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[Durante]

For what it's worth, I do think that the statement "unsigned code can not interact with UWAs" is probably wrong if you take it as an absolute and without context. That's also why my article, which may I remind you this thread is about, says no such thing.
Why? Because UWA, at least at this point in time, is sure to have security holes, especially when opposed by the administrator of a system.

However, the fundamental difference is that dll injection working on Win32 is business as usual, and more than that it's not something that will ever change.

I don't doubt that with implementation effort you can currently get dll injection to work with UWA, but from the point of view of the apparent security design goals of UWP that's a bug, not a feature.

Basing mods or any other lasting work (basically, anything other than cheats which will still happily hack into any hole they find) on something which could be "fixed" at the OS level at any point is not a viable long-term strategy. And that's the fundamental issue.

And you post highlights the problem. People prefer bitching about things not working rather than trying to make it work, or atleast check.

Why in gods name should modders have to invest effort into hacking together something working (well, maybe, until the next update) on a paradigm that stands against everything they believe in in computing platforms?

 

[Akronis]

I don't exactly understand what you said about enterprise users. PC environment being solely in the realms of the enterprise sector is bad, because it will mean exactly what I said - Less opportunities for game makers on the platform, as it's only used in enterprise and work context.

I believe the PC platform need to improve because it's in decline, if you disagree with that I'm open to new data I might not have.

Why do you equate the PC platform with Microsoft? If anything, we should all get off of Windows and lobby developers to start using Vulkan and SteamOS or any Linux distro.

Gaming is and never will be Microsoft's primary focus. UWA was not a decision to help gamers. The Windows Store was not a decision to help gamers. Microsoft wants to control Windows like Apple controls iOS.

This is not beneficial to the consumer.

 

[PhilGPT]

I believe the PC platform need to improve because it's in decline, if you disagree with that I'm open to new data I might not have.

Ohh no... better go write a "PC is dying" article.
We haven't had one of those in a while jk

Although I have no readily available data to prove this wrong, I will just say that more and more console exclusive's are coming to PC.
Why would publishers do that if PC's were in decline?

 

[DeepEnigma]

So much technical knowledge in one post. It's too much for me.

Oops?

That better?

Sounds to me like it is still a pain in the ass, that will not last when patched, that one should not have to do in the first place.

Or is that a wrong assessment as a user level train of thought at the moment?

 

[mcrommert]

For what it's worth, I do think that the statement "unsigned code can not interact with UWAs" is probably wrong if you take it as an absolute and without context. That's also why my article, which may I remind you this thread is about, says no such thing.
Why? Because UWA, at least at this point in time, is sure to have security holes, especially when opposed by the administrator of a system.

However, the fundamental difference is that dll injection working on Win32 is business as usual, and more than that it's not something that will ever change.

I don't doubt that with implementation effort you can currently get dll injection to work with UWA, but from the point of view of the apparent security design goals of UWP that's a bug, not a feature.

Basing mods or any other lasting work (basically, anything other than cheats which will still happily hack into any hole they find) on something which could be "fixed" at the OS level at any point is not a viable long-term strategy. And that's the fundamental issue.

Why in gods name should modders have to invest effort into hacking together something working (well, maybe, until the next update) on a paradigm that stands against everything they believe in in computing platforms?

So its not a technical issue...its a philosophical one...

Why do you equate the PC platform with Microsoft? If anything, we should all get off of Windows and lobby developers to start using Vulkan and SteamOS or any Linux distro.

Gaming is and never will be Microsoft's primary focus. UWA was not a decision to help gamers. The Windows Store was not a decision to help gamers. Microsoft wants to control Windows like Apple controls iOS.

This is not beneficial to the consumer.

2016 year of linux on the desktop in gaming

 

[Durante]

Ohh no... better go write a "PC is dying" article.
We haven't had one of those in a while jk

Although I have no readily available data to prove this wrong, I will just say that more and more console exclusive's are coming to PC.
Why would publishers do that if PC's were in decline?

"PCs are in decline" is a argument that needs to be examined closely, because it's technically true.

However, enthusiast GPU sales doubled in 2015, and Steam numbers continue to rise, so clearly PC gaming -- which, hey, is what this article is about -- is not in decline.

MS could make the perfect platform for revitalizing the entire PC market (though I'd argue that UWP is very far from that), but it doesn't really mean shit about its suitability for the growing enthusiast PC gamer market.

 

[papo]

I don't understand people jumping to the defense of MS here. I don't see any benefits to gamers as a whole with the move to UWA.

Since when has Microsoft recently improved PC gaming? Games for Windows Live? Yea ok. Let's trust Microsoft to try that again, I'm sure they'll get it right this time!

This is a gaming forum and I don't see this being beneficial to gamers, regardless of how anyone thinks that it could be beneficial to normal users. Which most of NeoGAF isn't.

