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[nkarafo]

Was watching a couple of DF Retro videos showing some Genesis games and they looked horrible with all those raw pixels and heavy dithering.

And it's the same thing with modern releases of old games. At best you get a bilinear filter and a very simple scan-line overlay.

RetroArch is the only platform where i can see these games look somewhat correct, if i use a good CRT shader that also blends dithering.

Here is a very good video that explains what i'm talking about:




And here are some other examples. Here's how people today think a Genesis game looks like:

Here's how it's supposed to look:

Notice how the colors blend with each other. This creates extra colors and even transparencies in other cases. More examples here: http://nerdlypleasures.blogspot.com/2015/03/the-case-for-composite.html


And here are some RAW screen-shots VS CRT captures. Look how rounded the sprites in the CRT images look despite the zooming.

In conclusion, these games are not supposed to look like a sharp, pixellated mess. The common CRT and even the composite blending was something the developers had in mind when designing these games. Without those its like you are missing an important layer and it's not the result the developers wanted. And this is why most indie "retro" 2D games look so dad IMO, it's because they get their reference from raw emulator images instead of how the games actually looked. We never had to see sharp, fat pixels on our CRTs with our composite cables.

EDIT: Here's a comparison of a raw pixel image of DKC country VS a custom CRT shader in RetroArch (zoom in a bit if you are on a phone):

Which version you think should be the representative for this game?

 

[Mista]

Not really and they shouldn't. They served their time and were mind blowing back then

If the gaming tech back then was advanced as today, we would've definitely saw todays games but back in the 90's

Even the developers grew better through years just like the gaming tech. So heres that

 

[Birdo]

Those games were not supposed to look like that. It was a bi-product of old screen tech that devs hated. Now they can shine and be crisp.

Back in the day, we spent so much time trying to get rid of that blur. Doing RGB mods and all sorts to get rid of it.

 

[01011001]

I like the dithering in some games... I actually like how that Earthworm Jim screenshot looks with sharp pixels.
and I also like how Street Fighter 2 looks there...

and especially later 2D games like Street Fighter 3, or Garou look fucking amazing to me with super sharp pixels... or PS1 titles like SotN

also not all games were supposed to look like that, there are older games that were made with PC CRTs in mind, and those displayed really sharp looking pixels.
it's only some games that used pixels like this, usually on very limited hardware like the Genesis, which had a pretty limited colour pallet compared to the SNES for example.

and even there, usually only western developed games tried to use CRT TVs to smooth the image

 

[nkarafo]

Not really and they shouldn't. They served their time and were mind blowing back then

If the gaming tech back then was advanced as today, we would've definitely saw todays games but back in the 90's

Even the developers grew better through years just like the gaming tech. So heres that

I'm not comparing modern games with old ones. I'm talking about how low resolution games look on modern setups. they look wrong and people have a wrong impression about them.

Those games were not supposed to look like that. It was a bi-product of old screen tech that devs hated. Now they can shine and be crisp.

Back in the day, we spent so much time trying to get rid of that blur. Doing RGB mods and all sorts to get rid of it.

In most cases, especially with the Genesis, when you use RGB you lose extra colors and transparencies.

The point isn't which looks better for you or me, it's either they look correct or not.

 

[Hendrick's]

Just smudge vaseline on your TV

 

[nkarafo]

Here's how that EWJ screen looks on my RetroArch setup:

There's still some dithering left but i feel it looks good and sharp enough at the same time. It's S-video filtering with a bit of composite blending.

 

[Elektro Demon]

We regressed in terms of display technology. Lcd tech is smaller, more efficient but games simply looked better on crt tv's and monitors. I recently visited my buddy from another city, he has an old school crt monitor and still plays modern games on that screen. He even repaired it twice, I think the caps went bad and the other time the something related to the tube itself went wrong. It's crt but it has rgb analog inputs. I played a little bit bfV on that screen and I was amazed. That thing in 720i resolution looks better then modern flat panel lcd tv's reproducing 4k content. I was shocked. And the refresh rate, my god how we regressed.

 

[cormack12]

Not a problem for me but I found the video very interesting, thanks!

 

[nkarafo]

We regressed in terms of display technology. Lcd tech is smaller, more efficient but games simply looked better on crt tv's and monitors. I recently visited my buddy from another city, he has an old school crt monitor and still plays modern games on that screen. He even repaired it twice, I think the caps went bad and the other time the something related to the tube itself went wrong. It's crt but it has rgb analog inputs. I played a little bit bfV on that screen and I was amazed. That thing in 720i resolution looks better then modern flat panel lcd tv's reproducing 4k content. I was shocked. And the refresh rate, my god how we regressed.

