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[Zelias]

Durante fighting the good fight.

 

[Costia]

Was only referring to the "can be supported by any store" line

Still doesn't mean much. There still might be requirements attached to this "can" that would make it technically possible but not viable for commercial purposes.

SLI/Crossfire makes use of an additional buffer. It is, essentially, a triple buffer-like solution. Windows does not, it will only take advantage of two buffers at once. You gain no advantage of your second GPU when in windowed mode.

That's what DX12 is supposed to fix with SFR.
http://www.overclock3d.net/gfx/articles/2015/05/28050433850l.jpg

 

[Krejlooc]

I honestly don't know how to say this...but you're wrong. Windowed sli is less performant but it definitely works.

"less performant" is an understatement. Windows Compositor fucks with load balancing like crazy. Some public desktop examples using an SLI 970 configuration and nvidia benchmark application:

windowed:

fullscreen:

WTF? One card sitting at 90% use while the other hovers around 50%? Nope.

 

[mcrommert]

"less performant" is an understatement. Windows Compositor fucks with load balancing like crazy. Some public desktop examples using an SLI 970 configuration and nvidia benchmark application:

windowed:

fullscreen:

WTF? One card sitting at 90% use while the other hovers around 50%? Nope.

No arguments. I am hoping that the Composition EX gets pushed to uwp sooner rather than later...but you did say

You gain no advantage of your second GPU when in windowed mode.

And that isn't true

 

[JaggedSac]

Go get em gaf:

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/03/tim-sweeney-is-missing-the-point-the-pc-platform-needs-fixing/

Spoiler

Sorry Pete

 

[Krejlooc]

And that isn't true

It is true, because the difference in load results in stuttering because A) one card is being pushed at fucking 90% load and B) your frame pacing becomes a joke. All this means, in real world terms, is that my performance actually nose dives when in windowed mode. I've actually seen applications perform better with a single card in windowed mode than an SLI configuration.

 

[mcrommert]

Go get em gaf:

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/03/tim-sweeney-is-missing-the-point-the-pc-platform-needs-fixing/

Spoiler

Sorry Pete

Yeah i actually disagree with some of the things he's dismissing. But that is sort of what Peter Bright does.

 

[ShadowSoldier89]

It is true, because the difference in load results in stuttering because A) one card is being pushed at fucking 90% load and B) your frame pacing becomes a joke. All this means, in real world terms, is that my performance actually nose dives when in windowed mode. I've actually seen applications perform better with a single card in windowed mode than an SLI configuration.

in crossfire your second card is just ignored in windowed. Its actually how I handle games that are launched with bad crossfire scaling. I just turn the game to windowed mode instead of taking the time to disable crossfire for that specific game.

 

[StereoVsn]

The one good thing about Win32 usage right now is that enterprises do NOT (at all) utilize UWP/UWA. All enterprise software is Win32. There is 0 incentive to go to UWP/UWA model. Enterprises do not let users install software in any case and utilize such things as SCCM (System Center Configuration Manager, also by MS) or similar solutions from HP, Altiris, CA, etc... Heck, vast majority kill Windows store and uninstall all apps in custom images that employees get.

So from the point of Win32 going away, no, that's not going to happen any time soon as MS' bread and butter is not in Win store sales, OS to consumer sales, Game/Xbox sales and so on... Enterprise software/licensing is what drives their profitability (with Office 365, Azure, CRM, etc... coming up fast).

Now, for gaming, its a different story as MS can drive people to Win10 Store through incentives, Visual Studio links, API deprecating, DirectX 12, etc.... but still, Win32 is not going away for over 10 years at least (Win10 with Win32 library just came out, and Long Term Support is 10 years minimum) and most likely more.

 

[TBiddy]

Except that you didnt read what I wrote. At the time, Spencer said it wasnt coming BECAUSE they cant developp it at the same time. He never said it wasnt coming but basically said its not coming until we finish the Xbox version.

This is going to sound condescending, but it it's meant that way. What you wrote and what you meant were not the same. Now that you've cleared it up, it makes a bit more sense, but even then it's still not true. Notice this quote "Going to those teams mid-cycle and saying: ‘Hey, by the way, I want to add a platform,’. He never mentions that the platform wasn't already added, especially since he talks about "mid-cycle". QB was far past mid-cycle back in August 2015.