I am not jumping to the defense of MS, but to the defense of what they announced. I actually think we should give it a chance because this is may be something positive for gaming in general. Maybe not for PC gaming, but not bad either.

MS has not recently improved PC gaming that is true. Though they have invested in technologies to improve such things. Theirs servers, DX12 etc those are some examples though they are not proven, which does not mean something negative just for that.

This is a gaming forum mainly dealing with consoles since that's usually where the majority of people go since it is more affordable. I think this move is beneficial for console gaming even if that does not make sense.

For PC gaming well if the tool work then they might be beneficial for Win10 and their store and some developer going forward. If not it will be their version of Steam/Origin which has better support because it is part of the xbox brand and it is on their OS. It would be like having a closed Xbox system on the PC which is only beneficial for those wanting to play those games on PC.

MS has done wonderful work with improving their OS in console to make the best around, at least IMO, so I am guessing they will do that here, improve the stores and add some of the features people want. Only in their system.

Why do I think it is positive for console gaming? Well incremental updates will help shorten the generations, will help give a path to upgrades and by maybe doing upgrades every 2 or 3 years we'll have hardware that would eventually be current, not oudated, and go along with PCs so maybe eventually we'll have consoles on par or similar to PC hardware and everyone wins. That is just one way I think it is positive for gaming in general.

"PCs are in decline" is a argument that needs to be examined closely, because it's technically true.

However, enthusiast GPU sales doubled in 2015, and Steam numbers continue to rise, so clearly PC gaming -- which, hey, is what this article is about -- is not in decline.

MS could make the perfect platform for revitalizing the entire PC market (though I'd argue that UWP is very far from that), but it doesn't really mean shit about its suitability for the growing enthusiast PC gamer market.

Yes I agree totally and it is a shame. As a computer engineer it is sad to see PCs declining because people just want the quick easy to use fix that are smartphones and tablets. I remember way back having the fear that PC would eventually die because of this and it may be true.

As for MS revitalizing the PC market? I doubt it unless the tools they bring are game changing. I still think they may revitalize it in an indirect way. Like I stated above, it is my opinion that this move benefits console gaming the most and eventually PC gaming could benefit from it. But I do not mean the UWP at all, but the entire plan and incremental console upgrades.

 

[Costia]

For what it's worth, I do think that the statement "unsigned code can not interact with UWAs" is probably wrong if you take it as an absolute and without context. That's also why my article, which may I remind you this thread is about, says no such thing.
Why? Because UWA, at least at this point in time, is sure to have security holes, especially when opposed by the administrator of a system.

However, the fundamental difference is that dll injection working on Win32 is business as usual, and more than that it's not something that will ever change.

I don't doubt that with implementation effort you can currently get dll injection to work with UWA, but from the point of view of the apparent security design goals of UWP that's a bug, not a feature.

Basing mods or any other lasting work (basically, anything other than cheats which will still happily hack into any hole they find) on something which could be "fixed" at the OS level at any point is not a viable long-term strategy. And that's the fundamental issue.

I took your statement as you provided it in that thread.
I agree with the rest of this post.
In general, I dont think anyone should be basing their commercial software on dll injection and such.
From the prespective of a regular user it is a bug and a security problem. So I don't see a problem in having an "unhackable", more "average user" friendly ecosystem in addition to a win32 API (or equivalent) one.
And like I have already mentioned, I don't see win32 going away, at least not without an equally open platform to replace it (Edit: which might be whatever evolves from UWA with some changes).

 

[LordRaptor]

These people are, by the numbers of mobile game downloads, also gamers. Many people game on mobile. They're not "gone" even if they won't buy another beige box, because the real benefit of UWAs is that PCs don't have to be beige boxes exclusively.

It might seem like semantics, but there's an underlying point here I hope you bare with me on; for many users a phone is wholly a substitute good. In fact, it is arguable that a phone is a better substitiute than a beige box, because phones actually have dedicated GPUs as standard, and the wintel monopoly denied that for years, causing market fragmentation between 'gamers' (people who had purchased a dedicated GPU as an after-sale component, or who build their own devices) and 'regular users' with their off the shelf expensive builds that didn't run anything requiring, say hardware T&L.

I'm not saying that mobile phone games are not games; I am saying that in a dwindling user space of consumer PC purchasers, PC gamers (again, my qualifier here is people who care enough about gaming to buy specific hardware to enable that functionality) are one of the few user groups you can point to and definitively state "These people will not buy a phone instead of a PC. A phone is not a substitute product for these people".

 

[Akronis]

2016 year of linux on the desktop in gaming

Sorry if I don't like the idea of Microsoft adding more bullshit that doesn't benefit me and a bunch of other people like me that care. Microsoft has tripped and fallen about 11 times when trying to "help PC gamers." Why the fuck are people now suddenly convinced that this is something good for them?