I agree. I can't stand the motion blur and ghosting of modern panels. That's why i can only get by with a 240hz screen today. Even 144hz don't cut it compared to a CRT. 240hz is very close but still not quite.

And let's not mention anything about input lag...

 

[Caffeine]

ye I was playing some gba games on lcd and it was pissing me off that they were all pixely on the edges. i could have swore they looked better. I wish windows had a crt filter option lol.
I honestly dont understand how to setup retroarch. theres a lot of setup. and most of the cores are not as good as executable emus or really outdated builds.

 

[nkarafo]

usually only western developed games tried to use CRT TVs to smooth the image

This is false. Sonic games on the Genesis/Mega Drive is a very common example of transparencies with composite blending. Same with Streets of Rage 2, Sparkster, Castle of Illusion, etc, from the top of my head.

ye I was playing some gba games on lcd and it was pissing me off that they were all pixely on the edges. i could have swore they looked better. I wish windows had a crt filter option lol.
I honestly dont understand how to setup retroarch. theres a lot of setup. and most of the cores are not as good as executable emus or really outdated builds.

GBA games are even lower resolution. There is no way for them to look good when you expand them all over a big screen.

As for RetroArch i agree that it's a bit of a pain to setup. But once you get it you can't go back. 90% of cores are good and up-to-date.

 

[01011001]

This is false. Sonic games on the Genesis/Mega Drive is a very common example of transparencies with composite blending.

I said usually. not 100% of the time.

the MegaDrive specially often needed developers to do that in order to keep up with the SNES.
I hardly know japanese SNES games that obviously used techniques like this.

 

[nkarafo]

I said usually. not 100% of the time.

the MegaDrive specially often needed developers to do that in order to keep up with the SNES.
I hardly know japanese SNES games that obviously used techniques like this.

Even if you ignore the dithering you are still left with fat, raw pixels. Again, not how games were supposed to look. CRTs smoothed those pixels and developers knew this, so they made the raw graphics according to that. At least a bilinear filter should be the absolute minimum for retro games if you don't have a good CRT shader.

Yes, it looks blurrier but it also looks correct. Even if you zoom in more you can still make out the brick pattern in the filtered image.

 

[-Arcadia-]

We regressed in terms of display technology. Lcd tech is smaller, more efficient but games simply looked better on crt tv's and monitors. I recently visited my buddy from another city, he has an old school crt monitor and still plays modern games on that screen. He even repaired it twice, I think the caps went bad and the other time the something related to the tube itself went wrong. It's crt but it has rgb analog inputs. I played a little bit bfV on that screen and I was amazed. That thing in 720i resolution looks better then modern flat panel lcd tv's reproducing 4k content. I was shocked. And the refresh rate, my god how we regressed.

Latest DF video is getting at this exact thing.

 

[nkarafo]

Latest DF video is getting at this exact thing.

This is an awesome video by DF but in other videos of retro games they still show them as raw pixels

I would expect something more accurate from them, or at least mention something about it. The Sparkster video was especially painful to watch because that game uses a lot of dithering that needs to be blended.

Maybe D dark10x could comment on that?

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

I just play on a CRT. Problem solved.

 

[Naked Lunch]

I prefer the sharp pixels - absolutely hate the blurry look on HD displays.
The only way to run the old way is to play on CRT - running that blurry mess on HD sets is blasphemy.

Still, its a nice problem to have. I love that so many old games are being released on new consoles. Its now as clear as ever to me that I prefer old games to the new stuff being released today - and its not even close.

 

[kraspkibble]

we should just be glad we can still play them at all.

technology changes and improves so it's OK that they don't look exactly as they did.

 

[Shinobitron]

I have no interest in nostalgia,.

 

[nkarafo]

I have no interest in nostalgia,.

Seeing the graphics as the artists intended you to see them has nothing to do with nostalgia though.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Those games were not supposed to look like that. It was a bi-product of old screen tech that devs hated. Now they can shine and be crisp.

Back in the day, we spent so much time trying to get rid of that blur. Doing RGB mods and all sorts to get rid of it.

When I used to go over my uncle’s house and he had his NES hooked up to a small Sony color PC monitor, I was always envious at how crisp it looked compared to TVs at the time.

Seeing the graphics as the artists intended you to see them has nothing to do with nostalgia though.

I know what you mean about “correct” and how they were designed around the CRT.