Spencer is experienced, and if you read his words with the same pedantic thinking as people read Microsofts press-releases, you'll notice a lot of very carefully chosen words.

The Kinect isn't abandoned. It still works, doesn't it, even after the Windows 10 update for the XB1?

When it comes to Steam, what makes you think that Microsoft doesn't support Steam any longer?

 

[GhostTrick]

This is going to sound condescending, but it it's meant that way. What you wrote and what you meant were not the same. Now that you've cleared it up, it makes a bit more sense, but even then it's still not true. Notice this quote "Going to those teams mid-cycle and saying: ‘Hey, by the way, I want to add a platform,’. He never mentions that the platform wasn't already added, especially since he talks about "mid-cycle".

Spencer is experienced, and if you read his words with the same pedantic thinking as people read Microsofts press-releases, you'll notice a lot of very carefully chosen words.

The Kinect isn't abandoned. It still works, doesn't it, even after the Windows 10 update for the XB1?

When it comes to Steam, what makes you think that Microsoft doesn't support Steam any longer?

So PR spinning as I said. Basically, what Spencer says is as valuable as a PR talk. Spencer is experienced in PR indeed.

As for Microsoft not supporting steam, I could say the fact that they're not releasing their games there but much more simple:
You cant add UWA to Steam the same way you can add non Steam games to Steam. You need to go throught a tedious and long process, and in the end, the Steam overlay doesnt work.

 

[TBiddy]

So PR spinning as I said. Basically, what Spencer says is as valuable as a PR talk.
As for Microsoft not supporting steam, I could say the fact that they're not releasing their games there but much more simple:
You cant add UWA to Steam the same way you can add non Steam games to Steam. You need to go throught a tedious and long process, and in the end, the Steam overlay doesnt work.

Of course it's PR talk. But that doesn't make them untrue, as you claimed.

The latter doesn't really have anything to do with supporting Steam. It's a limitation in the format and isn't specific in any way to Steam. Microsoft should be (and most likely are) grateful for Steam, since it keeps a lot of customers in the MS ecosystem.

 

[Rudimental]

I think in the context of this discussion, the difference is not meaningful

I don't know what you are trying to say. We couldn't have a discussion like this in the first place if we didn't distinguish between the technical features/limitations of UWAs and the sales practices of UWAs in a meaningful way, i.e. in a way that talking about the one is different to talking about the other.

 

[GhostTrick]

Of course it's PR talk. But that doesn't make them untrue, as you claimed.

The latter doesn't really have anything to do with supporting Steam. It's a limitation in the format and isn't specific in any way to Steam. Microsoft should be (and most likely are) grateful for Steam, since it keeps a lot of customers in the MS ecosystem.

Of course it is untrue. Or more like, it's spinned to arrange their matter. The reality was QB is coming on PC day and date and is developped at the same time. Good luck to spin on that.

The reality is Kinect has been abandonned, relegated.

The reality is Microsoft is trying to compete wIth Steam and doesnt support the platform in any way.

 

[TBiddy]

Of course it is untrue. Or more like, it's spinned to arrange their matter. The reality was QB is coming on PC day and date and is developped at the same time. Good luck to spin on that.

The reality is Kinect has been abandonned, relegated.

The reality is Microsoft is trying to compete wIth Steam and doesnt support the platform in any way.

It's like you didn't read my post. I don't think we will get any closer to one another, so I'll end it here by saying that you can find the answer to the above in my last post. If you have any new arguments you wish to present, let's take it to PM, since it's getting off-topic.

 

[StereoVsn]

It is true, because the difference in load results in stuttering because A) one card is being pushed at fucking 90% load and B) your frame pacing becomes a joke. All this means, in real world terms, is that my performance actually nose dives when in windowed mode. I've actually seen applications perform better with a single card in windowed mode than an SLI configuration.

Yeah, this is that "technically correct" shit again. SLI performance in Windowed Mode is pretty terrible, that's a fact. Sideloading is horse shit as for majority of users the scary warnings will result in a)Refund if possible b)No more purchases in that model.

DirectX 12 tie in to Windows Compositor is also potentially problematic, but I guess we'll see.

 

[00ich]

Also UWA is completely designed for games...