I am not jumping to the defense of MS, but to the defense of what they announced. I actually think we should give it a chance because this is may be something positive for gaming in general. Maybe not for PC gaming, but not bad either.

MS has not recently improved PC gaming that is true. Though they have invested in technologies to improve such things. Theirs servers, DX12 etc those are some examples though they are not proven, which does not mean something negative just for that.

This is a gaming forum mainly dealing with consoles since that's usually where the majority of people go since it is more affordable. I think this move is beneficial for console gaming even if that does not make sense.

For PC gaming well if the tool work then they might be beneficial for Win10 and their store and some developer going forward. If not it will be their version of Steam/Origin which has better support because it is part of the xbox brand and it is on their OS. It would be like having a closed Xbox system on the PC which is only beneficial for those wanting to play those games on PC.

MS has done wonderful work with improving their OS in console to make the best around, at least IMO, so I am guessing they will do that here, improve the stores and add some of the features people want. Only in their system.

Why do I think it is positive for console gaming? Well incremental updates will help shorten the generations, will help give a path to upgrades and by maybe doing upgrades every 2 or 3 years we'll have hardware that would eventually be current, not oudated, and go along with PCs so maybe eventually we'll have consoles on par or similar to PC hardware and everyone wins. That is just one way I think it is positive for gaming in general.

So I have to accept a bunch of arbitrary caveats so console gamers can also get better hardware? That's nonsense.

This has literally nothing to do with consoles. This is closer to Microsoft trying to make an app store akin to Google Play and the Apple App Store.

There is nothing preventing Microsoft from offering hardware options on the Xbox One. I don't understand why you think the brands need to be married for this sort of thing to work.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

 

[dude]

"PCs are in decline" is a argument that needs to be examined closely, because it's technically true.

However, enthusiast GPU sales doubled in 2015, and Steam numbers continue to rise, so clearly PC gaming -- which, hey, is what this article is about -- is not in decline.

MS could make the perfect platform for revitalizing the entire PC market (though I'd argue that UWP is very far from that), but it doesn't really mean shit about its suitability for the growing enthusiast PC gamer market.

That's true. But my claim is that if the "general users" or "normal users" or however we're calling them in this thread is leaving the PC platform, this rise could be reversed. Maybe I'm wrong, but I find this trend quite alarming.

 

[mcrommert]

This is amazing

 

[JaggedSac]

Lol

 

[Durante]

So its not a technical issue...its a philosophical one...

Not at all. UWP gives Microsoft a feasible technical option for greatly inconveniencing at the least -- and completely preventing at worst -- unintended modding of games.

Win32 does not. That's the technical difference it all comes back to, and yes, it does lead to deeply troubling conclusions.

I took your statement as you provided it in that thread.
I agree with the rest of this post.
In general, I dont think anyone should be basing their commercial software on dll injection and such.
From the prespective of a regular user it is a bug and a security problem. So I don't see a problem in having an "unhackable", more "average user" friendly ecosystem in addition to a win32 API (or equivalent) one.
And like I have already mentioned, I don't see win32 going away, at least not without an equally open platform to replace it.

The full context was UWP as a platform. Using a Win32 application to inject unsigned code into UWP is something that works only as long as (a) Microsoft doesn't "improve" UWP and (b) Win32 exists and is allowed to interact with UWP applications.

Both of those are far from certain in the future -- and you seem to agree with that -- so there is no viable long-term path to modding UWAs. If you see one please do tell me.

That's true. But my claim is that if the "general users" or "normal users" or however we're calling them in this thread is leaving the PC platform, this rise could be reversed. Maybe I'm wrong, but I find this trend quite alarming.

I don't know. That trend started 3 or so years ago, and the past 2 years have been better in terms of PC releases from my point of view than any in the decade preceding them.

 

[Akronis]

That's true. But my claim is that if the "general users" or "normal users" or however we're calling them in this thread is leaving the PC platform, this rise could be reversed. Maybe I'm wrong, but I find this trend quite alarming.

Normal users aren't buying graphics cards.

 

[dude]

Normal users aren't buying graphics cards.

Not all games require top of the line graphics cards.

 

[Dame]

But they always want more. Unfortunately for them they're no good at hiding their intentions.

How does a corporation manage to be this obviously obtuse and greedy, only to keep operating as if they don't do underhanded things on the daily? I mean...just wow.
Yeah yeah,microsoft isn't the first, corporations,capitalism, meeting bottom lines, i get it.

Turning games into this proprietary-like gated thing, just goes to show there isn't an idea microsoft has thought up that they don't immediately want to monopolize in some anti-consumer way. It's baffling how they're still capable of generating revenue when it blows up in their face so much.

 

[Akronis]

Not all games require top of the line graphics cards.

So how would those people affect this "decline of PC gaming" if they aren't affecting graphics card sales? If people are buying higher end GPUs (not including workstation cards), they're doing it mostly for gaming.

