why xcalibur and not a real carry? t_t
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- Thread starter Teknopathetic
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why xcalibur and not a real carry? t_t
Dreams-Visions
Member
Dendi's pool isn't particularly small. Pudge, SF, Puck, TA, Tinker, Storm, QoP, DK, Skywrath, and Invoker are his best. You don't need a pool bigger than that out of solo mid. Problem is, he was often given heroes he's only "servicable" with (Razor, DP, Brewmaster). When Puppey gave Dendi a snowball hero, Dendi generally snowballs (save for one poor QoP game, iirc).
Xboct's tunnel vision AND lack of map awareness HAVE lost Na'Vi matches because they both add deaths that delay items, which delay movements, stall pushes or force the concession of objectives...and this has been a point of discussion since well before TI. It's indisputable to me...as is the reality that Black^ is a better carry player. If you like Na'Vi and want to see them improve, the fastest way to do that is to upgrade the roster. It's pretty easy to start at the Carry position. Maybe you're satisfied with Xboct and that's cool if you are. The rest of us feel he is a glaring weakness on the roster and I don't think they win another TI with him at the 1 position. I think Black^ or a similar talent make Na'Vi much better, instantly. If you feel otherwise, we can agree to disagree.
We agree that Puppey's drafting has been questionable at times. Not necessarily on paper, but in terms of drafting heroes that are strong for the players on your team. Drafting ET (a hero that really can't make plays very easily) for Funn1k offlane is in my book a drafting mistake. Drafting DP or OD for Dendi feels like a mistake because they don't really make plays early. They AFK farm. Again, that is a drafting mistake...and as far as I know, Puppey calls the shots. Hence my point that Na'Vi needs someone in there raising objections to Puppey's ideas when appropriate.
Also, Puppey may have the smallest hero pool on the entire team. When he's not playing Enchantress, Chen or Enigma, he worries the fuck out of me. He seems to only be somewhere between "average" and "slightly above average" with most other 5 heroes. I'd suggest replacing Puppey, but it's his team; he ain't goin anywhere. So I'll simply suggest that Puppey needs to spend some time working on his own hero pool.
It may just be my poor memory, but I don't recall Mason with a standout performance on any carry but Weaver...his signature hero.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
It's mason. Only mason.
I couldnt think of another player that would realistically leave his team lol. Maybe one of the Fnatic guys
Dreams-Visions
Member
Where's your list of what teams need to do? You seem to be adept at objecting to other people's opinions but have yet to produce a list of your own for Western team improvements for us to shit on.
Proceed with your list, Governor. Don't worry; I'll wait.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
We've gone from just saying getting rid Xboct to talking of other issues in the Na'Vi game.
I do think Black is better. But I'm of the mindset that the carry is almost the least important player in a match. The early game is so important now that everyone else have to pull their weight. Xboct has of course cost them games. But I honestly think there's so many things wrong with Na'Vi that simply replacing him won't make that much of a difference.
Kky and Puppey are too passive for my taste.
Dendi's competitive hero pool isn't big enough - in approach and style rather than actual numbers.
I do Funn1k is fine. Don't understand why he doesn't get to play Clinkz though.
I just think the Chinese teams have schooled everyone in showing how important team play is in the early game. Making one change won't be enough to sort things out.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
I'm not him, but I think with EG the one thing I would speculate is that they need to realize how to adapt a draft when the other team are targeting their greed. The chinese teams were worried about Zai coming into TI, and his jungle was targeted, a lot. Go back to basics on occasion, use those supports to make sure Arteezy wins his lane and Mason isn't pressured. Early game is so so important, don't throw it away trying to farm all the time.
Edit: As an example look at the game I think in the group stage where C9 beat VG. They ganked the fuck outta DP so Sing would have the advantage.
Edit 2: Heh, we both placed importance on early game.
