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[BeesEight]

Hey guys, one more cry for help. =)

Played a bit more last night and it's still not clicking. I feel like I very much COULD enjoy it, but I'm just sprouting question marks from my hairline.

I need a very basic, “here is what your game SHOULD look like” up until it hits the fan and the game becomes super dynamic.

It’s like I’m playing Starcraft without an opener, and no idea what the mid-game is supposed to look like or how to transition into it, and no idea about timings or pushes.

Can anyone give me or point me to a "Dota 2 for Dummies" intro? Example, something like 'here's your general support role how to:'
Start by purchasing the recommended items
Go to the bottom/top lane with another hero
Get xp with them, but let them get last hit for farm
Try to last hit your own guys to prevent enemy farm
Once you get to level [x] … ???

Because the thing is, I REALLY don't understand the timings at all, when do you start pushes, when do you start ganks, at what point should you roam instead of just straight lane farm. This is all completely bonkers to me! But it seems so damn intriguing!

I think things are going to get a lot better once they have coaching implemented. As it stands, there's not a lot that's really rigid that you can just check off a list.

Check out this channel:

http://www.youtube.com/user/PurgeGamers

Purge does some coaching sessions where he goes over a fair bit of general strategy and then basically watches people and gives them pointers. I would recommend checking that out. Also, see if you can't get someone to do something similar for you. I would spectate a game for you but I'm going to be away this weekend.

 

[Gully State]

Hey guys, one more cry for help. =)

Played a bit more last night and it's still not clicking. I feel like I very much COULD enjoy it, but I'm just sprouting question marks from my hairline.

I need a very basic, “here is what your game SHOULD look like” up until it hits the fan and the game becomes super dynamic.

It’s like I’m playing Starcraft without an opener, and no idea what the mid-game is supposed to look like or how to transition into it, and no idea about timings or pushes.

Can anyone give me or point me to a "Dota 2 for Dummies" intro? Example, something like 'here's your general support role how to:'
Start by purchasing the recommended items
Go to the bottom/top lane with another hero
Get xp with them, but let them get last hit for farm
Try to last hit your own guys to prevent enemy farm
Once you get to level [x] … ???

Because the thing is, I REALLY don't understand the timings at all, when do you start pushes, when do you start ganks, at what point should you roam instead of just straight lane farm. This is all completely bonkers to me! But it seems so damn intriguing!

I can't answer your question specifically but from my experience as a low level pubber (I get matched into high/mid level games as well), lanes typically break down at around the 10-15 min mark when the first towers go down. First coordinated ganks typically happen shortly after the person in mid lane hits level 6-7. Now obviously there are wild variations on that but that's what I generally see...

 

[cdyhybrid]

Hey guys, one more cry for help. =)

Played a bit more last night and it's still not clicking. I feel like I very much COULD enjoy it, but I'm just sprouting question marks from my hairline.

I need a very basic, “here is what your game SHOULD look like” up until it hits the fan and the game becomes super dynamic.

It’s like I’m playing Starcraft without an opener, and no idea what the mid-game is supposed to look like or how to transition into it, and no idea about timings or pushes.

Can anyone give me or point me to a "Dota 2 for Dummies" intro? Example, something like 'here's your general support role how to:'
Start by purchasing the recommended items
Go to the bottom/top lane with another hero
Get xp with them, but let them get last hit for farm
Try to last hit your own guys to prevent enemy farm
Once you get to level [x] … ???

Because the thing is, I REALLY don't understand the timings at all, when do you start pushes, when do you start ganks, at what point should you roam instead of just straight lane farm. This is all completely bonkers to me! But it seems so damn intriguing!

Like others have said, you just have to play a lot. You eventually develop the ability to look at a situation, hero hp, etc., and immediately predict how a fight would go. Or look at the minimap and determine if it's safe to push that tower.

I've never really tried to describe what makes someone "good" but I think an easy way to describe it is game-sense/game-awareness. You kind of develop a spidey-sense by looking at the minimap and predicting what happens next based on where you are in the game.

TL;DR play a shitload of games.

