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EA v EDGE GAMES, the Aftermath. Thread of the Decline and Fall of Tim Langdell

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phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
So what is he facing as punishment ? A massive fine ? Jail time ? What are the specifics of what awaits him ?

This isn't a criminal trial, so punishment as such doesn't come into it.

I think it it overwhelmingly likely that (most of) his US trademarks bill be cancelled on completion of this case.

It is possible that he will also be declared a vexatious litigant, which willl severely hamper his chances of playing this sort of game again.

It is possible that criminal charges will follow for, amongst other things, perjury, fraud, blackmail - which might lead to jail time.
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Langdell forgot to include a certificate of service on yesterday's motion (and I wasn't going to be the one to mention it to him).

Looks like he noticed though, because he filed it again today this time with a certificate attached.
 
@phisheep: Thanks again for the updates, and a question:

How likely would it be for EA/Future to sue Tim for damages and legal fees?

I know he doesn't have the money to pay any type of settlement, but wouldn't it be beautiful to know his wages would be garnished for the rest of his life? The money would be trivial to those two companies, but I wonder if they'd do it just to be vindictive.

And thanks to Dubya, court judgments can't be discharged via bankruptcy (if I remember correctly).
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
How likely would it be for EA/Future to sue Tim for damages and legal fees?

Unlikely at this stage I think. Future have already sued, won and settled in the UK and they can't really claim anything off Langdell in this case as they are, at least nominally, on the same side. And EA settled with EDGE in the District Court. So I don't think there's much scope for additional damages from this case. That's not to say there mightn't be others.
 

wetflame

Pizza Dog
To me, the best part of this is that no matter how long it drags on, no matter how much nonsense Tim Langdell throws at the courts, EA are just continuing on. They won't drop it, and the more that Langdell realises that the more flustered and desperate he must be getting. They have the money and the patience to see this through, and although it's taking a hell of a lot longer to get to that point than it could, it seems like an inevitability that it'll end with Landgell quite rightly put in his place. It's fascinating.
 

ymmv

Banned
All I hope is that Future Publishing and others go after Langdell after his trademarks are declared invalid. Future publishing paid Langdell a shitload of money so they could keep using the name Edge for their magazine. If Langdell's claim to the Edge trademark was fraudulent, they should should get back their money and then some. There were other publishers who paid Langdell off, there were publishers who had to rename their game and go to additional expense.

Langdell must have made a number of enemies with his blackmail schemes. I hope those chickens come home to roost.
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Since the main action seems to be drawing to a close, I thought I would start to rummage round for loose ends. And I found a curious thing.

It may turn out to be nothing relevant, but it is curious nonetheless.

You see, there's another company called Edge Games in California. That's Edge Games LLC (as distinct from Langdell's Edge Games Inc). Strangely enough, though it has been around since about 2005 it appears not to have been pursued by Langdell (unlike everyone else with Edge anything) - the curious case of the dog that did not bark in the night sort of thing. It has something of a propensity for trying to register trademarks too. I've had a look at its place of business (thanks, Google Earth!) which is a two-story 1874 mansion in Lakeport CA. I've even had a look inside its place of business thanks to online real estate agents, and it is utterly completely empty. It went on sale 7 days ago for about $300,000.

Like I said, this may be nothing, but it is definitely odd. I shall rummage some more.
 

Anton668

Member
Since the main action seems to be drawing to a close, I thought I would start to rummage round for loose ends. And I found a curious thing.

It may turn out to be nothing relevant, but it is curious nonetheless.

You see, there's another company called Edge Games in California. That's Edge Games LLC (as distinct from Langdell's Edge Games Inc). Strangely enough, though it has been around since about 2005 it appears not to have been pursued by Langdell (unlike everyone else with Edge anything) - the curious case of the dog that did not bark in the night sort of thing. It has something of a propensity for trying to register trademarks too. I've had a look at its place of business (thanks, Google Earth!) which is a two-story 1874 mansion in Lakeport CA. I've even had a look inside its place of business thanks to online real estate agents, and it is utterly completely empty. It went on sale 7 days ago for about $300,000.