Dreams-Visions
Member
If all you saw was "get rid of Xboct", you didn't read the entire paragraph. This entire secondary conversation has been based on something already covered in this sentence:
"Also, Na'Vi needs a vocal counterbalance to Puppey's crazy-ass ideas. Na'Vi loses more games than they should at the draft. I also wouldn't mind seeing Funn1k Clinkz return a bit more often."
Addressing the drafting addresses just about every issue you've brought up.
I agree that will help them too. I expect that to come with time and maturity. You guys can't sell me on Mason, though. He's a baller on Weaver, but he rarely impresses on anyone else. BUT...he is young, so it's certainly fair to suggest he will grow into better performance with other carries. Immediately, my gut tells me he's not ready to win TI. Also, his personality and style are hella off-putting. I'd much rather see FEAR come back than that douchebag on the roster.
anyone agree with me that last years change to smoke by making it non detectable ruined the meta? I never liked the change and I think it has to be reverted. Its only counter early game is playing survivable heroes with immaculate positioning and support tps. I'd rather have a timer on sentries than keep smokes as they are right now, there should be more risk to it.
My thoughts on TI4:
I liked the format when it was presented back in june, but after watching TI4 I think valve made a huge mistake with it. The phases of the tournament felt disconnected and the total lack of buildup due to getting a finalist first day of the main event took all the hype out of it.
Second to the wb thing the bubble format thing was the most retarded. Outside of the first elimination game they almost felt pointless, I would have much preferred an extended main event than than the mess we were given.
Although bo1 round robin might be more fair, two groups with bo2 made for more excitement. It wasn't horrible but another thing that just made things a bit worse than before.
Production was worse this year. Especially the panels were atrocious, in particular giving mad and sheever so much screen time. I don't hate them but they just don't work on tv. Sheever kept saying "actually" every 10 seconds while the heavily accented, nervous, broken high speed english from mad almost induced a mental breakdown in me. It was absolutely insufferable. Last year the analysis/panel parts where some of my favorite segments. This year I muted to suppress the rage building up.
Anyway, too much analyst rotation, stream glitching, going mute/die issues every day.
What happened with draskyl? He is one of the few analysts I can stand. Well spoken, gets to the point and usually provides good analysis.
My personal take on the whole thing is that the event was ruined by trying to accommodate for the new venue. Schedule was tighter which led to new format and so on. The most exciting part of TI4 was the group stage which practically was an online tournament, it shouldn't be like that.
gratz to nwebee, they deserved it. people shouldn't blame/doubt them for the mess valve created.
My thoughts on TI4:
I liked the format when it was presented back in june, but after watching TI4 I think valve made a huge mistake with it. The phases of the tournament felt disconnected and the total lack of buildup due to getting a finalist first day of the main event took all the hype out of it.
Second to the wb thing the bubble format thing was the most retarded. Outside of the first elimination game they almost felt pointless, I would have much preferred an extended main event than than the mess we were given.
Although bo1 round robin might be more fair, two groups with bo2 made for more excitement. It wasn't horrible but another thing that just made things a bit worse than before.
Production was worse this year. Especially the panels were atrocious, in particular giving mad and sheever so much screen time. I don't hate them but they just don't work on tv. Sheever kept saying "actually" every 10 seconds while the heavily accented, nervous, broken high speed english from mad almost induced a mental breakdown in me. It was absolutely insufferable. Last year the analysis/panel parts where some of my favorite segments. This year I muted to suppress the rage building up.
Anyway, too much analyst rotation, stream glitching, going mute/die issues every day.
What happened with draskyl? He is one of the few analysts I can stand. Well spoken, gets to the point and usually provides good analysis.