Except they forgot native OpenGL or Vulcan support.

 

[Somnid]

This is kinda arguing for the wrong thing. You do want things to become universal apps because they are portable and have a number of nice effects for usability and security. You don't want games to install all sorts of DRM bullshit, you don't want a myriad of different updaters and background processes, you want predictability for easier preservation. There are limitations though, you need to know the use cases of features to properly address them. Things like post-effects on a framebuffer are useful for color correction, f.lux style shades, disability modes etc. They should be a supported feature of the platform and implemented in a consistent and secure manner and that's what we should push for.

 

[StereoVsn]

Of course it's PR talk. But that doesn't make them untrue, as you claimed.

The latter doesn't really have anything to do with supporting Steam. It's a limitation in the format and isn't specific in any way to Steam. Microsoft should be (and most likely are) grateful for Steam, since it keeps a lot of customers in the MS ecosystem.

Ehh, no, allowing UWAs to be sold through other application stores is technically an issue that MS created. Microsoft COULD grant licenses to other stores such as Steam, Origin, GoG to sell UWAs and grant them whitelist licenses to do installs of UWAs without sideloading warnings. Microsoft would never do that, but "technically" they could .

 

[GhostTrick]

It's like you didn't read my post. I don't think we will get any closer to one another, so I'll end it here by saying that you can find the answer to the above in my last post. If you have any new arguments you wish to present, let's take it to PM, since it's getting off-topic.

I did read your post. The limitations here means they're not supporting it. As opposed to their claims. I dont know what to say more than that. Spencer says they support it, in reality they dont because they'll stop releasing games there and more than that, their UWA cant work with Steam. Sure the limitations comes with the UWA format itself... But then why such a claim ?

 

[mcrommert]

Except they forgot native OpenGL or Vulcan support.

Where are you seeing this? UWA allows packaging of C+ (what they did with rise of the tomb raider) why wouldn't it support opengl?

 

[GhostTrick]

Also UWA is completely designed for games...

Yup, smartphone games. The way the store looks, the way UWA acts. It's meant for a smartphone/tablet device.
Basically, it's trash for PC.

 

[TBiddy]

Ehh, no, allowing UWAs to be sold through other application stores is technically an issue that MS created. Microsoft COULD grant licenses to other stores such as Steam, Origin, GoG to sell UWAs and grant them whitelist licenses to do installs of UWAs without sideloading warnings. Microsoft would never do that, but "technically" they could .

According to Costia, this is not true: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=197862209&postcount=340 - that's how I understand his post at least.

I haven't seen a source for either claim, so I'll refrain from making a conclusion with regards to this.

 

[Krejlooc]

According to Costia, this is not true: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=197862209&postcount=340 - that's how I understand his post at least.

You argue for solutions you don't understand. Now we're going to be asking users to sign certificates at installation? Then what the fuck is the point of UWA and all these supposed security measures? This is such a round about and backwards way of accomplishing the current status quo.

No, this isn't a realistic or probable solution. At all.

 

[TBiddy]

You argue for solutions you don't understand. Now we're going to be asking users to sign certificates at installation? Then what the fuck is the point of UWA and all these supposed security measures? This is such a round about and backwards way of accomplishing the current status quo.

No, this isn't a realistic or probable solution. At all.

Did you miss this part of the post?

so I'll refrain from making a conclusion with regards to this.

 

[papo]

Aren't universal apps basically the same thing that we've had for Android and IOS phone for a long time? Why is it such a big surprise that people are acting like MS is doing something horrible never before seen?..smh

 

[GhostTrick]

Aren't universal apps basically the same thing that we've had for Android and IOS phone for a long time? Why is it such a big surprise that people are acting like MS is doing something horrible never before seen?..smh

Because a PC isnt a phone ?

 

[OtisInf]

Durante, great post!

 

[cakely]

Aren't universal apps basically the same thing that we've had for Android and IOS phone for a long time? Why is it such a big surprise that people are acting like MS is doing something horrible never before seen?..smh

Android and IOS run on the tiny walled gardens known as smartphones.

Most here don't want their gaming PCs to have the same restrictions as smartphones. UWP apps are a step in that direction, and that's a fine reason for Durante to have written his article.

 

[00ich]

Where are you seeing this? UWA allows packaging of C+ (what they did with rise of the tomb raider) why wouldn't it support opengl?

