Basileus777
Member
So you believe that anyone should be able to walk into a store and purchase alcohol?
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European Commission considering renaming f2p in EU, put in child protections
- Thread starter geordiemp
- Start date
So you believe that anyone should be able to walk into a store and purchase alcohol?
OminoMichelin
Member
You are basing this under the assumption that every child has a parent that's able to look after them. That's not the case, and you can't solve the issue by calling them negligent, stupid or lazy, that helps nobody.
When parents cannot complete their duties, government should absolutely try and substitute to them.That's why we have public schools.
What I'd do:
- All purchases can only be made from a separate shop, clearly labeled as such.
- You can't use pop-ups to send people to this shop. They have to go manually through a selectable menu.
- You can only spend 5 day on IAP without having to re-enter all credit card info.
- All purchases can only be made from a separate shop, clearly labeled as such.
- You can't use pop-ups to send people to this shop. They have to go manually through a selectable menu.
- You can only spend 5 day on IAP without having to re-enter all credit card info.
ComputerMKII
Banned
I believe people who are too young to be fully responsible are under the responsibility of their legal tutors, i.e. their parents. The European commission is nobody's parents and stating that X category of people is irresponsible as an excuse to implement trade regulations is dangerous.
That's even worse. I'm playing Castle Clash, it's a nice game but I'm no planning to waste any money on gems (game currency) only to have a ridiculous weak hero in a random roll.
What does it leave? Games that you buy and then play. You know, how it used to be before unsustainable product budgets became a thing.
As for whether or not its a scam model - the industry has wholeheartedly demonstrated it is incapable of making non-exploitative games with this model. Maybe there are 1-2% of these games that have avoided this trap.
pieatorium
Member
maybe we should dump money into a slot every time we die and design games to be cheap cause thats how it was back in the day too.
Sub mmos been around way longer than bloated budgets. infact they were the trailblazers in that
ihearthawthats
Banned
I can agree with having some sort of regulations, but what did people do about capsule toys, sticker books, collectable trading cards, etc?
I think the platform is a key area to target. F2p wasn't really scrutinized pre-facebook/ios afaik. People seemed just fine enjoying their maplestories and gunbounds back in the day.
So really what you want is an end to MMOs? Well I *like* MMOs.
I seriously doubt you can defend that percentage. You're looking at a handful of mobile or browser games which are targeting children and ignoring the mass of games which have got F2P right.
I put in hundreds of hours into Star Trek Online without paying a penny when it went F2P. I've yet to spend anything on Neverwinter or SWTOR since it went F2P.
The. model. is. fine! We just need better regulation about how these games are targetted.
ЯAW;102602819 said:
But a lot of these games I've seen try to hide the fact that you can spend a small fortune on them, and iOS devices, and android devices AFAIK, as well as their stores have been hesitant at warning the consumer as to how much money a person can spend on some of these titles.
I also think that just assuming that parents or guardians as lazy is wrong. I know that my Brother in Law let his daughter play a popular title on his android device about a year ago and she made some purchases, he only realised when the credit card bill came. Granted after that he made sure it could never happen again, but initially he'd assumed it was a harmless free to play game that his daughter could enjoy; and this is someone who is a very tech savvy programmer who with making that tiny mistake of not setting the correct well hidden option got stung (fortunately by only a small amount) with an unexpected bill.
It would be great if all f2p games had in big bold writing how much it would, or could cost to access everything. If a game stated that it will cost you $500+ or about 1000 hours to grind through it people would be a lot more hesitant to download them.
SneakyStephan
Banned
do it EU
DO IT
stomp fucking microtransactions/IAPS and ingame dlc begging like in nfs most wanted/dragon age origins etc into the ground
rain down on this shit with fiery pro consumer wrath
I ain't even mad about the thread being full of people defending this shit
Sir_Crocodile
Member
So you want parents to literally be with their kids 24/7
because that's the only way without regulations like this and on cigs/alco/etc
CyclopsRock
Member
I can't say this is something I care about much. I've never bought an in-app purchase myself, but I don't care if others do. It seems that this is conflating two different issues (the games not really being 'free' if you want to experience it all vs children racking up bills without realising) when they're two very different issues that just happen to both exist in the same medium here. The key difference is that one is the result of a rational adult making a decision, and the other an irrational child making one. The former is up to them, the latter need protecting, so I don't have much sympathy for the first argument. As for the latter, I think this is a change that should be made on the client end, but hey ho.
Good to see the government step in to stop such shitty practices preying on poor people with mental problem of their purchasing habits.
Not just about psychological manipulation, but how its affect the industry itself, making 90% of games designed around psychologically manipulating your audience to grab their cash.
Not just about psychological manipulation, but how its affect the industry itself, making 90% of games designed around psychologically manipulating your audience to grab their cash.
All of those you mentioned is tradeable among the enthusiast and hobbyist, and that supposed to be main part of the fun. If someone collect them but never trade with anybody, something must be wrong with the person.
FlyingSaucer
Banned
The problem is that people seems more and more fine with the idea of an authority which tell us what to think. Or spy on them. Or, basically, which reduces their liberties because a criminal could abuse them to hurt people.
That was an even worse tactic in fact. That was for rewards requiring a complete set of (otherwise worthless) items received from the lottery in order to obtain the high value items.
That's getting to the point you need a degree in statistics to work out the odds of winning, and therefore really easy to exploit"whales".
From the report:
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-14-187_en.htm
"The four most important issues raised by consumers and which will be discussed at the meetings are :
-Games advertised as “free” should not mislead consumers about the true costs involved;
-Games should not contain direct exhortations to children to buy items in a game or to persuade an adult to buy items for them;
-Consumers should be adequately informed about the payment arrangements and purchases should not be debited through default settings without consumers’ explicit consent;
-Traders should provide an email address so that consumers can contact them in case of queries or complaints."
