I would say Wii has been the most profitable console this gen. (currently is besides the point)
Of course if you have proof otherwise ...
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Epic Reveals Samaritan Processing Requirements: 10x 360 at 1080p, (4.4x 360 at 720p)
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
I would say Wii has been the most profitable console this gen. (currently is besides the point)
Of course if you have proof otherwise ...
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Mainly the corresponding posts to others. You were civil to me.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
How were any of those posts not civil? No name-calling, profanity, nothing. Should I do a virtual curtsey after each sentence, ugh.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Its very possible. You can pull ops numbers from a damn lot of places if you strictly wanted to for PR. Perhaps you are confused of where they are getting the numbers from.
You give Nvidia too much credit lol.
http://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_21111.html?ClickID=d2khmc0ss2ochs0mbmssnwxstz2nm2cn0ymy
Hell I think they quoted the 6800 at 1TFLOP too.
Please go on how that one GPU is in any way capable of 1.8TFLOPS, I'd love to read it.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
I'm honestly just getting tired of intelligent people being written off because they have an "agenda" or a bias.
Everyone does. jvm, you, Stevie, me. Doesn't mean that bias clouds your better sense. We've seen people seriously suggest GPU variants of 580's, dual GPU setups, 8 gigs of RAM, the equivalent of 16 Cell processors.
Currently complete and utter fiction. Those of us trying to temper expectations, those of us that don't see any logical way to put that kind of hardware in a case as "small" as the first model PS3 get crapped on.
We aren't the ones limiting what's going into consoles. The tech is.
there's no room for reasonable people with realistic expectations on this forum.
Looking at the new 7770...it seems like a good base for the next generation of console GPUs. The power consumption is still a bit too high (seems to be somewhere around 100W), but within a years time a low power mobile chip with similar performance might be out. I wouldn't expect much better than that.
There's no way anyone could presume the 360 to be the most profitable console this gen. The Wii has sold at a higher profit margin, has sold more units overall, and did not have any major hardware defects.
There's no way anyone could presume the 360 to be the most profitable console this gen. The Wii has sold at a higher profit margin, has sold more units overall, and did not have any major hardware defects.
Cygnus X-1
Member
I wonder if these requirements will dictate Xbox720 and PS4's specs.....
themadcowtipper
Smells faintly of rancid stilton.
I sure MS specs have been locked down for awhile. Who knows what Sony will do, can't see them bleeding money another gen.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Well if every pixel/vertex pipeline was running at the same time and every alu in the system(including non-programmable fixed functions) was being used to 100%, you would get an insanely high number. Add some "different" counting methods, like say a multiply-add equaling two or three FLOPS, and you could easily get 1.8. Its honestly not that hard to inflate specs.
Assuming both plan to launch next year, I would expect both to have locked down specs with minimal room for adjustment.
I was hoping you could actually show specifics how specs can be inflated that much.
I can't think of any logical way to do it. Regardless none of it changes the fact that it's all bullshit.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Indeed I do. Well, what can I say - PR is a fine art. But sometimes it can turn around and bite you in the ass. Like in this fictional press release by NV's competition I just made up:
Hey, NV, your 2TFLOP (combined power) hw gets whooped by our 240GFLOP GPU. Are you incompetent or what?
; )
Seriously, just stop it. It doesn't matter. This whole thing came up because we were referring to Epic's evaluation of the 360 and what's required for samaritan. You know, what's in the OP? You said epic isn't basing that number off of the GPU when all signs indicate that they most certainly are. They cite the 360 as capable of 0.25TFLOPS, not anywhere close to over 1TFLOP.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Who the fuck are you to tell me to stop it? You weren't even in the conversation anymore. Fuck off.
Im not the guy for that job lol. I saw a post in B3D that makes sense though.
iamshadowlark
Banned
What does my tag have anything to do with here?