Last one

Plus there is no documentation about it. It's always ANGLE

 

[Durante]

Where are you seeing this? UWA allows packaging of C+ (what they did with rise of the tomb raider) why wouldn't it support opengl?

Because you cannot load arbitrary .dlls in a UWA. If you could, half of the issues would be gone.

Go get em gaf:

We already discussed this in the other thread.

But yeah, it seems like UWAs are designed for people who think that PC is "broken" and love the smartphone model.

The disconnect stems from the fact that these people are generally not PC gamers.

 

[AndyMoogle]

Go get em gaf:

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/03/tim-sweeney-is-missing-the-point-the-pc-platform-needs-fixing/

Spoiler

Sorry Pete

If you don't want a PC, don't get a PC. Get a Mac and a console instead.

 

[Fardeen]

great article! as expected from durante

 

[AndyD]

Ehh, no, allowing UWAs to be sold through other application stores is technically an issue that MS created. Microsoft COULD grant licenses to other stores such as Steam, Origin, GoG to sell UWAs and grant them whitelist licenses to do installs of UWAs without sideloading warnings. Microsoft would never do that, but "technically" they could .

Indeed. The store needs to be more open and the apps need to allow tweaking for games on PC to stay true to their roots.

 

[Poodlestrike]

UWA is, as it exists, fundamentally unsuited for serious PC gaming. If/when that changes, I think it'd be fair to go back and reevaluate. But as things stand... I can't say I disagree with anything in the OP article.

 

[JaggedSac]

Objective. Right....

Simply not true. Valve could install their certificate during steam's installation and distribute UWA's just like the windows store, without any MS gatekeeping. (My bet would be that valve wouldn't want to sign and take responsilbility for the games/software they sell on their store)
The unfair part is that the MS certificates and store come pre-installed with windows 10.

From the tests i did, I didn't actually see any restrictions on interfering with the executable at runtime. Cheat engine works, WinDbg works, and as far as i can tell dll injection works as well.
A new API will require a new set of tools. Expecting the old set of tools to work, and when it fails claiming it's impossible seems like rushing to conclusions to me.

Oh wait, he forgot to mention another very common use of this type of interoperability: malware and keyloggers. I would even argue that more people are negatively impacted by those than by the lack of an fps counter (assuming, for the sake of argument, those things are really impossible).

I see UWA as the xbox ecosystem on PC, in addition to the standard win32 API.
I can't imagine companies dumping 20 years worth of code to switch to a new, financialy unproven store/platform. And I can't see MS forcing devs to do that either, it's just not financially viable.
Maybe over a period of ~10 years, MS could decide to deprecate win32. But I expect that by then, either UWA will be changed to be more developer friendly, or it will be dumped in favor of another format (like linux's ELF, or something similar to android's VM).
I guess the biggest fear In this scenario would be that the vast majority of people wouldn't care about UWA's restrictions, and it will get adopted "as is" as standard. Personally, I don't see this happening.

Edit: UWA has it's negatives. But ithink that people are grossly over reacting.

Good post.

The biggest hurdle MS has to getting any software other than $5 apps and their own full games, is the 30% cut. No one in their right mind is going to submit to that.

 

[OmarTheHippo]

I guess I just have a hard time thinking that Microsoft isn't aware of Steam's (massive) success. And that they'd then say "OK, let's make a more restrictive version of that, force everyone to use a proprietary tool to publish software, and then slowly take Steam and GOG and these platforms people love away... and no one will care!"

They can practically ask Valve for a cup of sugar they're so close by. Lots of smart people in that part of Washington. I just don't think Microsoft is that dillusional.

