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[blu]

Feel free to come to my Advanced Topics in Compiler Construction lecture - starting, in fact, tomorrow.

Put it online! ;p

 

[Corto]

Just speaking as someone who follows this business as an enthusiast, what's interesting to me is that I see this as something that'd entice japanese developers. Lock up your games in a walled garden, don't let people tinker with them, we get what we get. Interesting in that it's MS that's leading the charge. I see Activision to be the publisher most likely to go all-in with MS on this.

Ubi and EA have their own storefronts; what on earth why they abandon their own stores? I guess they don't have to, and they can sell UWP games on Origin and uPlay, but that hurts Microsoft's intended appeal as the Windows Store as the one stop shop. So if they're not using the Windows Store, then why go through the changes and (assuming here) extra effort to build games as a UWP app?

Steam crushes all anyway. In the long run, we may have the big three third parties and MS first party games using UWP. Japanese developers are probably seeing a lot of success on Steam, and while their attitudes toward open platforms may make UWP attractive, why switch revenue streams so soon after embracing Steam?

It's going to be fascinating and scary to see this shake out. Microsoft isn't afraid of bailing on a bad idea, so even if this sticks, most of us will probably be content to play Halo 7 through the Microsoft Store on our PCs and keep our massive libraries of games made the traditional way on Steam.

Well, considering the state that some Japanese developed games were released in the last months/years that is a scary thought. And I could imagine that all major publishers would accept to use W10 store if Microsoft shares a piece of the revenue with them and throws some marketing or covered server costs to sweeten the deal.

 

[rav]

Just speaking as someone who follows this business as an enthusiast, what's interesting to me is that I see this as something that'd entice japanese developers. Lock up your games in a walled garden, don't let people tinker with them, we get what we get. Interesting in that it's MS that's leading the charge. I see Activision to be the publisher most likely to go all-in with MS on this.

What if MS decides as a publisher of this walled garden they don't want Anime Dating Sim games (Or any other Japanese games, just because.)

This is not a future I want. Even with side loading seemingly being available, locking out windows features unless they go through a walled garden, where MS could play favorites to their own first party games is not cool.

 

[kagamin]

What if MS decides as a publisher of this walled garden they don't want Anime Dating Sim games (Or any other Japanese games, just because.)

This is not a future I want. Even with side loading seemingly being available, locking out windows features unless they go through a walled garden, where MS could play favorites to their own first party games is not cool.

The Eroge community is gonna be in an uproar if they can't play their games.

 

[Dinky Dino]

That's true. But my claim is that if the "general users" or "normal users" or however we're calling them in this thread is leaving the PC platform, this rise could be reversed. Maybe I'm wrong, but I find this trend quite alarming.

Why? What does it matter? These users were never going to play enthusiast games on it. Just use it for browsing and checking mail. A tablet can do the same thing and is more compact. People who need to do work on a pc and find it more open will get one. I can't see why it's an issue that tablets are much more convenient. With 10 being free, if these general users were using their pc for basic stuff, they wouldn't have to upgrade for years.

 

[rav]

The Eroge community is gonna be in an uproar if they can't play their games.

I'm more worried that MS has the ability to arbitrarily choose what is on their shop and what can and can't use these new features on hardware.

Walled gardens were what pushed me away entirely from Apple's macbooks. I don't mind it so much on a phone, as long as it does what it's supposed to as a phone. A multi-purpose PC on the otherhand I don't agree with anyone having any say over what runs on my PC, or applications I write having to get approved for content.

The reason this doesn't bother me on Steam/gog/uplay/origin: they don't have OS level control, and unlike Microsoft cannot prevent it entirely.

 

[rav]

Why? What does it matter? These users were never going to play enthusiast games on it. Just use it for browsing and checking mail. A tablet can do the same thing and is more compact. People who need to do work on a pc and find it more open will get one. I can't see why it's an issue that tablets are much more convenient. With 10 being free, if these general users were using their pc for basic stuff, they wouldn't have to upgrade for years.

What's to prevent MS from going further down this slippery slope? This is way beyond games in my opinion.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I'm more worried that MS has the ability to arbitrarily choose what is on their shop and what can and can't use these new features on hardware.

