-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
EA Exec: Sexism isn't keeping women out of the industry
- Thread starter shinobi602
- Start date
We have 5 programmers and 4 artists (One of them female). :3
Game Development is a boys club but i believe this is changing .. slowly but surely.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Haha, I guess I don't count Psychology and Sociology as part of STEM, since I don't think of them as sciences. (sorry!)
That said, the numbers skew tremendously male if you take Chemistry and Biology and look at the graduate level. It's still better than Math, Engineer, Computer Science and Physics, but it seems like women aren't able or willing to pursue grad degrees in Chem/Bio.
It's a problem that people have been trying to solve for at least a decade, if not longer. Something in our public education system is dissuading girls from the sciences and maybe starting at the junior high level, if not earlier. But knowing nothing about education outside of my own experience through that same system, I have no idea what that might be.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
Most of the female CS majors I have talked to hated programming with a passion. And I have seen very, very few. The diversity in engineering decreases significantly between Freshman and graduating year, so more work can be done there, I think.
But the industry as a whole is more diverse than engineering is. Especially in HR, advertising and PR.
But the industry as a whole is more diverse than engineering is. Especially in HR, advertising and PR.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Considering this is a global issue I would say it was entirely due to schools.
I'm not kidding. My experience has been the opposite, and I think most people would say it's more socially acceptable for a guy to be interested in videogames than a girl. That cool nerd/geek stereotype you mentioned is still largely represented by males.
yn-neko hates a cat
Banned
The two best developers I've worked with in my career up to last year were both women and one of them only fell into development because she was really good at it but actually wants (and was working towards at the time) to do art.
I imagine its something that goes back to grade school and gender stereotypes about what nerds are. From the stats I'm getting in some of these post, it doesn't seem like the tech boom is helping to improve that
I imagine its something that goes back to grade school and gender stereotypes about what nerds are. From the stats I'm getting in some of these post, it doesn't seem like the tech boom is helping to improve that
In computers, you are either a programming person or a networking person. And the few who do both really good, make really good hackers or anti hackers.
I didnt like my Cisco class while I loved any programming classes.
Might go for a programming course in University next fall in fact.
walking fiend
Member
In our department, Mechanical Engineering, we only have 2 Canadian grad students and like 5 woman in total among like 60 people; so yeah, the problem is definitely not sexism; unless you want to say the Canadian schools are also racist toward Canadians...
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Are women in Japan not encouraged to go into the sciences as well? I have no idea what the demographics of a typical Japanese tech company would be.
I think since the rise of Indie, and the fact that being a hipster is being cool, The age we live in really embraces the geek/nerd model in terms of female demography.
Grand Funk Carwash
Banned
Aren't the majority of artists on contract anyway? Can't see too many games where continued art support is needed.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Well talking more of the maths divide with sciences like biology and checmistry that are so close you would get some variation. But all stats I've seen about maths based course seem to be heavily skewered to males.
We'll just have to agree to disagree there then. I don't see that the case at all. Yeah, the nerd/geek stereotype is repped by mostly males but there aren't any barriers even cultural which is stopping young girls from playing video games.
There might be some genetic disposition at play. Games are mostly violent and just may appeal to young boys more than they do young girls. But with that factor aside, I've never seen any case of females being looked down upon for embracing gaming. Maybe 20 years ago, but not now. Quite the contrary.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
It can't be that all women around the world hate math or something. Someone needs to figure that out quickly.
What do they do wrong though? I can't speak for other countries, but here there have been many incentives for women to pursue male dominated engineering courses. Yet there are very few women in CS, EE and ME for example.
I can't really see what can be done. Then again, I'm not a woman, so I haven't experienced any discrimination they might have.
Scientist females are more in Bio and all that, but I see tons and tons of female in Accounting. Maybe its just the pay though. Also, the University of Montreal wildest parties are from the accounting. They rent an island in Montreal and they party for two days.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Business is not a science.
There are uni's which offer bachelors of sciences in business administration, finance and accounting though.
I agree that doesn't make the field a science.
Business is not a science.
I was more talking how accounting, which include loads of math, have a lot of female students right now. But yeah, Science wise, there is a lot of female too. Mostly in Biology and stuff like that.
On NHK, I watched a female show host interview one of the guys who worked on an anime called Robotics;Notes. When he got into some technical terms, she just replied with "We women don't understand that stuff" while laughing about it.