The GTX 970 is also the most common GPU on Steam surveys and Steam is quite the majority of PC gamers.

 

[papo]

Sorry if I don't like the idea of Microsoft adding more bullshit that doesn't benefit me and a bunch of other people like me that care. Microsoft has tripped and fallen about 11 times when trying to "help PC gamers." Why the fuck are people now suddenly convinced that this is something good for them?



So I have to accept a bunch of arbitrary caveats so console gamers can also get better hardware? That's nonsense.

This has literally nothing to do with consoles. This is closer to Microsoft trying to make an app store akin to Google Play and the Apple App Store.

There is nothing preventing Microsoft from offering hardware options on the Xbox One. I don't understand why you think the brands need to be married for this sort of thing to work.

It does not, but it is their plan. I guess by the way you replied you truly hate Ms or have something against them so you are already biased. But this has literally to do as much with consoles as it does for PC. This literally is the rebranding or evolution of what Xbox is.

If you only see this as an attack from MS to everyone else and as the attempt from MS to make a universal app for EVERYTHING not just it's gaming brand then I cannot help you there because this is not what I think is happening at all.

This is MS building on their brand. They want their Xbox games on PC but only playable in their own closed system because they should protect their investment right? This in no way says Steam, any other tool or any other service will go away unless they comply to MS demands. This is just not true and just comes from your bias against them.

 

[Durante]

So how would those people affect this "decline of PC gaming" if they aren't affecting graphics card sales? If people are buying higher end GPUs (not including workstation cards), they're doing it mostly for gaming.

I think his point is that there are fewer people playing casual games on PC and that that audience is moving to tablets/phones.

I think this is probably true, but I don't see the issue with that, and certainly not to the extent that it's worth changing the PC software ecosystem into a mobile software ecosystem to somehow lure these people back. (Especially since the reason they left -- if indeed they did -- is probably more down to the form factor than the software infrastructure)

If you only see this as an attack from MS to everyone else and as the attempt from MS to make a universal app for EVERYTHING not just it's gaming brand then I cannot help you there because this is not what I think is happening at all.

"Universal apps for everything" (except for legacy enterprise Win32) is the mantra coming out of MS, from marketing over technical documentation all the way to the very name.

 

[dude]

So how would those people affect this "decline of PC gaming" if they aren't affecting graphics card sales?

My girlfriend, who is no what passes for gamer in the narrow definition this thread created, is quite happy gaming on her Intel integrated GPU, she playes many 2d P&C adventure games (She loves Wadjet Eye games) and the likes. She buys them on Steam, and enjoys them quite a bit more than the mobile games she usually plays.
But, lately she's considering replaceing her aging laptop with an iPad, as she doesn't do much on it buy watch Youtube and write down lectures (and play games, but those are not very important to her, even as she enjoys them.
This is what I'm talking about - Right now she's a user who contributes to the general PC gaming economy- buying on Steam, seeing there other games that might interest her etc. but could easily give it up because the general trend is to move away from the PC. I think there are many potential PC gamers out there, and they could help grow PC gaming as a whole.

I think his point is that there are fewer people playing casual games on PC and that that audience is moving to tablets/phones.

I think this is probably true, but I don't see the issue with that, and certainly not to the extent that it's worth changing the PC software ecosystem into a mobile software ecosystem to somehow lure these people back. (Especially since the reason they left -- if indeed they did -- is probably more down to the form factor than the software infrastructure)

It's true that form factor is a big factor here, but UWAs do come with a push for more than just one kind of PC form factor. But, it's also about making PCs more friendly to users who are accustomed to mobile, and I think that's good. I just don't want it to replace what is already there. This is why I'm rooting for UWAs to improve (for all use cases - Mine and the general user) rather than die.

 

[LordRaptor]

Not all games require top of the line graphics cards.

But the logical extension to this is that MS might as well pack in their entire gaming division, because Clash of Clans has twice as many daily users as the Xbox One has sold in its entire lifetime.

"Games" is a very broad reaching term.

 

[Akronis]

I think his point is that there are fewer people playing casual games on PC and that that audience is moving to tablets/phones.

I think this is probably true, but I don't see the issue with that, and certainly not to the extent that it's worth changing the PC software ecosystem into a mobile software ecosystem to somehow lure these people back. (Especially since the reason they left -- if indeed they did -- is probably more down to the form factor than the software infrastructure)

Ok, that makes more sense to me; I was quite confused as I wasn't sure what he was getting at.

PC gaming has really never revolved around casual gaming as its core audience. That's not where the money is being made (in this case, F2P games like League of Legends are not considered casual games, I'm speaking mostly to mobile shit on PC).