Walled gardens were what pushed me away entirely from Apple's macbooks. I don't mind it so much on a phone, as long as it does what it's supposed to as a phone. A multi-purpose PC on the otherhand I don't agree with anyone having any say over what runs on my PC, or applications I write having to get approved for content.

The reason this doesn't bother me on Steam/gog/uplay/origin: they don't have OS level control, and unlike Microsoft cannot prevent it entirely.

Agreed. One of the reasons I also switched from iPhone to Android late last year, was because I was tired of 6+ years of the incremental walled garden, and I have a little more freedom on the Android platform.

What's to prevent MS from going further down this slippery slope? This is way beyond games in my opinion.

Us speaking with our wallets, being vocal, and not staying shut like a lot of the apologists in these posts want us to. Things that make you go hmmm.

 

[LCGeek]

Why do you equate the PC platform with Microsoft? If anything, we should all get off of Windows and lobby developers to start using Vulkan and SteamOS or any Linux distro.

Gaming is and never will be Microsoft's primary focus. UWA was not a decision to help gamers. The Windows Store was not a decision to help gamers. Microsoft wants to control Windows like Apple controls iOS.

This is not beneficial to the consumer.

I really want linux to be the next stage but none of the big vendors or software companies will support it properly or leverage some of its good benefits. Between anti bufferbloat tech, a much better scheduler, way less kernel bloat, and a real time os which is better for gaming as devs could count on less stutter with better driver support in time. Won't happen cause too many vested interest want to keep that easy windows money. Windows blows right now after a certain point, yet despite all I mentioned you're not switching people over without a real way to give compatibility or fixing linux driver/update issues. Doesn't have to be this way but I'm surprised besides redhat very few others get it.

Consumers are complacent to accept this shit too despite knowledge out for the better part of this decade.

 

[theangrypirate]

As most gaming enthusiasts consider themselves pretty good with computers, why hasn't linux gaming taken off. What is so special about Direct X? Is opengl that far behind? Seriously, it cracks me up that all of these pc gamers are so concerned with performance but they are forced to use a windows PC. I would love to get back into PC gaming but I don't want to use windows for any reason.

 

[Akronis]

I really want linux to be the next stage but none of the big vendors or software companies will support it properly or leverage some of its good benefits. Between anti bufferbloat tech, a much better scheduler, way less kernel bloat, and a real time os which is better for gaming as devs could count on less stutter with better driver support in time. Won't happen cause too many vested interest want to keep that easy windows money. Windows blows right now after a certain point, yet despite all I mentioned you're not switching people over without a real way to give compatibility or fixing linux driver/update issues. Doesn't have to be this way but I'm surprised besides redhat very few others get it.

Consumers are complacent to accept this shit too despite knowledge out for the better part of this decade.

Hopefully this changes soon, but you're right. Companies are quite comfortable developing for Windows and DX.

As most gaming enthusiasts consider themselves pretty good with computers, why hasn't linux gaming taken off. What is so special about Direct X? Is opengl that far behind? Seriously, it cracks me up that all of these pc gamers are so concerned with performance but they are forced to use a windows PC. I would love to get back into PC gaming but I don't want to use windows for any reason.

Companies don't see a reason to, so they don't care. They don't want to adjust their workflow or fire/hire developers who know OpenGL or Vulkan.

 

[Unai]

The benefit would be reduced development time in the long run, at the cost of the time required for the initial transtion.
That's the theory, wether it will actually work out that way is anyone's guess.


I dont know. I am not a modder/hacker yet i was able to prove his statement in that thread as wrong in about a day. So to me it doesn't look like he has put much effort into trying before posting about the "impossible".

I would change the OS of my game machine in a heartbeat if I could play most of my games on it. But that's not reality right now.

 

[Lork]

Just speaking as someone who follows this business as an enthusiast, what's interesting to me is that I see this as something that'd entice japanese developers. Lock up your games in a walled garden, don't let people tinker with them, we get what we get. Interesting in that it's MS that's leading the charge. I see Activision to be the publisher most likely to go all-in with MS on this.

What makes you say that Japanese developers have a problem with people being able to modify game files? To me it seems like they're indifferent to/unaware of western modding culture at worst, not disdainful of it. Do you have any special insight into the matter?

 

[theangrypirate]

Companies don't see a reason to, so they don't care. They don't want to adjust their workflow or fire/hire developers who know OpenGL or Vulkan.