My personal take on the whole thing is that the event was ruined by trying to accommodate for the new venue. Schedule was tighter which led to new format and so on. The most exciting part of TI4 was the group stage which practically was an online tournament, it shouldn't be like that.
gratz to nwebee, they deserved it. people shouldn't blame/doubt them for the mess valve created.
rip lycan, my new main champion is ursa
icefrog just plz make howl not global and don't butcher my hero
also @all the people calling the grand final boring and shit you're only saying that cuz it's 2 chinese teams that you don't give a shit about, if EG/c9 played out the same series with the same heroes and plays everyone would lose their shit--the games were fairly fast and exciting and newbee played close to perfect dota.
smoke is what kinda drives the entire early game, otherwise we'd go back to a laning stage of just 10 minutes of straight farming and little to no roaming
ok, I replaced Xcal with Black. Now this is a team. And it's kind of realistic
we did yo, i think dota-gaf and mumblegaf exchanged numbers separately, and then we just come here to try and meet or shoutout to anyone who might not have gotten the spreadsheet or something
I think it's harsh to put so much blame on xboct when he kept getting put on heroes that don't suit him. I lost track of how many times he was playing Razor or offlane Void. Newbee showed that you can still grab heroes like Weaver or Lifestealer and win, but Puppey just went along with the tournament trends instead of making picks that suited them as players. The problems stemmed from the draft and made them all look bad in my opinion.
Perfect dota doesn't mean it's exciting. The finals were as exciting as seeing germany play brazil this world cup. There needs to be an extended back and fourth struggle, or at least a decent enough chance of come back for a game to be exciting. Outside of the first five minutes of each game none of them provided any of that.
it's not like we didn't have any roaming in dota prior to the change(last autumn if I recall).
I dunno man I quite enjoyed 7-1gate.
Before the smoke buff and the pull changes, all supports did was sit in the safe tri and constantly pull for some nice xp. There was no reason to roam and risk failed ganks when you could cruise to level 6 on the back of some medium camps in a safe lane.
Heavy's Sandvich
Member
Wrote a bloody long thing the. My internet died. I'll keep it sweet.
I think xp/gold changes really affected navi/alliance.
Fnatic - trixi/era/xcalibur are not good enough. Fly wants to play carry. No tail is in the wrong position. Hanni is ok not spectacular. I think no tail could mid or off, support is wasted. Reliance on io to win = not good enough
Navi - kky puppey too passive, dendis int tempo controllers aren't effective, too reliant on snowball when navi no longer as aggressive at all. Xboct aggression with passive supports means there's a gulf. Funn1k is fine. Kky needs to be more greedy.
Eg - are fine. Rtz needs to keep his cool, makes stubborn decisions when game isn't going the way he wants. Reliance on enigma can mean other lanes become weaker before he comes online, hence pressure on rtz and mason not dominating as he could. They're fine though.
Alliance - Loda not good enough, bulldog gimping team. Reliance on global stat. Akke egm are fine. Maybe lane switch, s4 has fundamentals to play off. Admiral in mid, more chance to babysit gank for him.
Cloud 9 - I think they're fine. EE can lose head when behind.
Edit: forgive autocorrection.
I think xp/gold changes really affected navi/alliance.
Fnatic - trixi/era/xcalibur are not good enough. Fly wants to play carry. No tail is in the wrong position. Hanni is ok not spectacular. I think no tail could mid or off, support is wasted. Reliance on io to win = not good enough
Navi - kky puppey too passive, dendis int tempo controllers aren't effective, too reliant on snowball when navi no longer as aggressive at all. Xboct aggression with passive supports means there's a gulf. Funn1k is fine. Kky needs to be more greedy.
Eg - are fine. Rtz needs to keep his cool, makes stubborn decisions when game isn't going the way he wants. Reliance on enigma can mean other lanes become weaker before he comes online, hence pressure on rtz and mason not dominating as he could. They're fine though.
Alliance - Loda not good enough, bulldog gimping team. Reliance on global stat. Akke egm are fine. Maybe lane switch, s4 has fundamentals to play off. Admiral in mid, more chance to babysit gank for him.
Cloud 9 - I think they're fine. EE can lose head when behind.
Edit: forgive autocorrection.
but it wasn't exciting was it? After 25 minutes of play we knew the outcome. Knowing the outcome is the worst possible situation in any kind of competition.
there's been times like that but there's also been roam heavy metas throughout the years. Not saying everyone roams now, I just think it's too effective considering the low risk.