It's true that form factor is a big factor here, but UWAs do come with a push for more than just one kind of PC form factor. But, it's also about making PCs more friendly to users who are accustomed to mobile, and I think that's good. I just don't want it to replace what is already there. This is why I'm rooting for UWAs to improve (for all use cases - Mine and the general user) rather than die.

How is UWA as a platform making it easier on users to game? You're confusing the Windows Store with UWA. Microsoft could have easily made the Windows Store use Win32 and there would be no difference. It's a UI.

 

[Costia]

Not at all. UWP gives Microsoft a feasible technical option for greatly inconveniencing at the least -- and completely preventing at worst -- unintended modding of games.
Win32 does not. That's the technical difference it all comes back to, and yes, it does lead to deeply troubling conclusions.
The full context was UWP as a platform. Using a Win32 application to inject unsigned code into UWP is something that works only as long as (a) Microsoft doesn't "improve" UWP and (b) Win32 exists and is allowed to interact with UWP applications.
Both of those are far from certain in the future -- and you seem to agree with that -- so there is no viable long-term path to modding UWAs. If you see one please do tell me.
I don't know. That trend started 3 or so years ago, and the past 2 years have been better in terms of PC releases from my point of view than any in the decade preceding them.

First, I would like to point out that we are speaking about a very specific type of modding. The type that requires hooking. Regarding this type of modding, it could go both ways, and yes, it might become not viable for UWA, which in general isn't a bad thing, since using UWA is optional.
I will repeat myself yet again, and say that I don't see a future where a locked down UWA platfrom is the only option. MS isn't the only company that wants to make money, and I dont think that the rest of the PC software developers (not just games) would agree to such an outcome. And i don't think MS has a strong enough position (they missed the mobile market, and the PC market is in decline) to force them.

The jump in enthusiast GPU sale is nice, but are those new customers or existing ones who bought a more expensive card. And what do the mean by "enthusiast" anyway. I think that overall MS are losing customers, and quite fast.

 

[tuxfool]

This is what I'm talking about - Right now she's a user who contributes to the general PC gaming economy- buying on Steam, seeing there other games that might interest her etc. but could easily give it up because the general trend is to move away from the PC. I think there are many potential PC gamers out there, and they could help grow PC gaming as a whole.

And how do UWPs change that? She seemingly has no problems with steam...

They provide no benefits in this situation and a lot of other problems.

 

[jim2point0]

SLI/Crossfire can be use in Windowed Fullscreen

Not in my experience. Every single game i play in windowed fullscreen runs worse than real fullscreen when SLI is enabled. Huge difference in FPS with windowed mode being much more stuttery.

This is why I'll probably never go SLI again. I just value borderless way too much. Not being able to quickly alt-tab is a real bummer.

 

[dude]

And how do UWPs change that? She seemingly has no problems with steam...

Because she wants a device that can run Instagram and her PC doesn't. Because she wants a device that is easy to use. If those were the case, she might opt for a tablet PC rather than an iPad. UWP has the potential to bring both of those.

And I don't consider "casual" games strictly as ship F2P offerings. I think any accessible game could be played by a casual gamer. I have many friends who are not gamers but enjoy Civ.

How is UWA as a platform making it easier on users to game? You're confusing the Windows Store with UWA. Microsoft could have easily made the Windows Store use Win32 and there would be no difference. It's a UI.

That's true. But I think UWAs are the only real opportunity for this shift to work because they provide a cross-device platform.

 

[LordRaptor]

PC gaming has really never revolved around casual gaming as its core audience. That's not where the money is being made (in this case, F2P games like League of Legends are not considered casual games, I'm speaking mostly to mobile shit on PC).

I think there is an argument to be made that prior to the introduction of dedicated GPUs the PC games market was at its very healthiest.
The whole 'enthusiast' split came about as a result of a dedicated GPU being a requirement for many titles, and arguably marked the start of 'PC gamings dark age'.

 

[cireza]

Article was a great read.

 

[Durante]

Regarding this type of modding, it could go both ways, and yes, it might become not viable for UWA, which in general isn't a bad thing, since using UWA is optional.

So ultimately you don't fundamentally disagree with me on the technical level.

What we disagree on are two things:

• How important that is to us, and consequently how important it is to work against even the tiniest possibility of such a future coming to pass. This is not surprising, I do care more than most.
• Whether or not MS is in a position to gradually, over many years, disincentivize Win32 use and incentivize UWA to the extent that the latter is the only truly viable option in for-profit game development.

For the second point, I truly hope that you are correct.
In fact, this applies to everyone telling me that I'm overreacting or painting too grim a picture: if in 10 years I can still easily mod a game then I'll buy each of you a beer and laugh at how silly I was. Happily.

 

[Akronis]

I think there is an argument to be made that prior to the introduction of dedicated GPUs the PC games market was at its very healthiest.
The whole 'enthusiast' split came about as a result of a dedicated GPU being a requirement for many titles, and arguably marked the start of 'PC gamings dark age'.