 

[BigAT]

A lot of the guides at playdota are two or three years old; is that ok? I know that if I got two year old Starcraft info, it would be borderline useless.

The guide to the basics are still fine, at least they were for me.

One other thing I'll add, I find that one of the most under-emphasized aspects of learning Dota, much like Starcraft, is information and scouting. Knowing where the five enemy heroes are will help you greatly, especially in avoiding getting ganked. Place wards and try to check on other lanes whenever possible. Knowledge is power!

 

[Gully State]

So I have a question about positioning....do you guys have any tips on how to engage with melee in general? I find myself always out of position when it comes to chasing down people for kills in melee. People get away way too much when I have the upperhand...

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

Like others have said, you just have to play a lot.

I totally agree with this sentiment. But at this point, since I've never played this kind of game before, I literally just don't understand what to do AT ALL.

While I know the ultimate goal is to destroy the other team's base, I really don't understand how an individual gets from minute 1 to minute 50.

It's like someone gave me a basketball court and 9 guys to play with and said, "Have more points than them when the final buzzer sounds!"

But I don't know what dribbling is, who the center is, how possession works and what the tip-off is, what a forward does, what constitutes a foul, how to use a timeout, the difference between a free-throw and a three-pointer, or what a pick-and-roll is. All that I know is: Get more points than the other team.

In theory, I would eventually figure it out. But it would help if someone said, "Ok, your role is shooting guard. What you need to do is ..."

Here, I'll try to phrase my confusion as questions:

Let's say I'm playing as Bounty Hunter.

• When the game starts, I go to the bottom with another hero.
  
• At the start of the game, do I just stand there with the other hero, and compete with them for last hits?

Let's say I'm playing as support, maybe Crystal Maiden.

• When the game starts, I go to the top with another hero.
  
• At the start of the game, do I just stand there with the other hero, and let them farm last hits while I focus on deny?
  
• As things progress, do I typically just stick with that hero and help them make kills and pushes?

 

[Swag]

Whats your Steam name Snakes?

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

Whats your Steam name Snakes?

Laserbot

 

[Swag]

Photo with an arrow pointing upwards?

 

[Guesong]

Here, I'll try to phrase my confusion as questions:

Let's say I'm playing as Bounty Hunter.

• When the game starts, I go to the bottom with another hero.
  
• At the start of the game, do I just stand there with the other hero, and compete with them for last hits?

Let's say I'm playing as support, maybe Crystal Maiden.

• When the game starts, I go to the top with another hero.
  
• At the start of the game, do I just stand there with the other hero, and let them farm last hits while I focus on deny?
  
• As things progress, do I typically just stick with that hero and help them make kills and pushes?

Bounty Hunter case :

No. You do not "compete" for the last hit as BH ; you get them. Bounty Hunter is a ganker/semi-carry that needs his items to be effective. You should be laned with a support partner, preferably ranged, that should help keep the heat off you, deny creeps, and harass enemy heroes.

Bounty Hunter may go to the long lane as well though ; he can manage fairly well there since he can go stealth in case of emergency and survive.

Crystal Maiden case :

Depends on team composition ; may be laned with another support hero who has a good disable to try and land early kills in the lane. Elsewise, Crystal Maiden is purely a support type ; meaning you will NOT try to lasthit enemy creeps, leaving the gold for your partner. You will try to deny your own creeps as soon as you can, and if the enemy hero comes too close and is vulnerable for a possible kill, you try to go for it (again depending on your partner always).

Once the game has progressed like 8-10 minutes in, and that your partner seems to have a good time farming and enemy presence has diminished in the lane, feel free to start roaming to other lanes to try and set up ganks and kills, or to secure the farm of whoever hero needs to farm in that lane.

 

[Sgt.Pepper]

Anyone else getting disconnected a lot?

 

[Epix]

I totally agree with this sentiment. But at this point, since I've never played this kind of game before, I literally just don't understand what to do AT ALL.

While I know the ultimate goal is to destroy the other team's base, I really don't understand how an individual gets from minute 1 to minute 50.

It's like someone gave me a basketball court and 9 guys to play with and said, "Have more points than them when the final buzzer sounds!"