That was kind of off-putting.
lol what math? Just addition and subtraction with probably some basic algebra at best.
idlethreats
Member
I'm not sure if you just haven't been paying attention, but it doesn't take a lot of Google fu to find the many hundreds, if not thousands, of testimonials out there from women and girls who've experienced, and continue to experience, sexism and harassment in geek/gaming communities. #1reasonwhy was just the tip of the iceberg. I mean, just try looking up the whole "fake geek girl" thing that's been going around over the last few months. It's pretty pervasive, but it's possible that you just haven't seen it because, if you're not a woman or a girl, you're less exposed to it because it's not directed at you.
SapientWolf
Trucker Sexologist
But reading an engineering book is no less nerdy than reading an anatomy book or a psychology book. Women, as a whole, do better in school, especially in reading and writing. And the gender ratio in college favors women.The two best developers I've worked with in my career up to last year were both women and one of them only fell into development because she was really good at it but actually wants (and was working towards at the time) to do art.
I imagine its something that goes back to grade school and gender stereotypes about what nerds are. From the stats I'm getting in some of these post, it doesn't seem like the tech boom is helping to improve that
Principate
Saint Titanfall
It's true I was surprised at the level of "maths" needed for an accounting degree. e.g in the UK a levels I was expecting most universities to require an a level in maths, most are fine with GCSE's (GCSE math is the easiest thing you can do maths wise).
There are certain types of projects that are art-dominated, but it's not true for industry at large - especially with advent of online-services as the dominant component of business models.Visualante2 said:
My current studio which is reasonably large (200+) has a relatively even headcount split between tech/creative/management.
As far as creative jobs go - I wouldn't say they lack women at all - in fact certain fields tend to have more women than men IME.
Undoubtedly impacts the overall numbers.Kazerei said:
I do want to argue here though - that people that are really passionate about their field(which is what game industry likes to portray developers as) tend to cultivate their interest outside of external influence. Personally I was raised with primarily art background and in social-atmosphere that shunned computers in general, let alone have an understanding how important they would become once I grew up, and I ended up in programming regardless.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
There are plenty of women who are picking up STEM, they just seem to end up going towards other science majors instead of engineering at the university level. Many go into life sciences or a hard science like chemistry and either go on to grad school to become researchers or take the med school route.
Japanese female tend to act very oblivious and ignorant about stuff. From my experience, they act like I am the most interesting guy and know-it-all when it comes... to stuff and I don't.
I think its just a cultural thing.
spandexmonkey
Banned
I knew a woman who was trying to get a degree in CS, but her family was against it. They wanted her to get married. When I wanted my CS degree, my family gave me support and money. Wonder how that played out.
You're literally going to find everything on the internet. I'm just talking from experience and I've been a part of lot of gaming social clubs, in school, in my uni's. From my experience, I've never detected sexism. Females in my uni's social club who easily make friends and find good people to play with.
I'm also pretty active in competitive gaming, have lead and been part of clans online. Females were always welcome and well respected on the forums and clans.
Yeah the whole fakegamergirl thing is stupid, and I've only seen it in twitter so far. But if you are a female and truly are a gamer, that shouldn't be bothering you, unless you're being stalked by males who call you fake. Is that happening with you?
Sure but its still math. Its not a Math degree, but still, if you dont like math, you probably dont want to deal with it all day. Its mostly a gestion job (My father have a Master in accounting), but you are required to do math on the fly.
I don't think it has to do with the gender, but with the family principle. My mum would not let me study Computing and I am a male.
jim-jam bongs
Member
As a programmer I can attest to the fact that women are in the minority in my field, but I believe that it's at least partly caused by women not being encouraged at a young age to explore computing in general. The best IT professionals are people who have a genuine passion for technology which usually begins at a young age; my folks were journalists so I was using computers from the time I could talk, and I know that is a big part of why I do what I do today.
All the best female devs I've worked with had a similar experience, so I think this exec is right on the money. I just found out that my girlfriend is pregnant, and if we have a daughter I fully intend to give her all the options available so that she doesn't grow up thinking that some things are for boys and others for girls.
All the best female devs I've worked with had a similar experience, so I think this exec is right on the money. I just found out that my girlfriend is pregnant, and if we have a daughter I fully intend to give her all the options available so that she doesn't grow up thinking that some things are for boys and others for girls.
XiaNaphryz
LATIN, MATRIPEDICABUS, DO YOU SPEAK IT
Isn't that sort of thinking part of the problem to begin with?
MMO communities are great, but there's plenty of stories of women being more heavily targeted and made to feel unwelcome when playing competitive fighting and shooting games.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
Oh boy.