I don't understand how it's relevant in this argument. Are you implying that UWA is a similar barrier for users and it will become commonplace overtime? If that's what you're getting at, I fail to see the comparison.

Microsoft is requiring you to relinquish control over files that are on your local computer. This may or may not change. Completely up to Microsoft.

There is no competition to be had here if this is built into the OS.

That's true. But I think UWAs are the only real opportunity for this shift to work because they provide a cross-device platform.

At a cost to PC that many disagree with. I still don't understand why mobile and PC need to somehow be tied together. They are both doing perfectly fine on their own.

 

[Corto]

My girlfriend, who is no what passes for gamer in the narrow definition this thread created, is quite happy gaming on her Intel integrated GPU, she playes many 2d P&C adventure games (She loves Wadjet Eye games) and the likes. She buys them on Steam, and enjoys them quite a bit more than the mobile games she usually plays.
But, lately she's considering replaceing her aging laptop with an iPad, as she doesn't do much on it buy watch Youtube and write down lectures (and play games, but those are not very important to her, even as she enjoys them.
This is what I'm talking about - Right now she's a user who contributes to the general PC gaming economy- buying on Steam, seeing there other games that might interest her etc. but could easily give it up because the general trend is to move away from the PC. I think there are many potential PC gamers out there, and they could help grow PC gaming as a whole.




It's true that form factor is a big factor here, but UWAs do come with a push for more than just one kind of PC form factor. But, it's also about making PCs more friendly to users who are accustomed to mobile, and I think that's good. I just don't want it to replace what is already there. This is why I'm rooting for UWAs to improve (for all use cases - Mine and the general user) rather than die.

PC is the most user friendly platform there is. It is modular and layered in such a way that it can be used by completely different users with completely different technical skills with minimal hurdles everyday around the globe for decades now. Power users, casual users, professional users. Limiting its scope to an specific target user, in this case the casual user, doesn't making it "more user-friendly" it's just limiting it to a very specific audience that has other alternatives, in terms of OS and in form factor, more suitable for their needs.

 

[LordRaptor]

I don't understand how it's relevant in this argument.

It's not especially, other than how meaningless and difficult a 'casual' / 'enthusiast' definition of a userbase is when looking at games and saying "My friends not casual because they play Solium Infernum" / "My friend is casual because they play CoD BO3 on a 560ti".

Its why I chose my definition of "PC gamer" to be the split based on whether they had or had not purchased a dedicated GPU (which in basically only used for gaming in the consumer space), not the type of game they play.

 

[JaggedSac]

But the logical extension to this is that MS might as well pack in their entire gaming division, because Clash of Clans has twice as many daily users as the Xbox One has sold in its entire lifetime.

"Games" is a very broad reaching term.

They did just close a bunch of studios.

 

[tuxfool]

Because she wants a device that can run Instagram and her PC doesn't. Because she wants a device that is easy to use. If those were the case, she might opt for a tablet PC rather than an iPad. UWP has the potential to bring both of those.

And I don't consider "casual" games strictly as ship F2P offerings. I think any accessible game could be played by a casual gamer. I have many friends who are not gamers but enjoy Civ.


That's true. But I think UWAs are the only real opportunity for this shift to work because they provide a cross-device platform.

UWPs aren't magic. They won't magically make games work everywhere. Developers will still need to put in work to make those games work and scale on different architectures.

Unless she is going for an x86 tablet, in which case Steam will work perfectly fine there too.

 

[Stitch]

Are people forced to upgrade to WinStore version of Minecraft? I haven't really been following that.

No, if you own Minecraft you get Minecraft WinStore version for free but you don't have to use it. I'm not sure why I actually should. Playing it with the controller is relaxing, but I can do that with the normal version too.

With normal Minecraft I can use the Steam Overlay and with that I can use my Steam Controller.
I can also force Anti-Aliasing and use nicer looking skinpacks.

 

[Costia]

So ultimately you don't fundamentally disagree with me on the technical level.
What we disagree on are two things:

• How important that is to us, and consequently how important it is to work against even the tiniest possibility of such a future coming to pass. This is not surprising, I do care more than most.
• Whether or not MS is in a position to gradually, over many years, disincentivize Win32 use and incentivize UWA to the extent that the latter is the only truly viable option in for-profit game development.

For the second point, I truly hope that you are correct.
In fact, this applies to everyone telling me that I'm overreacting or painting too grim a picture: if in 10 years I can still easily mod a game then I'll buy each of you a beer and laugh at how silly I was. Happily.

Yes, that sums it up quite nicely.
Now back to playing games, instead of arguing about them.

 

[Akronis]

It's not especially, other than how meaningless and difficult a 'casual' / 'enthusiast' definition of a userbase is when looking at games and saying "My friends not casual because they play Solium Infernum" / "My friend is casual because they play CoD BO3 on a 560ti".

