I think Diablo is much more comparable to the Evil Dead series personally, and those just kept getting better. OK, I know a lot of you prefer Evil Dead 2 to Army of Darkness, but come on, Bruce Campbell fights a squad of little Bruce Campbells! Priceless. =)
Jay Wilson is the Game Director of Diablo 3, and wants to know “Hey, uh, what’s that you got on your face?” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxBCSautRXY
Traumahound
Member
Sounds like Bashiok must be getting an earful at work.
LOL...talk about damage control. Hey, every Blizzard CM needs to have his annual nervous breakdown (we saw a couple with WoW).
At least he's talking about a release date, even if it's obviously still another tease.
- Status