With emulation, I bounce back and forth between filters or not, depending on the game.

 

[Birdo]

When I used to go over my uncle’s house and he had his NES hooked up to a small Sony color PC monitor, I was always envious at how crisp it looked compared to TVs at the time.

For years I never knew what those two composite outputs were on my NES. I spent the entire gen using RF

I mean, composite is not amazing, but it's better than RF.

 

[cireza]

...

Terrible generalization of the matter here. As a French gamer, I always had true SCART/RGB cables bundled in my Sega consoles (Master System, MegaDrive, Saturn and Dreamcast). Sega was the only company doing this by the way, Sony and Nintendo was shitty component, but almost nobody realized it anyway. Probably the same people that are happy with Doom on Switch nowadays.

It is true that dithering was meant to add color gradients when displayed through the shitty component cable. You got more colors, but an awful blurry picture.

However, not so many games heavily relied on dithering. This is greatly exaggerated in my opinion. I would never trade the RGB picture for a Component picture whose only advantage is to display some transparencies in my games.

 

[Bankai]

Yes, that's exactly the reason why I use & LOVE the CRT shaders in Retroarch so much. It's absolutely amazing what that brings to the table, in terms of old-school feel and looks.

 

[EverydayBeast]

In the last 15 years graphics have improved greatly.

 

[Caffeine]

This is false. Sonic games on the Genesis/Mega Drive is a very common example of transparencies with composite blending. Same with Streets of Rage 2, Sparkster, Castle of Illusion, etc, from the top of my head.



GBA games are even lower resolution. There is no way for them to look good when you expand them all over a big screen.

As for RetroArch i agree that it's a bit of a pain to setup. But once you get it you can't go back. 90% of cores are good and up-to-date.

ye only some cores seem to work for me others crash on startup, i got so lazy tinkering with it that I just made a transparent crt filter png and use custom desktop logo 2.2 with opacity it works with anything thats in windowed or windowed fullscreen. it feels easier on the eyes when playing for some reason.

 

[MrTroubleMaker]

Yeah in raw form they are not what the artists intended. But if you have a good emulator with good filter options you can get them close to what they are supposed to look like.

 

[Knightime_X]

As a frequent retro gamer it doesn't bother me the slightest.
In fact to me they actually look worse applying scanlines and vaseline all over the picture now.

 

[VooDooChicken]

according to your post on Earthworm Jim, no, I prefer the look that you say is wrong, and I think I am not the only one

 

[Ulysses 31]

As a frequent retro gamer it doesn't bother me the slightest.
In fact to me they actually look worse applying scanlines and vaseline all over the picture now.

Come on, the gameboy filter in Castlevania Anniversary Collection looks excellent.

 

[brap]

Is that Chris Benoit on the left?

 

[Dice]

Yes. Ryu there is a perfect example. With retro releases, more should be done to provide an accurate representation. The technology to do it really isn't that difficult.

Even if you let out dithering you are still left with fat, raw pixels. Again, not how games were supposed to look. CRTs smoothed those pixels and developers knew this, so they made the raw graphics according to that. At least a bilinear filter should be the absolute minimum for retro games if you don't have a good CRT shader.

Yes, it looks blurrier but it also looks correct. Even if you zoom in more you can still make out the brick pattern in the filtered image.

There was another example with this which shows the tops of the castle are round and not oval. The wrong output even distorts the shape of the whole image.

 

[Rolling_Start]

I prefer old console via RGB.

A good CRT is god-tier though. RGB onto a Trinitron tv or monitor is magic.

 

[00_Zer0]

I was playing Battletoads on Rare Replay the other day and couldn't stand the no filter option and the crt filter was even worse.
I have a 65 inch Samsung Q70R and I sit about 10 feet away from it. The no filter option was a pixelated mess and the CRT filter was way too blurry.

I guess I will never get to enjoy this game again, because I refuse to play it this way. I don't want to invest in buying an old CRT TV, or old systems, or go through hoops buying old games at a great expense just play them on original systems or just to emulate them on a PC.

If a modding community can use their free time, without pay, to get emulated games looking good with various filters I think developers of emulated classics should put forth just as much effort as the modding community to get these old games looking good on modern displays.

 

[alabtrosMyster]

As others pointed out, get a good CRT filter for your emulators, it will do most of the work.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Yes, it bothers me a great deal and is honestly a big part of why I don't like playing 2D games built for CRTs on LCD/OLED panels. I really need to invest in a good CRT one day.

