But i mean, the motivation might nebulous, but if you call them inefficient, batman is the most inefficient because he aint doing jackshit but wasting his money in ineffectual crime fighting, in the very least, tony stark is less of a waste because more often than not, nobody has the resources to fight the shit he fights, he has to be ironman, while the world could do without batman.
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Do Batman's parents need to be murdered?
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But i mean, the motivation might nebulous, but if you call them inefficient, batman is the most inefficient because he aint doing jackshit but wasting his money in ineffectual crime fighting, in the very least, tony stark is less of a waste because more often than not, nobody has the resources to fight the shit he fights, he has to be ironman, while the world could do without batman.
I don't think his parents needed to be killed for him to become Batman. But he'd need some other kind of motivation to get him to do something that extreme. I think a lot of us would love to clean up our communities and better them if they're in a state of decay. I don't know if we'd dress up in a Bat costume and terrify criminals, though.
I think Bruce would have eventually gotten there as Batman, especially if he saw that the efforts of Wayne Enterprises weren't helping to improve Gotham City. I can see a storyline where a young Bruce is being groomed to take over Wayne Enterprises, and he learns that his father is beholden to corrupt executives and criminal strong-arming, and he decides to use his resources to attack that criminal element as a vigilante. I think either way you could craft a story where Bruce still becomes Batman with both of his parents being alive. I think the thirst for revenge in some way definitely drives Bruce, but I also think that he loves his city and wants to see it thrive.
I think Bruce would have eventually gotten there as Batman, especially if he saw that the efforts of Wayne Enterprises weren't helping to improve Gotham City. I can see a storyline where a young Bruce is being groomed to take over Wayne Enterprises, and he learns that his father is beholden to corrupt executives and criminal strong-arming, and he decides to use his resources to attack that criminal element as a vigilante. I think either way you could craft a story where Bruce still becomes Batman with both of his parents being alive. I think the thirst for revenge in some way definitely drives Bruce, but I also think that he loves his city and wants to see it thrive.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
The best Batman backstory is Bizarro Batman where his parents shot him to death.
Man Called Aerodynamics
Member
There are Batman stories that show him also working the system as Bruce Wayne by day. Building hospitals, stumping for Harvey Dent, and such.
TheChewyWaffles
Member
A movie deal.
It's super important. Otherwise, why doesn't he use his influence and resources more effectively to change Gotham over time? Invest in public services, build a youth centre, start an apprenticeship programme at Wayne Enterprises... All of these would have longer lasting and more significant benefits than running around at night punching people, but lack the immediacy.
Exactly. Without the death of his parents, the criticism that Bruce is just living out a power fantasy becomes too appropriate.
UnemployedVillain
Member
In his defense, maybe he mistook Africa for a country, or a city. It happens
Iorv3th
Member
But starks parents were also murdered? If it happened when he was younger maybe he would have become batman instead of iron man?
IMO If he left home before he was an adult, and just did it independent of being Batman as he was out there, that's still putzing around, but it's fine. If he does it as a grown adult with the intended purpose of being Batman that's fine. If he's doing it early on in life with the intended purpose of being Batman, that just makes young Bruce Wayne look like an idiot. Not even crazy, just stupid and unsupervised.
HyperCroutons
Member
Funny you pointed out BVS because them ham-fisting that into their doesn't work mostly because Batman goes on to kill an insane amount of henchman throughout the movie, pretty much engaging in the type of violence that got his parents killed. If they would have removed that origin story it wouldn't quite seem as out of place when Batman begins killing people and using guns too.
But regarding other Batman universes beside Synder's, I think Batman's parents dying give him the motivation to continue on his parents dreams of making Gotham a better place to live. If he didn't have that event happen in his life or something similar he probaly just be that Billionaire playboy he always acts like when he's not batman but it would his life instead of batman.
But regarding other Batman universes beside Synder's, I think Batman's parents dying give him the motivation to continue on his parents dreams of making Gotham a better place to live. If he didn't have that event happen in his life or something similar he probaly just be that Billionaire playboy he always acts like when he's not batman but it would his life instead of batman.
Yes, it's his entire driving motivation. He does what he does so the same thing doesn't happen to others.
Batman not processing death and loss in healthy ways is pretty much his defining character trait. Without that inciting traumatic experience he'd be doing something different with his life.
The problem with a lot of Batman stories is writers who constantly rehash the point and use it as a central thematic device. We get it, his parents are dead. Not every story needs to be about that.
Batman not processing death and loss in healthy ways is pretty much his defining character trait. Without that inciting traumatic experience he'd be doing something different with his life.
The problem with a lot of Batman stories is writers who constantly rehash the point and use it as a central thematic device. We get it, his parents are dead. Not every story needs to be about that.