But I don't know what dribbling is, who the center is, how possession works and what the tip-off is, what a forward does, what constitutes a foul, how to use a timeout, the difference between a free-throw and a three-pointer, or what a pick-and-roll is. All that I know is: Get more points than the other team.

In theory, I would eventually figure it out. But it would help if someone said, "Ok, your role is shooting guard. What you need to do is ..."

Here, I'll try to phrase my confusion as questions:

Let's say I'm playing as Bounty Hunter.

• When the game starts, I go to the bottom with another hero.
  
• At the start of the game, do I just stand there with the other hero, and compete with them for last hits?

Let's say I'm playing as support, maybe Crystal Maiden.

• When the game starts, I go to the top with another hero.
  
• At the start of the game, do I just stand there with the other hero, and let them farm last hits while I focus on deny?
  
• As things progress, do I typically just stick with that hero and help them make kills and pushes?

Google "<Hero> Dota 2 Guide"
Read the guide and get an idea about that hero's strength/weaknesses and what your team will likely expect you to be doing.
Jump into a game and try and follow the guide as far as what you should be doing. The game will start becoming more intutitve (you'll start to sense when a gank might be coming, or when the other team is doing Roshan).
Bottom line is to read what people have written about each hero, and get in there and mix it up.

 

[cdyhybrid]

With a carry you want to farm. That means last hit as much as possible, while staying alive. Try to avoid getting harassed or ganked, and stay in lane to get as much exp and gold as possible. Maybe do a quick organized gank if it lines up that way. Most carries have a particular item that greatly increases their power or survivability. You want to get that item as soon as possible. For example, whatever Lothar's is called now for Drow (the item that lets you windwalk).

 

[Finalow]

so much fail by this ns.

 

[JustinBB7]

With a carry you want to farm. That means last hit as much as possible, while staying alive. Try to avoid getting harassed or ganked, and stay in lane to get as much exp and gold as possible. Maybe do a quick organized gank if it lines up that way. Most carries have a particular item that greatly increases their power or survivability. You want to get that item as soon as possible. For example, whatever Lothar's is called now for Drow (the item that lets you windwalk).

Shadow blade

 

[Schweinehund]

So I have a question about positioning....do you guys have any tips on how to engage with melee in general? I find myself always out of position when it comes to chasing down people for kills in melee. People get away way too much when I have the upperhand...

Force staff/blink. Even early game orb of venom can be good. Phase can be good too.

Sometimes it's just the way your team is built. You'll be kited to infinity if your team doesn't have slows or stun.

 

[Exuro]

Lycan pick. Time to see how he plays.

 

[JustinBB7]

Lycan pick. Time to see how he plays.

Was already picked in the Joindota masters finale as well. Didn't go that well though.

 

[SnakeswithLasers]

Photo with an arrow pointing upwards?

Yup.

 

[Neki]

Laserbot

prepare to get swindled

 

[Gully State]

Force staff/blink. Even early game orb of venom can be good. Phase can be good too.

Sometimes it's just the way your team is built. You'll be kited to infinity if your team doesn't have slows or stun.

I guess my question is in general people throw around the term in position/out of position like it's understood (Purge does this a lot in his videos) and a lot of the times it's very obvious...but for the rest of the time, it's never really explained.

 

[Haly]

Note, "out of position" is also a nice way to say "you suck and I hate your guts".

 

[Artanisix]

Note2: Positioning is the biggest indicator of skill level to me. See: A person who doesn't know how to position Sniper and dies repeatedly and says this hero sucks versus a person who can actually position Sniper.

 

[Schweinehund]

I guess my question is in general people throw around the term in position/out of position like it's understood (Purge does this a lot in his videos) and a lot of the times it's very obvious...but for the rest of the time, it's never really explained.

I'm guessing he means something like a support being ahead of the rest of the pack, or not being able to guess where someone is going to run off to and cut them off.

Or just not using the fog of war to your advantage.

People also throw around the terms early game, mid game, late game but I've never seen it defined... I always assume early game is until a tower goes down... and mid is until 40 minutes or so.