Hopefully the backlash to this unified windows platform will force companies to seek alternatives.

 

[prudislav]

The Eroge community is gonna be in an uproar if they can't play their games.

well they just got Denuvo ;-)

 

[Crayon]

Hopefully the backlash to this unified windows platform will force companies to seek alternatives.

If Ms goes too far down this path, and starts hobbling stores like steam, users will start to switch and the snowballing will pick up.

 

[LordRaptor]

why hasn't linux gaming taken off. What is so special about Direct X? Is opengl that far behind?

Basically;
Small user base -> developers don't support it -> few titles available -> small user base

rinse and repeat.

Just the marginal efforts of Steam in adding OSX and Linux as supported platforms for the storefront has resulted in orders of magnitude more support than either platform has historically had

 

[mcrommert]

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but was watching the video of Spencer's talk at the Xbox showcase and he refers to "sli, vsync, mods, injection, overlays" and some other things and then says..."Our intent is to embrace the breadth of what makes pc gaming great" referring to those things specifically

I understand scepticism regarding Microsoft and i support that. But it looks like they know what they have to do.

https://youtu.be/pTEVKp4hVuI?t=15m43s

 

[OmarTheHippo]

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but was watching the video of Spencer's talk at the Xbox showcase and he refers to "sli, vsync, mods, injection, overlays" and some other things and then says..."Our intent is to embrace the breadth of what makes pc gaming great" referring to those things specifically

I understand scepticism regarding Microsoft and i support that. But it looks like they know what they have to do.

https://youtu.be/pTEVKp4hVuI?t=15m43s

I don't think that alleviates very many fears. Microsoft promises, especially when phrased as "intents", are treated dubiously

The problem is they released a platform without those things. They knew they were important, but made them low priority "future consideration" items. Anyone distrustful of Microsoft sees that as standard reverse feature creep: take away a feature, promise it's coming back, drop feature completely after enough time has passed from initial uproar. Complacency and time kills features

Which is really the point of these devs speaking up: make sure people realize what's missing, the consequences of inaction, and encourage vocal support to counter publisher perceived apathy

Detractors still care about PC gaming, they just give Microsoft benefit of doubt and accept the intents/promises provided =/

 

[xplicitone]

if they don't, they should be ashamed.

Whoa, new avy...

I knew who he was especially for DSFix, but maybe only half a year or so ago I found out he's a gaffer from a Monitor thread haha.

 

[xplicitone]

Feel free to come to my Advanced Topics in Compiler Construction lecture - starting, in fact, tomorrow.

Where is this and can this be seen online?!

 

[Nzyme32]

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but was watching the video of Spencer's talk at the Xbox showcase and he refers to "sli, vsync, mods, injection, overlays" and some other things and then says..."Our intent is to embrace the breadth of what makes pc gaming great" referring to those things specifically

I understand scepticism regarding Microsoft and i support that. But it looks like they know what they have to do.

https://youtu.be/pTEVKp4hVuI?t=15m43s

I'll believe it when they take a vendor agnostic / store agnostic approach for each akin to what PC gaming currently offers. I suppose ultimately that is the crux of the problem - not having such solutions available or technical documents that support their responses that they will "embrace the breadth of what makes PC gaming great". Build will be interesting for sure.

 

[Crayon]

There's that word again. "Embrace".

 

[Barack Lesnar]

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but was watching the video of Spencer's talk at the Xbox showcase and he refers to "sli, vsync, mods, injection, overlays" and some other things and then says..."Our intent is to embrace the breadth of what makes pc gaming great" referring to those things specifically

I understand scepticism regarding Microsoft and i support that. But it looks like they know what they have to do.

https://youtu.be/pTEVKp4hVuI?t=15m43s

I want to give them the benefit of the doubt. MS gaming side has too much ill will towards them with the X1 to not try to fix these things.

Anyway, ideally I want universal apps to become the standard. Whether it's under MS umbrella or Valve or whoever it doesn't really matter to me. I prefer it to be MS b/c well Windows is the OS. If Steam OS took off and became the standard then under them but that didn't happen. If the Win10 store can get some third party games i'd go W10 store exclusive. As it is now, there's barely anything so we'll see. Sucks about Fable Legends...not that i care for the game but it would've been another title to add to the W10 library. Really hope this sh!t takes off and MS doesn't abandon it. My gut feeling is they wont b/c all apps are UWA not just games so it's not ONLY a gaming thing. It's......wait for it.....universal!