Its why I chose my definition of "PC gamer" to be the split based on whether they had or had not purchased a dedicated GPU (which in basically only used for gaming in the consumer space), not the type of game they play.

I see what you're saying. I was not the one to bring up the whole core gamers vs. normal users argument though. I was just following through with that line of logic. Apologies if I sounded like I was antagonistic.

 

[DryvBy]

The difference with Origin is that EA has no control over the OS. They can't use means to force you to use thier store over any other. Microsoft does have that power.

It was suspicious the moment MS started giving away and even trying to force Win 10 on users. They must plan to make money from these users in a different way. If we're all just running traditional third party windows programs then Microsoft aren't getting a cent from anyone in this model. The plan is obviously to nudge or push us towards the store they get a cut from every purchase.

Nothing is truly free. Facebook, Google, Twitter... Our privacy is sold and that's what the business is for these people: data mining. Windows 10 was pushed for the same purpose. The best part is they have it running really well (outside of random leaks I've had) so it's hard to just say "nah" to it.

I miss the 90s. lol

 

[dude]

UWPs aren't magic. They won't magically make games work everywhere. Developers will still need to put in work to make those games work and scale on different architectures.

Unless she is going for an x86 tablet, in which case Steam will work perfectly fine there too.

I'm talking of the possibilities, I know it won't happen automatically.

And I should clarify, I don't want UWA to replace win32, I don't think what I'm talking about should come at a price. I want UWA to either have all and any functionionality we'd expect from win32 or to exist along side win32.

 

[tuxfool]

Where did I imply UWP is magic? I don't think people will play triple-a games on their PC tablets, I'm talking about less hardware intensive games that might reach more people..

Regardless. It still will take work to guarantee that the games work well in different architectures.

Either way it isn't like we are lacking in mobile->PC ports (and vice versa when applicable). Steam is absolutely loaded with them.

 

[StereoVsn]

Ohh no... better go write a "PC is dying" article.
We haven't had one of those in a while jk

Although I have no readily available data to prove this wrong, I will just say that more and more console exclusive's are coming to PC.
Why would publishers do that if PC's were in decline?

There was just a few days ago an article mentioned right here on Neogaf about enthusiast GPU sales doubling in a year. So 2x GPU sales in a year but PC as a platform for gaming is apparently dying (don't tell Steam that, apparently their increasing accounts is a lie or an indie game selling 250k+ this week is also a lie).

I am not sure what the heck is happening in this thread. It's got to be either MS astroturfers/employees or people completely clueless or maybe the mixture of the two.

 

[Durante]

I wrote some more philosophical thoughts about application signing on my blog.

Basically:
Signing = good
Signing on a platform controlled by a commercial interest = Prone to abuse

 

[QaaQer]

No it isn't.
Unless you believe that the Future of the Windows platform is as an unpopular mobile phone operating system, not as a desktop monopoly.


.

If win10 is successful, then yes.

Nadella has said the future is Continuum. Which, as I understand it, is putting a mobile device in a dock connected to full-sized keyboards, mice, and a monitor to make a 'pc'. The programs on the device will instantly shift into desktop mode, and the person will be able to work as if on a regular old PC. The power of the continuum pc will be augmented by local hardware and/or cloud computing. When done, disconnect and the device switches back into a phone.

Part of the paradigm is having old fashioned PCs behave and feel exactly like a continuum pc. That means uwa only because those are the only apps that will do what MS wants, i.e. immediate switching of inputs when docked/undocked.

Since their mobile market share is 1-3%, in order for this vision to happen, they need to transition people on the desktop to uwa and make them aware of how cool and productive Continuum devices are--Continuum devices being phones and tablets.

I'm guessing the rumored Intel-Windows phone will be coming soon and we'll be having a bunch of ads showing how great it is to take your pc with you wherever you go.

 

[StereoVsn]

So ultimately you don't fundamentally disagree with me on the technical level.

What we disagree on are two things:

• How important that is to us, and consequently how important it is to work against even the tiniest possibility of such a future coming to pass. This is not surprising, I do care more than most.
• Whether or not MS is in a position to gradually, over many years, disincentivize Win32 use and incentivize UWA to the extent that the latter is the only truly viable option in for-profit game development.

For the second point, I truly hope that you are correct.
In fact, this applies to everyone telling me that I'm overreacting or painting too grim a picture: if in 10 years I can still easily mod a game then I'll buy each of you a beer and laugh at how silly I was. Happily.

I can absolutely see Microsoft disincentivize Win32 for gaming over UWA but leave it alone for Enterprise applications. Currently income from PC gaming is minuscule to MS so I can easily see them throw shit at the wall to try to change that, including trying to force people into Win10 store.

That's what is troublesome overall and not just Win32 living on for next 10 years.