I've seen MSes in Business actually, so... yeah, I guess you're right. lol
I know that there's math in accounting... but they're not solving partial differentials are trying to find isomorphisms between fields or whatever.
zero shift
Banned
First off the "half of all gamers are women" bit bothers me. Yes half of all gamers are women but most of them play games casually ala Angry Birds or Diner Dash. You'd be lucky to get The Sims in there as well. Yes you can say the same about men but there are definitely more male "hardcore gamers" than there are women.
This is a major part of it. Few women wants to be seen "in the pants" and no guy wants to seem effeminate. While I believe men and women are likely to enjoy and being interested in some different things I feel that they should chase women in fields that they'd be more interested in. Like mesh Biology with health and Chemistry with the Environment. I recall a study in which that boys and girls like science about equal, the difference was what they were interested within those sciences.
Also as much as it pains me to say there may be something genetic that would make women less ambitious then men. Is it to the degree of 20 cents out of the dollar? I highly doubt it, however I doubt that any recognizable gap would ever completely close.
This is a major part of it. Few women wants to be seen "in the pants" and no guy wants to seem effeminate. While I believe men and women are likely to enjoy and being interested in some different things I feel that they should chase women in fields that they'd be more interested in. Like mesh Biology with health and Chemistry with the Environment. I recall a study in which that boys and girls like science about equal, the difference was what they were interested within those sciences.
Also as much as it pains me to say there may be something genetic that would make women less ambitious then men. Is it to the degree of 20 cents out of the dollar? I highly doubt it, however I doubt that any recognizable gap would ever completely close.
zombiecyborg
Neo Member
Is it just me, or is a lot of the referenced evidence for/against sexism in the industry just completely off? Yea, they could be a symptom, or they could be completely unrelated.
A lot of the issues of sexism in the games industry to come up have little to do with the actual hiring process (though some of those popped up, too) or availability of workers, directly. At least, in my opinion. The main complaints I've heard are the repeated, often negative, perceptions of women and their "role" in the industry.
Things like...
I think in general, the sexism that seems to be floating around is subtle and very deeply ingrained into everyday behavior - it doesn't seem like sexism because it seems normal. But some of the inherent actions, words, and images in the game industry are sexist, and denying that it exists or saying, "Hey women, starting doing something!" doesn't really help that particular part of the issue.
TLDR; It's not necessarily blatant woman hating.
A lot of the issues of sexism in the games industry to come up have little to do with the actual hiring process (though some of those popped up, too) or availability of workers, directly. At least, in my opinion. The main complaints I've heard are the repeated, often negative, perceptions of women and their "role" in the industry.
Things like...
- Failure to represent noted women in the industry at industry panels on noted individuals (only men)
- Presumptions that other parts of a woman's life will interfere with her ability to do her job (pregnancy, namely)
- Constant reiterations that male audiences are predominant, though this isn't true anymore, and that therefore, games and game content should be catered to men (male fantasies vs well, general fantasies, I guess)
- And finally, a big complaint that popped up during #1reasonwhy: even if you're in the industry, people seem to assume you're a secretary or unimportant/not contributing the to development process.
I think in general, the sexism that seems to be floating around is subtle and very deeply ingrained into everyday behavior - it doesn't seem like sexism because it seems normal. But some of the inherent actions, words, and images in the game industry are sexist, and denying that it exists or saying, "Hey women, starting doing something!" doesn't really help that particular part of the issue.
TLDR; It's not necessarily blatant woman hating.
jim-jam bongs
Member
This always strikes me as an odd point which people raise a lot in these discussions. Most of the audience for action films is male, does that mean women don't work in the film industry? Or conversely does the fact that most romantic comedies are enjoyed by a predominantly female audience mean that men don't?
idlethreats
Member
You're extrapolating very broad generalizations from your limited experience. And by "limited," I mean, 1. You are only one person and thus only have one person's experience and 2. If you're not a woman or a girl, there's a lot that you've simply never experienced by virtue of your gender. That's why I am suggesting that you familiarize yourself with what more women have to say about the subject, instead of just relying on your own personal experience or what's limited to your social circle. You might not be "detecting' sexism because it's not directed at you, so you're not used to seeing it or recognizing it. Your experience is valid and should not be discounted, ofc, but it's only one very small part of the picture.
I mean, "you're literally going to find everything on the internet." So? Does that make these experiences somehow invalid or unworthy of consideration? You talk about your competitive gaming experiences being positive, friendly spaces for women as though it's a universal truth for all female gamers, and it's unfortunately not. Have you forgotten about the Cross Assault controversy from last year?
1. Yes, it's happened to me. It's literally happened to every single female geek that I know IRL, so that's several dozen women at least.
2. If I wasn't a real gamer, why on earth would I bother posting here.
3. Who are you to determine what should or shouldn't bother someone when they're being harassed? Why not practice empathy instead?