Are you talking about Ayeeee?
Aysee was his name yeah, I forgot.
Anyone else play in South Korea? Not the same as yurop.
Shorty11857
Member
Honestly even though I'm a big fan of Fnatic the only standout player I think they have is H4nn1, N0tail has been fairly awful lately, Fly has been a bit of a non-factor, Trixi is either great or terrible and lately mostly terrible, Era is a sold player but made a few mistakes at TI (maybe lack of practice), Excalibur after his explosive start pretty much did nothing for them come ESL
I honestly have no idea what they can do with the roster because none of them have really been performing lately, role swaps might be what they need though
Aysee was his name yeah, I forgot.
Anyone else play in South Korea? Not the same as yurop.
I get the feeling Valve finally listened to all the negative reactions he gets. He was casting group stage stuff though. I think next year's final will be Tobi + Synd.
too bad, I really miss Ayesee.
get Lumi the fuck away from the main event please, he's just an awful caster that was grandfathered into the scene.
Ayesee/Tobi/LD + Synd/Fckingmad/Merlini, pair them up one from each side
Even Lumi was surprised he got the final, he said he deserves it less than others and that he needs to improve his casting.
fnatics problem is team composition. things got awkward when nova left and they brought in a carry player in his stead. Fly has on numerous occasions said he'd like to play carry and doesn't enjoy being support, notail has said similar things. All of them are greedy players by nature.
I personally think era is the most talented of the bunch, I also think notail although brilliant at wisp and distruptor is wasted not playing mid.
I'd be excited to see a refreshed fnatic with Fly as #1 carry, notail as mid, hanni as fourth position farmed support and two new players for offlane/support. Would be sad to see era leave but he just doesn't fit the team.
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
I don't like Lumi at all. What the hell does he even add? It certainly ain't knowledge. I want Merlini, Synd, and other ex-pros as analysis guys. I was a huge hater of Ayesee but he's gotten better, now I don't like Tobi.
I'd love to see KKY join Fnatic so Fly can play carry and N0tail play support, that's a great team. They'd just need to get rid of Trixi an get an actual decent offlaner.
I'd love to see KKY join Fnatic so Fly can play carry and N0tail play support, that's a great team. They'd just need to get rid of Trixi an get an actual decent offlaner.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Ah right he was? Had no idea about that, haven't been around for months. Wouldn't he have been good for the newbie stream though?
Also I missed the playoffs, game recommendations?
Gentle Rodriguez
Member
I think he'd fit in well there, but he'd have to want to do it. I was surprised that Purge and the others didn't get tired of explaining every basic mechanic every single game over and over again, even though their casts were very entertaining.
shira
Member
Stuff I made up:
Black has an offer from a euro based team that he is likely to take
Bulldog hasn't been seen with Alliance since they lost
Xcalibur has 2 main offers. His hero pool is fine. He plays a very good TA, ember, morphling
EG, C9, navi, liquid are all reforming.
The panel for TI5 should be the entire GD Studio doing the same shit they did when they did the HUB. Would be much better than the shit we got this year
Even James himself implied he thinks the panel is a shit idea
Also
We missed out
Icex3: These were the worst finals/Chinese teams wouldnt scrim with us
Even James himself implied he thinks the panel is a shit idea
Also
We missed out
Icex3: These were the worst finals/Chinese teams wouldnt scrim with us
shira
Member
They tried to balance it out with Sgeever grill, but it was just time filler
MerleeZy and lumi is nightmare fuel
I laughed, your avatar may have helped.
I don't know, I liked the panel from last year but not this year.
More jokes, more experts, and just more fun last year. This year was more of a traditional and boring, "what do u think about the game skip?" "well newbee played with a lot of heart and they were hungry for the win and they had the better team," "ok on to game 3 then guys."
More jokes, more experts, and just more fun last year. This year was more of a traditional and boring, "what do u think about the game skip?" "well newbee played with a lot of heart and they were hungry for the win and they had the better team," "ok on to game 3 then guys."