 

[Barack Lesnar]

Quick question (doubt it's worth a new thread): Anyone have an idea what it takes to make a game a UWA so it can be put up on the Win10 store? Is the coding a big process or is it relatively simple? For example, would it be easy for Activision, Ubi, Warner etc to create both Steam and Win10 versions or is there a lot of extra coding needed to make it a UWA for win10? Major third party games on the store would be awesome. It's not gonna do much if it's just the MS exclusives

 

[LordRaptor]

Quick question (doubt it's worth a new thread): Anyone have an idea what it takes to make a game a UWA so it can be put up on the Win10 store? Is the coding a big process or is it relatively simple? For example, would it be easy for Activision, Ubi, Warner etc to create both Steam and Win10 versions or is there a lot of extra coding needed to make it a UWA for win10? Major third party games on the store would be awesome. It's not gonna do much if it's just the MS exclusives

I don't believe it would necessarily be the difficulty or cost of creating a second alternative version of a game just for the Win10 Store in the first place, it would be the difficulty and cost of actively maintaining 2 separate versions of a game.
Any Win10 UWA would require MS cert for any patching where a traditional store would not, so any studio would internally need *at least* 4 seperate code branches for win32 WIP, win32 RC, uwa WIP and uwa RC.

I mean, for a 'fire and forget' title like a console port where you do one release and one bugfix patch, mmmmmmaybe it would be worth the additional complexity to set that up, but for a title that is going to have ongoing support with DLC it would be a nightmare having to maintain multiple codebases for one platform.

 

[m_dorian]

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but was watching the video of Spencer's talk at the Xbox showcase and he refers to "sli, vsync, mods, injection, overlays" and some other things and then says..."Our intent is to embrace the breadth of what makes pc gaming great" referring to those things specifically

I understand scepticism regarding Microsoft and i support that. But it looks like they know what they have to do.

https://youtu.be/pTEVKp4hVuI?t=15m43s

Tell Spencer it's freedom that makes pc gaming great but i sincerely doubt he understands or cares.

 

[TBiddy]

I don't believe it would necessarily be the difficulty or cost of creating a second alternative version of a game just for the Win10 Store in the first place, it would be the difficulty and cost of actively maintaining 2 separate versions of a game.

How much code difference would there be between a modern DX12-title (win32) and a modern DX12-title (UWA)?

I assume the newest Visual Studio can compile to either format without many changes.

 

[FrozenCell]

There's that word again. "Embrace".

straight outta https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend_and_extinguish

 

[thehillissilent]

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but was watching the video of Spencer's talk at the Xbox showcase and he refers to "sli, vsync, mods, injection, overlays" and some other things and then says..."Our intent is to embrace the breadth of what makes pc gaming great" referring to those things specifically

I understand scepticism regarding Microsoft and i support that. But it looks like they know what they have to do.

https://youtu.be/pTEVKp4hVuI?t=15m43s

We will see what comes out of the Build conference. That is where the rubber meets the road.

 

[Akronis]

Tell Spencer it's freedom that makes pc gaming great but i sincerely doubt he understands or cares.

Yup, pretty much this. Why the fuck would I want to rely on Microsoft to fix fundamental issues with a platform that they don't give two shits about?

It's all under their control anyways, so they could easily backpedal and leave it completely broken or worse, restrict it even further.

 

[jaaz]

Where are the graphic card makers in all of this? Have they commented?

After all, it will be devastating to their business if enthusiast graphic cards are rendered moot in PC games because you can't change graphic settings to "Ultra" and take advantage of the hardware. That goes for other enthusiast PC part makers too, like Corsair, Asus, etc.

 

[vg260]

How does this format affect controllers? Do UWAs only support X-input devices? If so, can you not use something like x360ce?

 

[thechristoph]

What makes you say that Japanese developers have a problem with people being able to modify game files? To me it seems like they're indifferent to/unaware of western modding culture at worst, not disdainful of it. Do you have any special insight into the matter?

No special insight, just a different interpretation of the observations you have made. The general lack of understanding of the internet that comes out of Japanese devs and pubs may be seen of indifference or unawareness as you put it, but to me it seems like fear and resistance.