 

[Kapura]

positioning is huge. An experienced player can judge the experience of another player from 30 seconds of laning based on where he stands and what he does.

 

[Neki]

Note2: Positioning is the biggest indicator of skill level to me. See: A person who doesn't know how to position Sniper and dies repeatedly and says this hero sucks versus a person who can actually position Sniper.

Well when your carry sniper loses to Hyuna's carry vengeful spirit, I guess we know what your skill level is at. Taking those self-help sheets from the dumpster ain't gonna help you get better milkman.

 

[SamVimes]

Note2: Positioning is the biggest indicator of skill level to me. See: A person who doesn't know how to position Sniper and dies repeatedly and says this hero sucks versus a person who can actually position Sniper who still dies every couple of minutes to smoke ganks.

fixed that for you

 

[Archie]

Sniper sucks even with the best positioning in the world.

 

[Gully State]

I'm guessing he means something like a support being ahead of the rest of the pack, or not being able to guess where someone is going to run off to and cut them off.

Or just not using the fog of war to your advantage.

People also throw around the terms early game, mid game, late game but I've never seen it defined... I always assume early game is until a tower goes down... and mid is until 40 minutes or so.

Yeah this is what I want to learn...how to position yourself after the initial stun as melee and being able to contribute and fight (recognizing that it's ok to stay) in a battle despite being at half health or less than half health. So often, my first thought is to just run up to them and start bashing when the correct play is to run to a side or behind where you think they'll back up to before attacking away (often times when I manage to do this, I guess their wrong path of retreat). Stuff like blocking properly when they're trying to get away isn't intuitive to me (The only time I've done this right was in one of my early games where my laning partner was chain stunned and about to go down at range. Since I was at full health as tide, I managed to body block the pursuers and give my laning partner an avenue for escape despite being OOM).

I know it's a complicated question but one that I would hope to get more insight on.

 

[Artanisix]

you all sux i'm taking my sniper and going to reddit where they wil APpreciate me

 

[Neki]

you all sux i'm taking my sniper and going to reddit where they wil APpreciate me

it's going to be hard to see and smell all the trash over there when you're constantly in the dumpster though.

 

[Haly]

Fight about to break out:
Frontlines: Tanky Melee, Semi-Carries (Sven, Slardar, Nightstalker)
Midlines: Stunners, Nukers, Melee Carries (Lion, Zeus, Naix)
Backlines: Ranged Carries, Initiators, Support (CM, Earthshaker, Drow)

Fight begins:
Frontlines: Tanky Melee, Semi-Carries, Initiators, Melee Carries
Midlines: Stunners, Ranged Carries, Nukers
Backlines: Support

Getting caught "out of position" usually entails being too far from your team to help in time, or too far from your team for them to bail you out of a gank.

 

[Gully State]

Fight about to break out:
Frontlines: Tanky Melee, Semi-Carries (Sven, Slardar, Nightstalker)
Midlines: Stunners, Nukers, Melee Carries (Lion, Zeus, Naix)
Backlines: Ranged Carries, Initiators, Support (CM, Earthshaker, Drow)

Fight begins:
Frontlines: Tanky Melee, Semi-Carries, Initiators, Melee Carries
Midlines: Stunners, Ranged Carries, Nukers
Backlines: Support

Getting caught "out of position" usually entails being too far from your team to help in time, or too far from your team for them to bail you out of a gank.

That was super helpful...Would've thought Initiators would be up front pre-fight but I suppose that makes sense as well...

What about general priority of targets? Focus Squishies and cc carries or try to use cc's to prevent the opposing team from getting their stuns off?

 

[cdyhybrid]

That was super helpful...Would've thought Initiators would be up front pre-fight but I suppose that makes sense as well...

What about general priority of targets? Focus Squishies and cc carries or try to use cc's to prevent the opposing team from getting their stuns off?

Depends on their heros. Obviously don't wanna focus a tank first but you wanna prevent them from using their most damaging abilities.

 

[Haly]

That was super helpful...Would've thought Initiators would be up front pre-fight but I suppose that makes sense as well...