I mean he's a billionaire child with delusions of grandeur about fighting crime and righting the wrongs in Gotham City. He's an idiot by anyone standards trying to live a conventional life but that's kind of my point. He wasn't just back packing across Europe having flings and partying. Most of his stops are always to build a skill he know's he'll need in the future in many incarnations of his origin story. I'm not sure why him doing it as an adult is any different than when he's a child, if anything coming to this realization that he needs to train to be a superhero as a grown ass man seems even more foolish and childish than an actual child coming up with said scheme and being able to enact it because of his amount of money and clout.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Yeah. Tragic hero formula says yes. Think how many superheroes, hell, any characters from fiction have their backgrounds shaped by personal tragedy. Daredevil, Spider-Man, Harry Potter, Frodo Bagging.
What's odd is how usually this makes them better people and gives them some greater goal, when in reality it would probably give them immense emotional issues.
What's odd is how usually this makes them better people and gives them some greater goal, when in reality it would probably give them immense emotional issues.
Let's see what Marvel's Batman says
His parents don't need to die for him to care about crime in Gotham, but they need to die to make him Batman, unless you go with the old story in which case his dad was also batman.
Even then, he'd just be a vigilante hero, not Batman.
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
Pretty sure that was a dream. He even murmurs something to that effect right after that scene ends.
Sometimes I wonder if people reading/watching Batman realize they're watching a superhero story whose whole conceit is entirely fictional because sometimes it sounds like y'all just want something completely different. Of course he dresses up in a stupid costume and fights crime physically. That's what superheroes do and what the majority of their storylines center on. Bruce has been shown to do what people here talk about (using his money and company to help people besides just fighting crime) but that's not the story DC is interested in telling issue in and issue out.
There's an older Batman story called "To Kill a Legend" where he gets a chance to save his parents in an alternative universe.
Spoiler: the Bruce Wayne whose parents live grows up to be Batman anyway.
Here's the relevant panel:
Came to post this, it was the only Batman comic I ever had as a kid and that story left an impression on me.
They do have immense emotional issues. The point is that the trauma doesn't stop them from trying to do good. Those stories are supposed to be uplifting and inspirational.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
The villains in the same stories usually.
BrianRoyale
Member
But there's the Specter.
acheron_xl
Member
Maybe he preordered No Man's Sky.
BossLackey
Gold Member
Razgriz-Specter
Member
To make Batman as much of a fucked up character as he is absolutely.
However I really wish they played up his new family as having a healing effect, however the Batfamily stuff always gets thrown to the side anyway from one writer to the next.
However I really wish they played up his new family as having a healing effect, however the Batfamily stuff always gets thrown to the side anyway from one writer to the next.
Coriolanus
Banned
I don't know who those guys yall linked are supposed to be, but they sure ain't marvel's batsie.
TheSecondSpitter
Member
False. His origin story is whatever the owners of his intellectual property who exercise creative control want.
The difference for me between all those options is the motivations and what that says about the character. If he was traveling the world from a young age and learned those skills independently of being Batman it's not only telling of who Bruce Wayne as a person is, but also of his determination and natural talent. If he decided to become Batman afterwards for whatever reason and used those talents, that is childish, but we still get to see him be the mature level headed Batman, so we know that no matter how absurd the decision to become Batman was, he was not only capable but justified. It's still a stupid decision, but one that I can see coming from a rich guy with confidence that he could actually succeed on some level.
If he was a kid who honestly thought he could travel the world learning how to be a crime fighter, then he's just and idiot who tripped into success before someone could stop him. When a billionaire adult does it, he's an immature idiot potentially throwing his life away, but he would (or at least should) be aware of that. Said kid wouldn't have that self-awareness. For that child to actually follow through on that all the way to adulthood and become Batman make Adult Bruce Wayne seem less immature, and more delusional. You can hand wave it away with the fact that he's mentally damaged and the trauma of his parents death, but he's not really shown to be a mentally damaged person struggling with his parents death, or at least not struggling with it in a way that explains Batman.
That's ultimately my problem with his origin. I'm not a hardcore comic fan, but Bruce Wayne is a really smart, really talented, and outwardly well adjusted person (aside from the superhero thing which I can easily buy into because he lives in a world where that's just a thing that exist), who happens to have traumatic experience involving his parents death. Does that experience inform his character and explain his behavior as Bruce Wayne/Batman? Yes. Does that experience justify him becoming Batman? No, because he's rarely ever shown to be the psycho viewers paint him as to explain why that would make any sense at all. Sure it would get a pass back when origins just needed to give a bluntly relevant how/why, but now it (to me) it just comes off as bad writing getting a looked over.
If you're just tryna make Batman, then yea, I feel like you need that tragedy part in order for him to suit up as Bat and patrol the nights in Gotham.