 

[Zog]

It didn't really bother me but I saw a Sony Trinitron for sale locally for $20 and I bought it. I have all my older consoles hooked up to it and I am not going back.

NES - RF, it's looks good enough for 8 bit games
SNES & N64 - S-Video
PS2 & Wii - Component

That covers every Sony and Nintendo console up to the PS3 and Wii U because the PS2 plays PS1 discs and the Wii plays Gamecube discs.

 

[GAMETA]

I personally prefer the sharper pixels.

From the artists point of view it wasn't necessarily what they wanted it to look like, but rather a way to work around the limitations of the technology and save on performance.

That means creative solutions were what was possible to make, not some purist form of art that's supposed to look exactly like that. "You're playing it wrong" fuck that.

Same for early 3D games. They look much much better on higher resolutions, even if some techniques don't translate 100% to current tech...

 

[EightBit Man]

I know that the dithering you see in the old Mega Drive/Genesis games was a trick to fake transparency, but...I actually like the way it looks on modern displays. Very crisp, and to me aesthetically pleasing for some weird reason...

When it comes to the question of aspect ratio, I tend to ignore the "correct aspect ratio" when using emulators since fairly recently, simply because a lot of games stretch too much horizontally (circles becoming ovals, etc.).

I also used this accurate interlacing shader for bsnes as seen here (when I still used a correct aspect ratio):

Most of the interlacing filters included in commercially released titles look terrible as can be seen here:

Again, a screenshot I made using bsnes using a (external) interlacing shader:

Notice the dark lines being completely in sync with the screenshot taken from the SONY CRT television.

This is not even enabling the internal RF, Composite, or RGB filter that can be used in conjunction with this shader.

 

[Sophist]

This is especially true with game boy advance games; The sprites and color palettes were made specifically for the game boy advance screen.

 

[Caffeine]

here is another one I tried. its got tv bezels on the edges lel.

 

[TUROK]

I'm not really bothered by it, but I do love a good CRT filter. A good one does wonders for sprite-based games.

 

[nkarafo]

Come on, the gameboy filter in Castlevania Anniversary Collection looks excellent.

It's similar to the one in RetroArch

It's the only way for me to play Game Boy Classic games.

 

[theclaw135]

I won't dance around it - NTSC sucks. The antiquated television broadcast technology is a blight upon video games. It compromises image quality.
Composite blurring can help dithering, but smearing over the picture isn't the "right way".

 

[tsumake]

I won't dance around it - NTSC sucks. The antiquated television broadcast technology is a blight upon video games. It compromises image quality.
Composite blurring can help dithering, but smearing over the picture isn't the "right way".

It wasn’t so much the standard as the lack of high quality inputs on US tv sets at the time. We didn’t get RGB like other parts of the world.

The real issue with NTSC comes with watching movies. Because of the uneven way 24 frames/second divide into 29.97 fps on an NTSC signal (there is a reason for the .03 difference and there is a youtube video that explains it), the colors and motion were pretty bad - Never Twice the Same Color. PAL however was simply added a frame to make it 25 fps (50hz screen) - Perfect At Last.

This is a simple, short hand description. Personally, for gaming I’d take NTSC and its 60hz (60fps) over PAL’s 50hz, mediocre inputs aside. Have you ever seen a comparison between the PAL and NTSC version of Sonic the Hedgehog?

 

[existensmaximum]

Yeah, it sucks so much that I only play "old" games on a CRT TV on original consoles with RGB/SCART output.

Luckily many CRT TV:s here in Europe run 60 Hz perfectly fine so I've modded all my consoles.

 

[#Phonepunk#]

i will praise to the seven seas the superiority of CRTs for playing retro games. it is the one true way to play the old consoles. not just for the visual aspect, but the audio as well. there is nothing quite like hearing the NES sound chip playing Castlevania 2: Simon's Quest with the sound coming out of that set.

 

[Knightime_X]

Come on, the gameboy filter in Castlevania Anniversary Collection looks excellent.

The dot matrix squares are perfectly in uniform they look pretty good.
I've tried to find a filter that looks crisp but not blurry and I DEF dislike filters that smooth out sprites! vomit.

I wish someone could make a filter where you can control the transparency in scanlines.
And maybe a very light 2x AA filter so to not look overly blurry.

These games look totally fine on a CRT but the translation doesn't cross over too well in the world of HD.
*sigh* oh well

 

[Nightrunner]

Someone needs to make a video comparing the motion clarity of CRTs to high refresh monitors honestly. I used to have a VG248QE and it didn't really come close to old CRTs.