Initiators pre-blink need to be around mid range. Initiators post-blink should remain on the outside, so their blink dagger isn't interrupted.

Order of targeting is based on two main factors:

How fast they can kill you?
How fast can you kill them?

For the first, the order is something like: Initiators > Melee Carries > Ranged Carries > Semi-Carries > Nukers > Support
For the second, the order is something like: Support > Nukers > Initiators > Ranged Carries > Melee Carries > Semi-Carries

Which one you go first should be a weighted average of the two. So example, Drow is usually very squishy, and she does lots of damage so you should go for her first. Tide, while an initiator, is very tanky, sometimes it's best to just let him ult, or assign someone to lock him down while you clean up their carries.

Other factors to take into account:
BKB
Stealth and Shadowblades
Blinks and Force Staffs
Omniknight
Dazzle
Chen
Mirana
Aegis

Not an exhaustive list but these are the most common factors that will force you to reorganize your kill order. BKBs/Stealth/Blink should be focused if and only if there is some way to lock them down (or reveal them in the case of Stealth). Omniknight, Dazzle, and Chen should be focused early before they can get off their life saving abilities, or force them to use it prematurely.

Aegis is kind of a mixed bag. Sometimes you go for them first then use the revive time to reestablish position. Sometimes you lock them down and go for everyone else, then clean him up as 5 twice over. Sometimes you kill them then bail out and wait for your ults to recharge.

 

[remz]

With a carry you want to farm. That means last hit as much as possible, while staying alive. Try to avoid getting harassed or ganked, and stay in lane to get as much exp and gold as possible. Maybe do a quick organized gank if it lines up that way. Most carries have a particular item that greatly increases their power or survivability. You want to get that item as soon as possible. For example, whatever Lothar's is called now for Drow (the item that lets you windwalk).

Is Lothar's really that good on Drow? I normally go straight to Mantra Style and I usually do super well in pubs.

 

[Haly]

Is Lothar's really that good on Drow? I normally go straight to Mantra Style and I usually do super well in pubs.

No, people usually get Lothar's as a crutch.

It takes 15-25 minutes to farm it and other basic stuff, and by that time gankability is no longer a problem. Carrying, however, is.

If there was a way to get Lothar's before 10 it would be a great item on her, but there isn't.

 

[Visualante2]

Probably been done before I guess..

 

[Tenck]

I only get Loathers when I have too much money and just want to mess around late game.

 

[Conceptor]

mega creep strats inc on Demon stream

edit: nvm bulba anti-fun buzzkill throne killer

 

[cdyhybrid]

Is Lothar's really that good on Drow? I normally go straight to Mantra Style and I usually do super well in pubs.

It's a godsend when you play with pubs like I do but there are better items for real games.

 

[Tenck]

Almost filled the 5 bars for Drow. Went 23-3-something right now. Feels good.

 

[remz]

Almost filled the 5 bars for Drow. Went 23-3-something right now. Feels good.

I have 5 bars as her, MWAHAHAHAHAHAH

(i'm not good at this game)

No, people usually get Lothar's as a crutch.

It takes 15-25 minutes to farm it and other basic stuff, and by that time gankability is no longer a problem. Carrying, however, is.

If there was a way to get Lothar's before 10 it would be a great item on her, but there isn't.

Yeah that's what I thought, the few times I got it it was like oh, I have invis..... now what. It takes way too long I find (I'm bad) and I'm 10x more effective with mantra

 

[LukeSmith]

Almost filled the 5 bars for Drow. Went 23-3-something right now. Feels good.

This statement - not to pick on you, Tenck - is why bars are a questionable (if not outright poor) UI metaphor to show contextual skill.

I say contextual skill, because I believe the language used in the description implies that it's in fact your rating on this hero against players within your skill level.

We had contextual skill in Halo: Reach's Arena system, where players would get a numeric value for the game they just played (a number derived objectively based on a performance formula, in a context-free vacuum), and then we had Divisions - the color represents the skill bucket you're playing in (I don't remember the breakdowns per color, but if I did, this is where I'd include it).