Like I said, this may be nothing, but it is definitely odd. I shall rummage some more.

a quick(very) google came up with this..

http://science-fusion.com/

which lead to this....

http://science-fusion.com/contact.htm

Science fusion® Contact Page



Tim tim@science-fusion.com

probably nothing but its almost too coincidental at this point...
 

Anton668

Member
Let's not leap to conclusions, since there's this page which says



Different Tim.

But on the other hand, the plethora of (TM) and (R) marks all over the page looks distressingly familiar.

yeah, sry if I came across as "ITS HIM!!!" lol.

but it was funny the first link I pulled up lead me to the name Tim.

ETA: you would think at this point anyone with the name Edge in any form of gaming would be like - "yeah, Tim, we're gonna have someone else be our contact for now. k?"
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister

I think we'd best stop this line of speculation right here. Indications so far after a bit more rummaging is that these guys are real and legit and so far as I can tell unrelated to anything Langdell is doing - that's from a little substantial research and a bit of circumstantial evidence.

EDIT: Not picking on you Anton - it was me that started it! (I just couldn't be arsed to type the URL in again)
 

Anton668

Member
I think we'd best stop this line of speculation right here. Indications so far after a bit more rummaging is that these guys are real and legit and so far as I can tell unrelated to anything Langdell is doing - that's from a little substantial research and a bit of circumstantial evidence.

see reply above
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
There's been a bit of movement at the TTAB. All the things that usually say "paper submitted" have had their titles updated to reflect the contents.

Usually this means we are a few days away from a ruling of some sort. Fingers crossed.
 

gabbo

Member
There's been a bit of movement at the TTAB. All the things that usually say "paper submitted" have had their titles updated to reflect the contents.

Usually this means we are a few days away from a ruling of some sort. Fingers crossed.

I'm going all in that Langdell submits something, anything, to buy more time.
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
He's all out of stuff. If that last filing is the best he has (and it seems it is all he has in the locker) then it is probably game over. If Langdell is going to survive this bit he needs to come up with something new that hasn't been rejected already.
 
tim to the board - "Here is a stick figure drawing of my dog. Please look at it for a few months. kthx, Tim"

Furthermore, note that my stick-figure doggy is EDGE-y, and therefore is proof that all of my trademarks are valid.

Oh, and it ate all of my previous paperwork, so can I start over from scratch?
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
tim to the board - "Here is a stick figure drawing of my dog. Please look at it for a few months. kthx, Tim"

I have a horrible sinking feeling that that might work. Being as there's no legal precedent for it and suchlike.
 

gabbo

Member
He's all out of stuff. If that last filing is the best he has (and it seems it is all he has in the locker) then it is probably game over. If Langdell is going to survive this bit he needs to come up with something new that hasn't been rejected already.

And that's exactly what he'll do. It won't make a lick of sense or have any legal standing, but by god he'll submit it
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Here we go again again!

Langdell has submitted yet another motion which, apart from being untimely and probably an improper surreply, and doing things it should not be doing at this stage like raising new evidence (or should that read "new" "evidence"), is also gigantic at 78 pages.

Chances are it is rubbish too. It'll take me a while to disentangle it though - but luckily the shop is shut today so I'll have a bit of time.

Watch this space (if you are so inclined).
 

wetflame

Pizza Dog
Colour me surprised. You are a braver man than most to wade into that insanity, hopefully it's worth the effort, if just for us all to shake our heads sadly at the nonsense spouted.

Good luck getting through it all! Will await your comments with bated breath.
 

Veezy

que?
Is it too late to switch sides and cheer on Langdell for irritating EA?

Look, EA sucks. But at least they're a corporation. At least they serve a purpose to exist and make a product. They have employees that depend on that job. They provide benefits, enrich the world somewhat. Tim is, when you boil it down, is living off the fact he trademarked a word. He has taken a word away from us. Unless I'm understanding it wrong, he's an all around terrible person.