I agree with all points, they look reasonable to me.
http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-14-187_en.htm
"The four most important issues raised by consumers and which will be discussed at the meetings are :
-Games advertised as “free” should not mislead consumers about the true costs involved;
-Games should not contain direct exhortations to children to buy items in a game or to persuade an adult to buy items for them;
-Consumers should be adequately informed about the payment arrangements and purchases should not be debited through default settings without consumers’ explicit consent;
-Traders should provide an email address so that consumers can contact them in case of queries or complaints."
I agree with all points, they look reasonable to me.
somone just paid $0.99
All of these sound reasonable and a good way to make f2p model not as scummy as it is right now.
Mostly Luxembourg or Ireland for European consumers.
petran79
Banned
shouldnt by that logic all digital games that require credit card info,whether on steam or consoles be for adults only?
This goes for ps3, wii u and xbox as well, where you are required to enter credit card info in your account.
Big change indeed. Big gaming companies were probably bribing legislators and lobbyists all those years.
Digital future indeed.
This goes for ps3, wii u and xbox as well, where you are required to enter credit card info in your account.
Big change indeed. Big gaming companies were probably bribing legislators and lobbyists all those years.
Digital future indeed.
Caayn
Member
Wasn't F2P a completely different thing before the android/ios/facebook F2P explosion? Looking at runescape for example, one of the oldest F2P games, you either play the game for free or pay a fixed monthly fee to unlock more content.
No, a lot of Chinese and Korean MMOs have been using the same type of F2P setups as modern mobile games since the early 2000's. Boosts, consumables, skins, treasure chests, separate in-game and cash shop currencies, etc.
I have no problems with F2P, regardless of the type of purchases that can be made.
This seems reasonable. Protects, but doesn't force developers to remove content from their game or change business models.
This seems reasonable. Protects, but doesn't force developers to remove content from their game or change business models.
I've seen many child-aimed iOS games which:
- Don't ask for confirmation when you press the "buy" button, so the purchase will go through automatically if you typed in your password in the past 15 minutes;
- Don't have the "buy" or "purchase" words in their "buy" buttons (saying things like "get more coins" or "upgrade this thing")
- Don't show how much the purchase will cost in the game UI.
Basically, some games do their best to hide the fact they are staring a purchase, which is shady as hell.
- Don't ask for confirmation when you press the "buy" button, so the purchase will go through automatically if you typed in your password in the past 15 minutes;
- Don't have the "buy" or "purchase" words in their "buy" buttons (saying things like "get more coins" or "upgrade this thing")
- Don't show how much the purchase will cost in the game UI.
Basically, some games do their best to hide the fact they are staring a purchase, which is shady as hell.
Was just about to post this.
About time. I can't believe industry leaders like Steam didn't proactively do this themselves, especially given that they themselves offer completely "free" games like DotA2. Now that the industry has stalled it looks like this could end up being particularly harsh where even aesthetic only optional purchase games can't be labeled as free.
I'm curious if the latter issue may also apply to consoles. Obviously most of all console titles appeal to children and games like Forza have been becoming increasingly aggressive with the pushing of their not-so-micro-transactions.
About time. I can't believe industry leaders like Steam didn't proactively do this themselves, especially given that they themselves offer completely "free" games like DotA2. Now that the industry has stalled it looks like this could end up being particularly harsh where even aesthetic only optional purchase games can't be labeled as free.
I'm curious if the latter issue may also apply to consoles. Obviously most of all console titles appeal to children and games like Forza have been becoming increasingly aggressive with the pushing of their not-so-micro-transactions.
ScepticMatt
Member
how about going back to 'shareware'?
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
I could go with a rating system where only games like DOTA 2 which restrict microtransactions to cosmetic and social items earning the right to be called "Free to Play".
Everything else, from time savers to battery cooldowns to IAP boosters, gets slapped with something that warns they are premium payment applications. And they cannot be rated for kids or teens, adults only.
Everything else, from time savers to battery cooldowns to IAP boosters, gets slapped with something that warns they are premium payment applications. And they cannot be rated for kids or teens, adults only.
I assume the term will certainly have to include something related to charging fees. The industry had a chance to responsibly regulate themselves and it's all but stupefying that they didn't. Now that the chaperons have had to come up stairs, they're not going to let the kids off with something that'll just see them having to come back up again in no time.
Basileus777
Member
Did the industry really have much of a chance to regulate itself? That regulation would have had to have come from Apple/Google, and that was never going to happen without outside pressure.
blitzcloud
Banned
You are gambling with the chance to lose (just like intead of a stat permanent item you can get a timed item. Here you'll get stuff that is sold for 4 cents at most). And in the case you win (example, knifes in cs:go), it's always going to stay in your steam wallet.
Odds in any random based algorithm should be known, when money is involved.
I don't think this was some giant conspiracy to mislead consumers by Apple/Google by labeling something as "free" when its entire purpose is to systematically coerce the player into purchasing the product (or access to the product) piecemeal, ideally for even more than a retail one-off purchase. I think as gamers we get a bit too used to the unethical antics of certain companies and publishers. Many successful companies still hold themselves to at least some level of ethical standards.
I have little doubt that Apple/Google simply felt the issue wasn't particularly urgent, but that's what really surprises me. The natural consequence of this exploitative "free" to play system is government intervention, but with any regulation comes the risk of heavy handed regulation. One speaker with any level of clout bringing this issue to the forefront at an industry expo or what not would likely have been more than enough to kick the gears into motion but it just never materialized.