But think of it from Microsoft's perspective: they don't need hardcore gamers and modders and Steam users. Not really. Every game we install from Steam helps them very little. They will still provide an avenue for games to be played on PC (UWA), and any lost revenue from the hardcore gamers "not buying Windows" gets made up by the $ they earn from storefront publishing fees that they never would have seen otherwise

Microsoft's policies don't endanger Win32, they endanger GAMING Win32. They control DirectX, the OS, and the APIs that can severely limit the Win32 gaming experience

The uproar boils down to how realistic that "can" is to "will". At best, Win32 gaming seems to have advanced despite Microsoft's disinterest and general neglect. But now that Xbox is falling behind they've taken a keener interest in Windows as a gaming platform and instead of "how can we improve PC gaming for gamers", they're asking "how can we improve PC gaming for Microsoft"

 

[Krakn3Dfx]

Go get em gaf:

http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2016/03/tim-sweeney-is-missing-the-point-the-pc-platform-needs-fixing/

Spoiler

Sorry Pete

The minute I have to resort to "sideloading" as a PC gamer to do something, I think there's a good chance I'll be done as a PC gamer, and maybe a gamer in general. I'm over 40 now, and I've been gaming on the PC since the days of Doom and 7th Guest on a 486 (Amiga before then).

I've learned to always be suspicious when Microsoft talks up some "great, new, open, innovative" system that ends up trying to take away accessibility for gamers and companies selling software on the Windows platform.

Sites were quick to praise and talk about how great MS' big "always on" and "no reselling" policies were when the Xbox One was announced, but consumer outcry was loud enough to make them put on the brakes, and we were all better for it. The same outcry should be and is happening now, but I fear it won't be loud enough this time.

 

[ClearData]

I would love for Peter to teach college courses. His essays are always so logical, thoughtful, and argue a position without becoming combative. Very good work Durante.

 

[Durante]

Microsoft's policies don't endanger Win32, they endanger GAMING Win32. They control DirectX, the OS, and the APIs that can severely limit the Win32 gaming experience

The uproar boils down to how realistic that "can" is to "will". At best, Win32 gaming seems to have advanced due to Microsoft's disinterest and general neglect. And now instead of "how can we improve PC gaming for gamers", they're asking "how can we improve PC gaming for Microsoft"

Very well said.

Objective. Right....

Yes. Objective.

All of the things I mention in the first part of the article accurately describe what will happen if you buy a game as an UWA instead of a Win32 executable, which is what that part of the article claims to describe.

You will not be able to run it in exclusive fullscreen.
Freesync will not work.
SLI and Crossfire will be less efficient, if they work at all.
Steam, Mumble, FRAPS, ReShade, GeDoSaTo, RTSS, MSI Afterburner, and so on and so forth will not work with it.
You will not be able to use your Steam controller.
Yow will have to wait longer for patches due to certification delays.

I would love for Peter to teach college courses. His essays are always so logical, thoughtful, and argue a position without becoming combative. Very good work Durante.

That's part of my job actually.

Feel free to come to my Advanced Topics in Compiler Construction lecture - starting, in fact, tomorrow.

 

[LiquidMetal14]

I've been too busy with grieving and family to keep up but this article puts things into perspective and based on that, I share the same sentiments.

Is it hyperbole? I don't think so.

Good piece on an opinion many of us share and it should inform those with little grasp on the matter.

 

[Costia]

...
Yes. Objective.
...
.

I have addressed specific points which you removed when quoting me in you reply.

Exclusive fullscreen is not a required feature by itself. It enables certain things, some of which can be implemented differently. The only actual problem is lack of "Vsync-off".
I will be very surprised if UWP won't have an adtaptive frame rate API. I dont see AMD/NVIDIA abandoning the idea.
SLI/Crossfire should work well with DX12, which UWP was built to be used with.
Yes, current Win32 API hacks won't work on non-win32 API programs.
The steam controller's software is a mess. When i ran Fallout 4 with the wireless module plugged in and the controller off - it didn't accept any input - not any of my other controlers or even keyboard, untill i unplugged it.

 

[papo]

Because a PC isnt a phone ?

I wasn't saying PC wasn't a phone or not. Durante argued that it was something that first came to their attention with UWMP which is not true since we've had that in phones before. And yes PC is a phone because a phone is a type of PC.

Android and IOS run on the tiny walled gardens known as smartphones.

Most here don't want their gaming PCs to have the same restrictions as smartphones. UWP apps are a step in that direction, and that's a fine reason for Durante to have written his article.

Those tiny walled gardens are part of the reason gaming, PCs and consoles are falling behind. Most people appreaciatte the ease of those tiny walled gardens.

I totally get that most don't want PCs to go that way, but in a way they already have the thing is we can always go around stuff like that. UWP is a move in a direction we really don't know yet.