In this fight, EA is the good guy, by far. A good guy with a face I'd like to punch, but still the good guy.
 

gabbo

Member
Here we go again again!

Langdell has submitted yet another motion which, apart from being untimely and probably an improper surreply, and doing things it should not be doing at this stage like raising new evidence (or should that read "new" "evidence"), is also gigantic at 78 pages.

Chances are it is rubbish too. It'll take me a while to disentangle it though - but luckily the shop is shut today so I'll have a bit of time.

Watch this space (if you are so inclined).

Is he using my posts as a guideline? Hmmm. With great power [on the internet] comes no responsibility....
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
This one here.

It's not worth going through in a lot of detail.

The first 23 pages (the main body and Exhibit A) are an extended and repetive attempt to claim, yet again, that the District Court’s order was “void on its face” and must be ignored. It’s pretty well the same argument that Langdell used in his motions of 18th March and 19th March, and before that on and off since 29 Sept 2011. It’s not any better an argument now than it was then.

Pages 24-44 are a large rant about EA and Future allegedly conspiring to buck the court system in order to steal Langdell’s trademarks. The words “outrageous”, “Machiavellian”, “deeply dishonest” all loom large in the first couple of paragraphs. “Wholly disingenuous” doesn’t make an appearance for another 14 paragraphs – but you get the drift.

In the course of this Langdell digs up a bunch of the Chaosedge evidence that was used by EA and asserts in each case that the documents he presented to the USPTO were genuine, that EA and Future perpetrated fraud and photoshop amongst other things to falsify evidence against Langdell, and that Judge Alsup was royally duped by the whole thing into believing that Langdell was a trademark troll (which Langdell says is a fiction entirely cooked up by EA and Future).

One thing he doesn’t mention at all is why, if all this evidence was so verifiably false and cooked up against him, he agreed to settle the District Court action entirely to his own detriment rather than taking it to trial.

There is no answer to that. Not one that is in any way convincing.

Along the way (footnote 1 to page 29) he repeats the claim – which he probably even believes by now so often has he said it – that the District Court order confirmed the validity of Edge’s common law trademark rights in the US (and so, by extension, that the whole embarrassing collapse of the case was a “victory” for Edge). The order did no such thing, it did say that any common law rights that Edge might have were not being removed, but that says nothing at all about their validity (or even about their existence).

The remaining 6 exhibits comprise some heavily-redacted emails and witness statements from Future; some prints from the Edge website; some stuff about the Mobigame settlement; some more redacted witness statements and a bunch of irrelevant stuff from the UK courts.

It’s a whole heap of unmitigated tripe. Well, there are a few potentially interesting nuggets buried in there but nothing that makes his legal arguments any good and nothing that I can be bothered to winkle out right now.

Oh well, let’s see what happens.

EDIT: I forgot to mention that somewhere buried in all that there's a pretty blatant threat to take this to appeal if the Board doesn't go Langdell's way. I'm pretty sure that is an empty threat, being as he has no legs left to stand on and would need a proper lawyer who would be obliged to tell him so.

EDIT AGAIN: I just realised there is a self-contradiction in Langdell's argument here. It is a lynchpin of his attempt to pursue this "void on the face of it" mislogic through the Board rather than the District Court that there is no legal way through the courts to obtain relief from a void judgment (allegedly) - not through reference to the court that made the order, not by appeal, not any way. So what makes him think an appeal would work then? By his own logic it wouldn't. On the other hand he cites in his support a few Supreme Court judgments. How does he think they got to the Supreme Court eh? By appealing, that's how. But if an appeal can work, it means he's wrong about there being no legal redress, and that the Board is right about being bound by the District Court order in the meantime. Ha! Get out of that one!
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Oh dear. He’s filed yet another one.

This motion is snappily titled “Request for clarification/explanation of the Board’s inconsistent, unexplained and seemingly clearly wrong decisions”. That’s probably not the greatest way to get the court on your side for starters.