Shin Johnpv
Member
Gemüsepizza;35194574 said:
Except that there has been an exponential increase in power consumption with GPUs. A high end card around the time the 360 came out was a 60 - 80 watt card. Hell the X1900 GT was like a 75 watt card. Now adays a high end GPU is a 200+ watt card. That's a huge difference. You have GPUs that eat more watts than the entire original 360 or PS3. Those aren't going into next gen gaming devices. Look to the 70 - 100 watt parts for the top of what you can expect in a next gen console.
Plus we have MULTIPLE sources saying that MS's CPU and GPU for it's next gen system are already "taped" out. Which means they're done, it's basically set in stone. There's no, wait 2 years for the power draw of X card to magically get lower.
herzogzwei1989
Banned
Remember the original Xbox was rated at 80 GFLOPS, and that's NvFLops. The real number was closer to 21.6 GFLOPS according to the book Opening The Xbox page 270.
higherARC05
Banned
hmm yes rumors, like the one we were suppose to see the nextXBOX at ces.
Guess that was a good rumor.
If thats true we can expect 720 this year then, not like they are guna sit on it.
les papillons sexuels
Banned
but when you factor in xbox live and the revenue it creates for ms, attach rates and royalties the MS recieves off of games sales, and the kinect, I think the 360 has been more profitable then the wii.
higherARC05
Banned
Exactly.
These console makers don't make most of their profit from the console itself.
They make most of their earnings from software sales, like royalties from 3rd parties to sell their game on the consoles, first party games, dlc, subscriptions, etc etc.
With halo 4 coming out this year? Hell yeah they're going to sit on it. Some of you should not run a company.
Well its a different market, the majority of gamers aren't going to be early adopters anyway.
Siting on tech which is ready is just going to make it look dated when they release it.
I guess they could launch it early next year but then they are missing the holiday peroid, not that they will have enough consoles to meet demand.
Not by any metric. At all.
Read this, people. And keep in mind that you need to have a target chip in mind at least 1 year (if not more) before your system releases. Developers need time with the boxes if you want launch software. Yes, things can change - but it's not going to be massively drastic. The initial dev kits (the ones before the box is decided upon) can be quite different from the end box, but once they figure out what's going in the box there is a point of no return. You'd better believe that if the system is coming out in 2013, they're at or near that point now. The biggest thing that generally changes is stuff like clock speed and memory.
http://www.filedropper.com/xenonsystemarchitecture
That's the dev kit document from May 2004 (after multiple revisions) - I uploaded it for another thread yesterday but it applies here as well. There were lots of stuff that changed from their original vision, but the biggest changes:
Dev kits had 512mb of ddr (signaling a 256mb system). Epic propositioned them last minute, and that is well known. The system ended up with 512mb at the end.
CPU was originally going to be a 3x4ghz OoO Power4-based CPU. IBM couldn't deliver. They got 3xPPE (the one IBM designed as the main part of Cell) at 3.2ghz, in-order. Clock speed and chip power went down instead of up.
Do you have hard numbers to back up that it's not even close?
I'm not doubting but I occasionally look at the annual reports of the companies and from recent reports Microsoft has been reporting over 6 billion in profit from its games division whereas Nintendo has been posting losses.
I'd be curious if you have the total number of generated profit from the wii and wii affiliated revenue streams and the Xbox comparison.
If i rememebr right Live alone is bringing in a billion a year in profit for Microsoft.
I'm not doubting but I occasionally look at the annual reports of the companies and from recent reports Microsoft has been reporting over 6 billion in profit from its games division whereas Nintendo has been posting losses.
I'd be curious if you have the total number of generated profit from the wii and wii affiliated revenue streams and the Xbox comparison.
If i rememebr right Live alone is bringing in a billion a year in profit for Microsoft.
Shin Johnpv
Member
One rumor being wrong doesn't mean they're all wrong. The rumors about the chip being "taped" out and going into production had NOTHING to do with the ones about it turning up at CES. So what's the point?
Thunder Monkey
Banned
MS hasn't had a gaming division for years.
Makes it hard to come up with anything. We do know that Nintendo lost $900 million for the year and last tally still had the Xbox endeavor costing the company $5.8 billion?