One thing I don't get is why people think that UWP and or Xbox should be now open to everyone to do whatever they please just because it is now on PC. It is still their platform thing or whatever. Just like how developers don't want MS to tell them ow to run their thing why does everyone want to tell Ms how to run their Xbox platform.

I am all for giving it a chance and all the negativity has not base yet.

 

[Krejlooc]

I have addressed specific points which you removed when quoting me in you reply.

Your points are very unrealistic workarounds or technicalities that miss the point. "I injected a breakpoint into minecraft" does nothing for the person wanting to use VorpX right now. "Steam could sign certificates at install," yeah, and devs could start supplying source codes through Steam and let users build their own UWA executable from that, but it'll never happen.

I will be very surprised if UWP won't have an adtaptive frame rate API.

But it doesn't right now.

SLI/Crossfire should work well with DX12, which UWP was built to be used with.

But it doesn't currently.

Yes, current Win32 API hacks won't work on non-win32 API programs.

Which is a problem.

The steam controller's software is a mess. When i ran Fallout with the wireless module plugged in and the controller off - it didn't accept any input - not any of my other controlers or even keyboard, untill i unplugged it.

Well your random problem with Fallout certainly means it's ok for Steam Controller Support to be broken across the board for all UWP applications /s

 

[Costia]

Well your random problem with Fallout certainly means it's ok for Steam Controller Support to be broken across the board for all UWP applications /s

It's not a random problem with Fallout. The steam controller works by emulating a bunch of devices. It's ok if sw that is written more or less as a hack, is broken, expected even.

devs could start supplying source codes through Steam and let users build their own UWA executable from that, but it'll never happen.

You don't need the source code to sign it. You can sign the binaries.

 

[Durante]

I have addressed specific points which you removed when quoting me in you reply.

Specific points which have nothing to do with the objective part of the article.

Exclusive fullscreen is not a required feature by itself. It enables certain things, some of which can be implemented differently. The only actual problem is lack of "Vsync-off".
I will be very surprised if UWP won't have an adtaptive frame rate API. I dont see AMD/NVIDIA abandoning the idea.
SLI/Crossfire should work well with DX12, which UWP was built to be used with.
Yes, current Win32 API hacks won't work on non-win32 API programs.
The steam controller's software is a mess. When i ran Fallout 4 with the wireless module plugged in and the controller off - it didn't accept any input - not any of my other controlers or even keyboard, untill i unplugged it.

So basically, for every single point that I raise you agree that it will not work with UWAs.
Which is, in fact, the claim of my article.

Reformulating "useful tools enthusiasts depend on" as "Win32 API hacks" is valid I guess, but it doesn't change the factual state of things one iota for any gamer.

The steam controller works by emulating a bunch of devices.

Yes, the Steam controller is capable of doing that (among other working modes) which is extremely useful for gamers who want to use it in the wealth of thousands of games available on Steam.

Because, you know, it's built for gamers.

 

[Krejlooc]

It's not a random problem with Fallout. The steam controller works by emulating a bunch of devices. It's ok if sw that is written more or less as a hack, is broken, expected even.

That's not how the steam controller works, actually.

 

[cakely]

I wasn't saying PC wasn't a phone or not. Durante argued that it was something that first came to their attention with UWMP which is not true since we've had that in phones before. And yes PC is a phone because a phone is a type of PC.

That was a textbook definition of a non sequitur.

One thing I don't get is why people think that UWP and or Xbox should be now open to everyone to do whatever they please just because it is now on PC. It is still their platform thing or whatever. Just like how developers don't want MS to tell them ow to run their thing why does everyone want to tell Ms how to run their Xbox platform.

Durante is not making that argument. No one here is making that argument.

 

[AndyMoogle]

It's not a random problem with Fallout. The steam controller works by emulating a bunch of devices. It's ok if sw that is written more or less as a hack, is broken, expected even.

I always have the wireless dongle connected and I tend to use an Xbox One controller instead of the Steam Controller, but I've never had the problem you speak of. Hell, I haven't had any kind of major problems with the Steam Controller. It works great.

 

[Krejlooc]

There is severe cognitive dissonance going on when one blames hardware that works with a good 99% of all computer applications on a problem, rather than the so-called universal applications that are the 1%, writing the former off as a "hack" and the latter off as proper software.