It does seem, though, that for the first time Langdell is trying to deal in his own inimitable way with the prospect of losing this case. It’s worth perhaps quoting para 1 in full to see where he is coming from:

Judging by the tenor of the Board’s Order of March 8, 2013 (Docket #84), it would seem possible that the Board is about to make decisions – or recommend that the Director make decisions – that will be unjust, unfair and contrary to both legal precedent and law. If so, then this case may become a landmark one, which will go forward to the Court of Appeals and referenced for decades to come as an example of the Board vacillating on its decisions and (should it happen) acting on a Court Order that it knew was void on its face and thus invalid. Should that happen – should this matter need to go forward to the Court of Appeals – EDGE asks that the Board please consider giving some degree of explanation for its sudden unexplained reversals of its decisions, and the unexplained inconsistencies in the Board’s decisions, so that the Appeals Court and the parties will not be left speculating why the Board made the decisions that it did.

You see that sense of self-aggrandisement there? Sure, he may lose the wreckage of the EDGE empire that he so lovingly built upon sand, but he’ll be the star turn in a landmark appeal case that will shake the USPTO to its roots and echo down the decades.

It’s bollocks of course. He’d need a lawyer, and no sane lawyer would take this on and even the insane ones might cavil at Tim’s propensity to not pay people. But he’s got to keep the merry-go-round turning because when it stops it is the Feds next up. Take his foot off the accelerator and the whole bus explodes.

He’s querying four decisions. The first three are uninteresting: the Board’s reversal of its previous decision to reverse Langdell’s voluntary surrender of 3105816, the Board’s denial of Langdell’s attempt to withdraw surrender of 3559342, the Board’s refusal to reverse the division of 2219837 between Edge and Future. They are uninteresting because they are now not relevant to the outcome of the case. If the Board were to explain itself further all it would do is give Langdell ammunition for appeal (in practical terms of course, being as it is Langdell, that only means giving him more rope to hang himself with eventually).

The fourth is interesting. He’s querying a decision that the Board has not yet made – the decision to remove his trademarks in compliance with the District Court order. Here it is:

Last, while EDGE sincerely trusts that the Board is not about to act on the void District Court order, or permit/advise the Director to act on the void Court Order, should either the Board or the Director act on the void Order then EDGE respectfully requests that the Board or the Director explain that decision clearly so that the parties and the Court of Appeal will not be left to speculate why a clearly void order was acted on contrary to law, and contrary to numerous Supreme Court and Appeals Court rulings stating that no party that has reasonable basis to believe a court order is void on its face should act on it

It’ll be a simple explanation this one. There’s a court order and we are complying with it.

And in that final sentence, Langdell again manages to mangle the law in his favour – that bit about “reasonable basis to believe” is just made up. He won’t get away with it.

If the Board has any sense of humour at all, they will just deny this and Tim’s previous three motions in a footnote.

I think EA and Future can rest easy with this, as it looks like Langdell's avenue for appeal will be against the Board, and EA and Future won't be needed.
 
I don't know what it says about that we're essentially watching from the sidelines with banners and foam fingers.

I don't think it says anything bad about us that we want a guy who's pretty much made a living out of screwing over other people or companies to get a dose of justice. We're not calling for his head or anything. I think many of us will be satisfied if he's rendered unable to keep doing that.

I think what's sad is how long it's taking, and how uncertain it seems to be.
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
I don't know what it says about that we're essentially watching from the sidelines with banners and foam fingers.

It says that we know a good spectator sport when we see one. Even if it is even slower than cricket.
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
Phisheep.

Are you SURE that Langdell reads this thread?

Because clearly he is not paying attention to anything that you are posting. If he did, he would have given up by now. The guy has just gone completely off the rails now.
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
Phisheep.

Are you SURE that Langdell reads this thread?

Because clearly he is not paying attention to anything that you are posting. If he did, he would have given up by now. The guy has just gone completely off the rails now.

Absolutely certain that he read it at least once (because he very rapidly submitted an amended motion correcting an error I had pointed out), and I suspect that he still does. If I were him, I would too.