But for just Bruce Wayne, even without the tragedy, whether he becomes a Lawyer, Doctor, Private Detective, Commissioner,
Dude is just destined to engage against evil in any DC timeline or universe, Gotham just got too much shit. lol
But for just Bruce Wayne, even without the tragedy, whether he becomes a Lawyer, Doctor, Private Detective, Commissioner,
Dude is just destined to engage against evil in any DC timeline or universe, Gotham just got too much shit. lol
Coriolanus
Banned
That's mostly because fans threw a fit when All-Star Batman and Robin actually went and depicted him as wot he is.
It is childish though and that's kind of the point. A child enacts this plan before he's probably even hit puberty and has no one to really tell him no except Alfred and he is often portrayed as looking after Bruce and trying to mold him into a good responsible person but he also enables him to do as he pleases. Even when he does put his foot down about something its not like Bruce just listens to him, especially concerning his burning desire for vengeance and to right the wrongs that led to his parents death.
You seem to be under the assumption that damage is only if he acts like a crazed monster or does violent things or what not. Bruce's damage isn't so surface level and superficial, his entire mindset was damaged and probably destroyed when his parents were murdered in front of him. Both because of how useless he felt after the fact that he could do nothing to stop them but that there was also such evil out their running a muck and robbing other kids of their futures.
His insanity isnt some frothing out the mouth talking to himself obvious madness, no its a deep seated conviction that almost no one will ever ever come close to achieving. Bruce goes beyond what any pro athlete or what not does. His "madness" is so deep, so pure that it basically breaks him as a person. Bruce isn't a terrible person but Bruce isn't a person anymore, he's Batman now. Batman is who he is on the inside and there are many moments in the different mediums on him where he says as such. Bruce is the mask he wears to the world and Batman is who he is at heart. In Batman Beyond he even says he calls himself Batman in his mind, not Bruce.
So yeah he isn't crazy or a psycho or anything so simple but to say he thinks at all like a sane level headed man is not accurate either, far from it. Bruce is deranged and crazy in an incredibly specific manner.
elrechazado
Banned
When did I say he's inefficient? Batman could be motivated by any number of things. The point was we have a perfectly apt non metahuman billionaire in stark whose power is being a smart, rich, human. Nobody asks why stark does it, and if they do its not central to his original story and mythology. Therefore, you could have a batman who is just a dude who believes he needs to fill dome niche in crime fighting society and his parents could be perfectly fine. It's not essential to crime fighters that their parents were murder victims.
I always find it weird when people bring up the 'efficiency' of Batman's crime fighting. It's a comic book, the writers will always need to bring in more criminals for him to fight. Do you want the city to be full on saved and crime in Gotham to be wiped out?
Apply this same argument to any other superhero and you could reach the same conclusion. Spiderman is ineffective because his villains are still alive?
To the argument that Batman makes things worse by inspiring these psychos, this is a stronger point, but honestly Joker, Penguin and company aren't going to pack it in once Batman hangs up his cape.
Apply this same argument to any other superhero and you could reach the same conclusion. Spiderman is ineffective because his villains are still alive?
To the argument that Batman makes things worse by inspiring these psychos, this is a stronger point, but honestly Joker, Penguin and company aren't going to pack it in once Batman hangs up his cape.
Coriolanus
Banned
The counter-argument there is usually that pretty much every other league member can take care of a city without turning it into a living hellscape.
Frozenprince
Banned
Let's see what Marvel's Batman says
And then he became a literal demon while leading an army of shadow ninjas made of darkness to kill people for money.
Or is this after shadowland I stopped reading until Waid got it.
Wasn't Gotham always like this though? It was always a shithole plagued by crime. And the city would still be a hellscape if Batman gave up.
There's an older Batman story called "To Kill a Legend" where he gets a chance to save his parents in an alternative universe.
Spoiler: the Bruce Wayne whose parents live grows up to be Batman anyway.
Here's the relevant panel:
I vaguely remember a comic where Batman saw something somehow where he saw his parents knew that their death would lead to him becoming Batman and they still took a walk down Crime Alley.
Frozenprince
Banned
General rule of thumb is "avoid any stories that deal with his parents like the plague".
MisterHero
Super Member
What if they died but were sent to the future and revived? We can have Batman and he can safely meet his parents after his career is ended.
Time travel!
Also, Bruce was the Flying Fox (in the Robin costume) before his parents died.
Time travel!
Also, Bruce was the Flying Fox (in the Robin costume) before his parents died.
in one continuity
Jest Chillin
Member
Bruce doesn't "snap" per say but his mental state is significantly altered..just not in the psychotic way. He is pretty much magically obsessive with his obsession being attached to his feeling of helplessness and loss during their death.
This is why he adheres to a strict code and why he has the bat family. All of it is a coping mechanism and it's the basis of his justification of his feeling of superiority to every other hero (I.E. his contingency plans if they turn).
He's obsessed with his mission and code to the point that because no one else feels and operates exactly as he does, he doubts them.
It's definitely in line with his origin.
Coriolanus
Banned
...huh. And metropolis already was pretty dang awesome before supes showed up.
hrm...
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