Win32 by itself is not going away because that is MS major moneymaker as that's what Enterprise software is written on and that's not changing any time soon. If MS wants to keep charging Enterprises that sweet EA revenue (enterprise agreement), and they do, then they have to leave it the heck alone.

Now, some of that is changing due to increased cloud services (pick your XaaX flavour), but there are still enough zeroes there that MS won't touch the sacred cow.

 

[OmarTheHippo]

No, if you own Minecraft you get Minecraft WinStore version for free but you don't have to use it. I'm not sure why I actually should. Playing it with the controller is relaxing, but I can do that with the normal version too.

With normal Minecraft I can use the Steam Overlay and with that I can use my Steam Controller.
I can also force Anti-Aliasing and use nicer looking skinpacks.

Which is a great example of what people are worried about. When/if Microsoft makes DirectX12 features exclusive to UWP (for "security reasons" or whatever), and you're stuck facing a dilemma:

Nicer performance/graphics on UWP version...

... at the cost of those overlays, custom controllers, and AA injection

The Win32 version might continue to exist but won't be making the forward progress other games are making. Assuming developers don't get tired of supporting outdated Win32 versions of the game and kill it themselves

UWP isn't a problem now when gamers can make a choice between versions. But if Microsoft incentivizes UWP at an artificial API/OS level, it hurts Win32 gaming. They won't outright kill it, they cause its stagnation and irrelevance

The conversation should remain in the tone of Durante's article; bringing attention to a possible dangerous path (embrace, extend, and exterminate) so we can be vocal about preventing it. People arguing the technical aspects of what UWP can/cannot do should all agree that the freedom of those technical specs should remain open. It's what's best for PC gaming. The refrain from everyone should be "keep features and freedom on the PC platform level and equal". There should be no argument on that

When troops amass at the border, people can argue all day about intentions and hypotheticals. But no matter what people decide, you keep a damn close watch on those troops. Sweeney and Newell might have gone the sensational route of getting our attention. But they definitely had a point

 

[AndyMoogle]

Which is a great example of what people are worried about. When/if Microsoft makes DirectX12 features exclusive to UWP (for "security reasons" or whatever), and you're stuck facing a dilemma:

Nicer performance/graphics on UWP version...

... at the cost of those overlays, custom controllers, and AA injection

The Win32 version might continue to exist but won't be making the forward progress other games are making. Assuming developers don't get tired of supporting outdated Win32 versions of the game and kill it themselves

UWP isn't a problem now when gamers can make a choice between versions. But if Microsoft incentivizes UWP at an artificial API/OS level, it hurts Win32 gaming. They won't outright kill it, they cause its stagnation and irrelevance

The conversation should remain in the tone of Durante's article; bringing attention to a possible dangerous path (embrace, extend, and exterminate) so we can be vocal about preventing it. People arguing the technical aspects of what UWP can/cannot do should all agree that the freedom of those technical specs should remain open. It's what's best for PC gaming. The refrain from everyone should be "keep features and freedom on the PC platform level and equal". There should be no argument on that

When troops amass at the border, people can argue all day about intentions and hypotheticals. But no matter what people decide, you keep a damn close watch on those troops. Sweeney and Newell might have gone the sensational route of getting our attention. But they definitely had a point

DX12 isn't the only API though, so there can still be new features/better performance as long as Win32 isn't completely locked out from the OS.

Most of the big engines will have or already have support for Vulkan. Source 2, UE4 and Frostbite Engine are already known to support Vulkan, and I think Unity and CryEngine 3 will also have it.

 

[thechristoph]

Just speaking as someone who follows this business as an enthusiast, what's interesting to me is that I see this as something that'd entice japanese developers. Lock up your games in a walled garden, don't let people tinker with them, we get what we get. Interesting in that it's MS that's leading the charge. I see Activision to be the publisher most likely to go all-in with MS on this.

Ubi and EA have their own storefronts; what on earth why they abandon their own stores? I guess they don't have to, and they can sell UWP games on Origin and uPlay, but that hurts Microsoft's intended appeal as the Windows Store as the one stop shop. So if they're not using the Windows Store, then why go through the changes and (assuming here) extra effort to build games as a UWP app?

Steam crushes all anyway. In the long run, we may have the big three third parties and MS first party games using UWP. Japanese developers are probably seeing a lot of success on Steam, and while their attitudes toward open platforms may make UWP attractive, why switch revenue streams so soon after embracing Steam?

It's going to be fascinating and scary to see this shake out. Microsoft isn't afraid of bailing on a bad idea, so even if this sticks, most of us will probably be content to play Halo 7 through the Microsoft Store on our PCs and keep our massive libraries of games made the traditional way on Steam.

 

[L4DANathan]

Now, I'm not a religious man, but if there's a second coming of Jesus, I'm pretty sure it's Durante.