However, he's probably a little wary of any advice I might appear to give him being as I fairly obviously not a great fan of his. I could be leading him up a dark alley in order to be mugged. Actually I'm not doing that at all - sometimes I withhold comment where it might help him, but any comment I do make or tactics I suggest are the same as I would advise him if I were his lawyer. Chances are he doesn't believe that though, he does have his paranoid moments apparently.

It does seem odd that he perversely goes for the least-favoured option every time, but that's his fault not mine.



By the way, someone at the USPTO has been keeping an eye on the case - the descriptions of the latest two motions have been updated on the docket already. That's unprecedently speedy; they're definitely gearing up for something.
 

gabbo

Member
Phisheep.

Are you SURE that Langdell reads this thread?

Because clearly he is not paying attention to anything that you are posting. If he did, he would have given up by now. The guy has just gone completely off the rails now.

I would swear he's taken a few of my "He'll submit something" posts (and there have been a few since phisheep started this thread) as all the incentive he needed to submit some of the letters/etc he's sent in. The time lines match up, and they make about as much legal sense as something I myself would submit (eg none).

It says that we know a good spectator sport when we see one. Even if it is even slower than cricket.
True enough :). But this truly will be a win for the fans if it ends up going as we all assume/believe it will. Good to hear the USPTO is getting around to things now.
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
I would swear he's taken a few of my "He'll submit something" posts (and there have been a few since phisheep started this thread) as all the incentive he needed to submit some of the letters/etc he's sent in. The time lines match up, and they make about as much legal sense as something I myself would submit (eg none).

Probably just coincidence. The same goes for the time he submitted a motion without the attachments, which I remarked on and he fixed - he might well just have noticed that himself.

The only one I'm absolutely certain of was when he immediately modified his first motion about the District Court judgment being void, since he clearly had no other legal advice available at the time (or he'd never have put the motion in) and submitted the revised motion too fast to have consulted a lawyer. (see posts #296-#317 in this thread for what was happening at the time)

It wasn't quite immediately but very nearly. He filed on 29 September 2011, I responded same day and revised motions were submitted the day after. Seems pretty conclusive to me. I'm still wondering why he hasn't gotten in touch directly if I'm so handy - maybe I'll drop him an email and see what happens.
 

gabbo

Member
Probably just coincidence. The same goes for the time he submitted a motion without the attachments, which I remarked on and he fixed - he might well just have noticed that himself.

The only one I'm absolutely certain of was when he immediately modified his first motion about the District Court judgment being void, since he clearly had no other legal advice available at the time (or he'd never have put the motion in) and submitted the revised motion too fast to have consulted a lawyer. (see posts #296-#317 in this thread for what was happening at the time)

It wasn't quite immediately but very nearly. He filed on 29 September 2011, I responded same day and revised motions were submitted the day after. Seems pretty conclusive to me. I'm still wondering why he hasn't gotten in touch directly if I'm so handy - maybe I'll drop him an email and see what happens.

How close do you skirt libel laws? He does seem the type to go for the easy money.
 

phisheep

NeoGAF's Chief Barrister
How close do you skirt libel laws? He does seem the type to go for the easy money.

Oh, I overstep them quite happily - check out the first sentence of the OP for example!

But it wouldn't be easy money, far from it. He'd have to find me first, I'd seek security for costs and I've got good defenses. I've also got a long list of criminal offences with enough evidence to give probable cause sufficient for arrest, detention, seizure of papers and serious investigation on both sides of the Atlantic.

It would not be a good move.
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
Oh, I overstep them quite happily - check out the first sentence of the OP for example!

Are we talking about UK libel laws? I don't think you can get sued for libel in the US just for calling a guy a liar and a douchebag...
 
Are we talking about UK libel laws? I don't think you can get sued for libel in the US just for calling a guy a liar and a douchebag...
Well liar is a difficult one for libel as you kind of have to prove that they knew they were deliberately misleading or something. Need to read over McNaes sometime.

Though as to whether an opinion of him in the minds of right thinking people could actually be lowered... :p
 
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