Just remember there is a difference between revenue and profit.
I am aware of the difference and aware of their entertainment and devices sector has posted some pretty substantial profits the last few quarters. Into the billions..... Now whether that has continued for a while now or not and whether the recent surge in profits total a net gain over the 360's lifespan when weighed against the couple of years they were losing some money and just breaking even I dont know.
But that's why I was asking if he had hard numbers because I would be interested in a comparison.
-ImaginaryInsider
Member
Not to say all the rumors don't have some truth to them, but for example, what makes the "based on a 7xxx" rumor more or less valid than the "6670" rumor? Both sides have picked the rumors that suit their agenda the best and dug in.
We might not get any jaw dropping game changing revelations, but until the white sheets leak, everyone needs to keep and open mind.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
While that post does a much better breakdown of the '400.4' PR figure (I originally attributed the unaccounted 24x11 FLOP/clock to the tex-addressing co-function that half of G70's fragment ALUs carry, which was a mistake on my part - that function is not free and takes away from the ALUs programmable FLOPS; instead, turns out NV mixed together different precision FLOPs - an excellent PR job indeed), the post does not explain at all the fixed-part FLOPs. AAMOF, the original poster had to say this when asked about the fixed-part figure:
post 1
post 2
specialguy
Banned
AFAIK I havent really kept up but just by the "gaming division" totals, X360 should be at LEAST break even while Xbox lost about 4B? However the EDD division has been profitable for at least 4 years I believe and currently churning half a billion a quarter profit. Then it's likely actually Xbox 360 totals are better than division totals since the rest of EDD is likely a money loser.
So i think your 5.8 figure is way high, AFAIK it'd be 4b tops, all from the original Xbox.
But someone else could maybe speak to that better than me, I've not kept up. Also GAF stopped keeping track once Sony eliminated it's gaming division.
Somebody on B3D pointed out, a 6670 would be a ridiculous choice for a console. Whatever it is, there's no way it's that. For example, if "cheap" is the idea, the just released HD7770 is way more capable (1.28 teraflop) and has just 123mm^2 die (very tiny, like 1/3 original Xenos size, which was 337mm^2 with EDRAM included, 232mm^2 without EDRAM). So even if Microsoft was hell bent on making a piece of shit cheap console, the 6670 would be a non starter. Plus I was looking at benchmarks and the 640 SP 7770 punches above it's weight, it's usually faster than the 800 SP 5770, and I think I saw one game where it beats 1120 SP 6870.
It's almost to the point where it's impossible to build a console that isn't a nice leap.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
Hmm, isn't that precisely what people across this board have been trying to tell you?
Yes, a 1TFLOP GPU (as in actual programmable shader FLOPs, not PR FLOPs) is a viable possibility this coming gen and would be a nice 4x leap over current gen. A 2.5TFLOP GPU? Still possible but not as much (as in subject to vendor's willingness to up the ante - something which might be in short supply these days, due to a multitude of factors). At 3-4 TFLOPs and beyond, we're already looking at a pipe dream (as in get yourself a PC).
HD7770 power consumption is much lower than that, around 70 Watt under stress. Dual HD7770s would be a nice setup for Xbox and very much affordable (the GPU alone costs around $40 to produce). Price would go down quickly because they'd be ordering double the amount, higher numbers = lower price. Power consumption would still be under 200 Watt for the console and it would have 2.5 Teraflops.
It would fit with this rumour:
http://translate.google.com/transla...om/Xbox-720/Nouvelle-Xbox-CES-2012-et-GPU-ATI
IBM Power7 based 6 Cores @ 3.7 GHz
Crossfire HD7770 GPUs with 1 GB DDR5 RAM each
2 GB DDR3 RAM
500 GB HDD
Blu-ray drive
Should make for a nice console that wouldn't cost more than $500 right now and has acceptable power consumption.