EDIT:
Got a citation for your claim?
zombiecyborg
Neo Member
Actually, MMO gamers are a great example of a rather evenly split gender demographic. And, MMO gamers are often considered hardcore - they spend a lot more time and investment in playing a game than your average console player, and definitely more than your average mobile player.
Despite that, iOS & Mobile platform games have some of the highest grossing profits in the games industry - even if the majority of "casual" mobile gamers are women, they clearly still monetize and are worth targeting. I don't really get the derisive attitude that seems to pop up for "casual" versus "hardcore" gamers. In the end, it's the bottom line that matters.
You've been playing in some other parts of the internet than I have.
The number of women I've ever run into playing any fps game is tiny. There were/are a few publicly visible female clans, but they're a tiny, tiny minority, and I can't even remember the last time I heard a woman over voice chat in a nightly game of Halo or CoD or whatever (and if I did, the results were usually ugly, to put it mildly).
Maybe in RTS games, hard to say, a lot less voice chat in those.
Fighting games? Yeah. We saw very publicly how well they treat women in that scene recently.
Not competitive, but MMOs? I can't count the number of people I had to ruthlessly punt for being complete fucking asshats when women were around. They were randomly fawning and obsequious to the point of revulsion, actively sexist in a really repugnant manner, or otherwise displayed a royal lack of social skills of even the most basic sort. (To be fair, a good number of those are people I would punt anyway because they were annoying to interact with even in a group of guys - women just pushed them over the edge into intolerable).
I will say that I interacted with a few (few) guilds who had very active female members who were great to play with and had something closer to gender balance, but those were very rare, and tended to be either smaller guilds, or guilds with family involved (husbands or literal family).
Anyway, that aside, I do agree that there are far larger issues of sexism in our society as a whole, right down into gender role perceptions and colored toys as children that have all sorts of longlasting effects on the development and life choices that women make.
It's not so simple as there being overt sexism towards women in the games industry - if they're not inclined to get the degrees and get a job in the industry in the first place, they're never even going to have to put up with any sexism that might (does) exist there in the first place.
As for games women like to play - if the games are made by a sausage fest of creators, is it any wonder that women don't enjoy playing them?
We know from a lot of studies that a ton of women enjoy playing games - they just don't generally enjoy playing the same hyper competitive ultra violent games that teenage boys love, and that are the darlings of the industry as a whole (an industry driven by and sold to men for many of the biggest titles - though thankfully not all).
I think there are probably a good number of things that can be done to encourage more women to get into game development, but I think there are a hell of a lot of other things that need to change to make that happen naturally, few related to anything in the games industry directly.
If you want to change some of them yourself, look around you and see how you and others around you treat women in your day to day life. Then raise your daughters right and encourage your sisters
(My SO, who is very much not a gamer says: I see few games I find interesting, and the fact that they have 'cooking' and 'shopping' games as my 'female' options is rather insulting)
Most of the female gamers I know, either play MMO's, Metroidvanias, Final Fantasy, Smash Bros, Gears of Wars ...
So yeah, my mother is a Hardcore Casual gamer. She play up to 13 hours a day with Match 4 games, and Hidden object. She still play for 13 hours. So she's hardcore in my book.
Fake geek girls.
Nerds/Geeks/Whatevers are extremely defensive against women "invading" their hobbies.
I do not know any female gamer who was "rejected" or said "Dah you're just a girl" over a game. I played video games, Magic, Yugioh and D&D with girls and I never saw any girl who felt not welcome into the group. Hell its even the other way around I would say. Guys always like to have at least one women while playing boards games or video games. Least of a sausage fest in those cases and it bring a new perspective to the play in games like Munchkin or D&D where being a girl or a boy can change the game.
zero shift
Banned
There is nothing genre exclusive to film buffs. Actually both action and romantic comedies are the definition of "casual films". Now if you look at films nominated for the Oscars you'll find a more even split between the sexes. My entire point was that people who have gaming as a hobby and passion aren't going to be women.
What kind of MMOs? And MMOs really aren't that popular in the West when compared to other genres.
You're mother isn't a typical person that plays video games. Hell I've met people in their 70s that play the latest core hits, doesn't mean that there are an equal amount of hardcore gamers in their 70s as there are in their 30s.
idlethreats
Member
Are you saying that your experience trumps mine? Okay then.
Ghost_Protocol
Member
Psychology is not a STEM major.
jim-jam bongs
Member
Perhaps we define casual differently with regard to games, because I'd say Call of Duty, Halo and Uncharted are about as casual as it gets. So then I defer to idlethreats and ask where are you getting your numbers?