The results included things like "I got a 1690 in this game against these bros" - and a 1690 is an objectively good game, but maybe it was dumpster tier - Bronze or whatever it is.

To circle back to Tenck's statement, is that he looks at filling the bars as a progression agent, like he's leveling up. Which he may or may not be (where leveling up here is skill acquisition, which, again, is extremely difficult to quantify).

I am so interested to see where Valve is taking this stuff. I have high hopes.

 

[remz]

I wonder if you keep getting better at your character, the bars eventually move down as you move up overall skills brackets... would that be possible?

 

[Card Boy]

Whats the best way to run a jungle Lone Druid? I have forgotten everything i know about Wildsoul in HoN.

Quelling blade was a basic starting item to have on the bear from memory.

 

[Kapura]

This statement - not to pick on you, Tenck - is why bars are a questionable (if not outright poor) UI metaphor to show contextual skill.

I say contextual skill, because I believe the language used in the description implies that it's in fact your rating on this hero against players within your skill level.

We had contextual skill in Halo: Reach's Arena system, where players would get a numeric value for the game they just played (a number derived objectively based on a performance formula, in a context-free vacuum), and then we had Divisions - the color represents the skill bucket you're playing in (I don't remember the breakdowns per color, but if I did, this is where I'd include it).

The results included things like "I got a 1690 in this game against these bros" - and a 1690 is an objectively good game, but maybe it was dumpster tier - Bronze or whatever it is.

To circle back to Tenck's statement, is that he looks at filling the bars as a progression agent, like he's leveling up. Which he may or may not be (where leveling up here is skill acquisition, which, again, is extremely difficult to quantify).

I am so interested to see where Valve is taking this stuff. I have high hopes.

I'm really interested in whether or not the rating systems are based on specific objective metrics (percentage of damage done, assists, etc) or whether they are determined on a hero-to-hero basis. For instance, landing a stun on Skeleton King is trivial, click to win bullshit and you're more concerned with doing damage and hero kills, but landing a full shackle on Windrunner is much more indicative of skill of the player and makes it easier to recognise a good one from a bad one. You would then need to assess them differently to determine if somebody is better or worse than the average player.

 

[JustinBB7]

Just tried Lone Druid out and just bought all the suggested items, was really easy to jungle and get kills. Was pretty fun too. Pudge's rot really murdered me though, but besides that I had all the other enemies number.

Kinda weird seeing a stat screen with like 2 items on you, though kinda funny.

 

[Schweinehund]

Whats the best way to run a jungle Lone Druid? I have forgotten everything i know about Wildsoul in HoN.

Quelling blade was a basic starting item to have on the bear from memory.

Lone druid is better in solo lanes, but here's some good discussions on him;

http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/?count=25&after=t3_rj5p8
http://www.reddit.com/r/DotA2/comments/muru6/hero_discussion_of_the_day_syllabear_november_30/

Short answer: Shield/Axe on bear, Pot.

Stack pull camp, pull, try to do easy/medium camps in the meanwhile.

 

[LukeSmith]

I'm really interested in whether or not the rating systems are based on specific objective metrics (percentage of damage done, assists, etc) or whether they are determined on a hero-to-hero basis. For instance, landing a stun on Skeleton King is trivial, click to win bullshit and you're more concerned with doing damage and hero kills, but landing a full shackle on Windrunner is much more indicative of skill of the player and makes it easier to recognise a good one from a bad one. You would then need to assess them differently to determine if somebody is better or worse than the average player.

The former is clearly flawed and the later is incredibly difficult, especially when tons of heroes (like a Vengeful Spirit) can fit multiple roles.

Based on what I've seen so far in the way the bars "move" - it's got a lot to do with CS, Kills, Deaths and Assists.

Construct an objective metric for successful ward placement. I think it'd be a pretty hard thing to measure - especially when your jungle can be properly warded and a bad jungler can still find a way to feed. Was my ward's efficacy lower because Syllabear sans Bear tried to right click Bloodseeker?

In general, quantifying skill is fascinating. But doing it for this game? If nailed, will be amazing. Some real sabermetrics shit.