Krauser Kat
Member
some much fucking stupid in this comment. Coming in at really low wattage would still be a great thing for MS. Cheaper to run, smaller box, easier to produce. Everyone in this thread wants to aim for the sky, when microsoft wants to aim for the people and have this take over there rokus, apple tvs, cable boxes and htpc. If windows tablets and windows 8 have air play like capabilities.
The xbox moving forward is a multimedia device first, game console second.
I'm talking about a dual GPU setup.
I keep hearing that but nobody seems to be able to tell me why not.
Expectation are too high, 4-5 times (1.2 teraflops) would be plenty enough and would mean MS could be profitable sooner if not from the start, 1 x 7770 would be pretty cool running aswell.
I do think 7770 would be the best choice but expecting a dual gpu configuration is asking for a bit much.
They aren't going to just throw another GPU at it just because they can. (although part of me hopes they do)
specialguy
Banned
Why all the focus on Xbox? The same reasoning would apply to all 3 then. So PS4 will be crap and Wii U will be crap, correct?
Actually nobody in this thread is aiming for the sky, a lot of us are just pretty sure there's no real evidence it wont be a beefy console. For current GPU's, lets say pitcairn level. But it wont come out till late 13 at the earliest, so I dont know that it will actually be a pitcairn.
People saying it will have decent specs are probably a lot more grounded in reality than anybody who thinks it's going to have a 6670, that's for sure.
Regardless, the 7770 is pretty exciting in the fact it shows just how much can be done on 28nm. It would be a major leap and it's about as small and cheap as possible. As somebody on B3D pointed out, it may not even be possible to die shrink a 7770 even one time, it would already be pad limited. That's tiny. 360/PS3 have already gone through two die shrinks by comparison.
Even if you think the next Playstation will be the worst console possible, it ought to be able to fit a 7770. That's my point.
Well, it's what I want them to do. I believe with all these rumours there's some truth in all of them. So I just put them all together and mix them.
cyberheater
PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 PS4 Xbone PS4 PS4
I keep hearing that but nobody seems to be able to tell me why not.
It will have a dual GPU but every game will only use one and you have to buy a DLC to unlock the second one.
specialguy
Banned
It probably wont be a dual GPU, but 7770 would be at the very lowest end of what it might be. I'd expect much more.
Plus by late 2013 it will not be a 7770 per se, there will be different GPU's by then. The next AMD generation will be around the beginning of 2013, there should be another one nearing by the end of 2013.
Krauser Kat
Member
The focus on xbox, because Microsoft is unifying all of its products and has been pushing super hard to be something for the masses to access its multimedia. If they can sell something everybody needs more that conveniently 5x more powerful than the previous xbox, awesome, the real purpose is to get people to use kinect to control their media from our box, not the apple tv or google tv or the ps3.
everyone acting like the 6770 or 7750 is not good enough for next gen, have not seen any games and are acting on an arbitary flops number that has almost no bearing on what it can really do, as not enough. When they have no idea what to expect from next generation games.
Krauser Kat
Member
Bam. High five for being sensible.
another note.
Half way through this cycle, tablets will as more powerful than the consoles, then improving every year after that. Apple can add an hdmi out dock, and wireless controllers. They just got a mobile console that can do everything the xbox can do except play dvds, and still get a 30% cut on all software sold.
iamshadowlark
Banned
so MS can't stuff an uber GPU into their next box because of heat and power consumption but whatever they "settle" for will be doable in something as tiny as a tablet 3 years later? And actually surpassed every year after? Damn, mobile tech must be advancing way faster than I thought.
So you're essentially saying that Microsoft can't put out a powerful machine because of cost and stuff like power consumption, yet those same laws don't apply to Apple? A $500 tablet will never be competition to a $200 console. And any tablet will lose much of its extra power due to higher resolutions over the next years. iOS gaming isn't even close to achieving PS360 graphics, yet you predict that it will be much more advanced than PS4/720 graphics in 2018? And you call me stupid?
Even it would remotely make sense what you say Microsoft had all the more reasons to build a powerful machine because it would be pretty much redundant by 2018 if they don't.
LOL, talk about great minds thinking alike.