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[KonradLaw]

Dude, I'm not talking about accepting migrants, I'm talking about accepting EU legislation / following a fucking court order.
.

There were cases of countries braking european law before and union survived. At most it will end up in little spanking to help EC save the face, but nobody will be breaking union based on not-fullfiling the quotas when pretty much nobody will manage to follow that law in the entire union. Even the most active countries are unlikely to reach the target by the deadline set by the deal.

 

[HighResTomato]

The EU needs to come down hard on these Eastern-European countries, they have so much more pressing corruption issues than immigration issues.

Cut their funding or even expel the ones who want to drag the EU backwards instead of going forwards.

 

[KonradLaw]

The EU needs to come down hard on these Eastern-European countries, they have so much more pressing corruption issues than immigration issues.

Cut their funding or even expel the ones who want to drag the EU backwards instead of going forwards.

The only one that does that is Poland. Everybody else with exception of Hungary is very pro-EU and accepting everything, with single exception of migrant quotas. And for Hungary, while they are limiting democracy it's all done legally and Orban tends to back down when squeezed on most issues.

The only big problem in EE for EU is Poland and nobody will do anything rash at least untill the end of 2019, as they hope the current party will loose power and everything will go back to normal, since most of society is very pro-EU, with again the exception of non EU migrants ussue.

 

[Zoon]

Imo the countries that should receive the most refugees should be those that caused the refugee crisis, mainly the US and Russia. Those are the ones that should be sanctioned if they refuse to do so.

 

[Bitch Pudding]

No, Hungary voted against it. They didn't agree to anything. They were just overruled. Poland is different matter.

The Hungarian migrant quota referendum from 2016 was invalid due to a lack of participation from voters, hence the EU proceeded with its quota plan.

 

[Ac30]

Supreme Court is supposed to rule on it 12th september.
Meanwhile Constitutional Tribunal will rule that Supreme Court can't do that a day before

Thanks, sigh

 

[RoyalFool]

Africa would be the source of economic migrants rather than refuges (for now), so they are two different issues.

The EU shouldn't be getting involved in migration at all imo and just stick to trade, let the individual countries decide if they want to help take them in.

 

[CazTGG]

I'm still of an opinion immigration quotas are an insane decision that Germany came up with after it decided to open the borders without even consulting other EU countries.

I still think it's not racism or xenophobia that drives Eastern EU countries against taking immigrants in set numbers. It's a will to keep own citizens safe.

...Except that "will to keep citizens safe" preys on the belief that immigrants, illegal or otherwise, will engage in criminal activity or pose a threat to citizens when the facts show the opposite. That's literally the reason why Trump wants to build a wall along the Mexican border and why the Reform Party in Canada used the dogwhistle of "immigration being based on Canada's economic needs" when people caught onto their anti-immigrant rhetoric and why the Conservative Party of Canada is repeating those same lines so less observant individuals don't notice.

Congratulations, you just described textbook xenophobia!

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Africa would be the source of economic migrants rather than refuges (for now), so they are two different issues.

The EU shouldn't be getting involved in migration at all imo and just stick to trade, let the individual countries decide if they want to help take them in.

the EU is already involved with migration through the dublin agreement. Just that the dublin agreement is terrible as it penalizes EU border countries but exploitable by those countries just letting refugees pass through unhindered.

A fair solution based on economic power population density etc is exaclt the kind of thing the union should be doing and the members should adhere to.

 

[witchedwiz]

less than 30,000 have so far been moved, partly through difficulties in identifying suitable candidates.

Keyword being suitable..
You have money?
Education?
Sought skillset (doctor//surgeon//lawyer//comp sci)
You're welcome!
Else? Fall in line..

This is a joke..
Poor families or those without any "suitable" knowledge are just piling up in the first support centers...
And somehow eu expect italy/Spain/Greece to accommodate those somewhere.....
Sigh, I try to really empathize with the refugee, but eu is barely able to keep up now with the migrant flows, god forbid this doesn't stop anytime soon..

 

[witchedwiz]

Even if every single person of those 50 million came to Europe it'd still be 51 million. Your extrapolation is dim-witted, beyond unreasonable. Yes climate change and future livable land is an issue that needs to be dealt with, but your opinion has literally neither value nor importance unless you can vote based off of your ill-conceived notions.

And you're wrong, again. The EU is dealing with the current situation, securing borders, and deporting those who stay unlawfully, you're just clueless with the fatal flaw of not realising it.

Why would you quote overall unemployment compared to youth unemployment?

Securing borders?
Deporting those that stay unlawfully?
Lmao...
I assume you're not Italian and you' e not been in my country for say the last 10+ year right?
Because we've taken the brunt of unlawful immigration for sooo many years, that it's not even funny..
And now we're saddled (relatively now... as it's ongoing for quite some time) on top of that we also get refugee..
Whoa, ECJ distributes 160.000 among eu countries?

In 2015 we had 83.000 people that asked for refugee status..
In 2016 123.000..
Tally for 2017 has not yet arrived..
On top of those, we have approximately 180000 already housed into refugee centers..
And these are just Outstanding asylum seekers PLUS allocated asylum seekers..
Then we have IRREGULAR CLANDESTINES... care to make a guess? Because the last estimate at mid 2016 was around 410.000....
Oh yeah, also we have around 450.000 non Italian that haven't applied for citizenship, but only for sustainable..
And this is EXCLUDING the eu//non eu people that instead are now citizens of Italy (approx 6m, give or take 100.000 people)..

But let's focus on outstanding asylus seeker (around 200.000) and the 400.000 irregulars..
With those numbers at hand, when I see eu countries refusing to take a measily 20.000 off Italy's hands, it's really, really pissing me off as an Italian...


Note:those numbers aren't coming out of thin air, you can get those number from our "'ministero degli interni" whereas the illegal number is just an estimate provided by the is us foundation...

 

[Onlinehero]

Securing borders?
Deporting those that stay unlawfully?
Lmao...
I assume you're not Italian and you' e not been in my country for say the last 10+ year right?
Because we've taken the brunt of unlawful immigration for sooo many years, that it's not even funny..
And now we're saddled (relatively now... as it's ongoing for quite some time) on top of that we also get refugee..
Whoa, ECJ distributes 160.000 among eu countries?

You'd be correct in your assumption. However I was replying to an american who claimed:

The EU can deport people, it can secure its borders, but it doesn't, and instead blame countries that try to do things on their own. The EU is not at all dealing with the current situation, or future situations, with any type of real plan or effective strategy.

In essence, saying that EU nations should be free to refuse aid to Italy. He also claimed that the EU did nothing at all and that it doesn't deport people, and that is -- as I'm sure you're aware, factually wrong. I absolutely support that the EU should distribute migrants more efficiently. You still have EU nations willing to accept cases as fast as Italy can supply them. We have a situation that rational individuals are working to solve, spewing bullshit as leatherface is doing adds nothing. The focus should instead be on member states learning from eachother what works and what doesn't. We have nations that have handled the situation with efficiency that's simply off the scale when compared to the non-effort by those who claim they can't do anything. That rethoric needs to be snuffed out if we aim to come out of this better prepared than we were before, from the relatively short time that our slow moving administrations have been subjected to this challenge we've already seen massive improvements on a national and EU level. When something similar happens again we'd be foolish if we threw the hard work of recent years away.

(And just to back up the evidence for orders of deportation and enforced deportations:
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statis...red_to_leave_EU-28_territories,_2015-2016.png

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statis..._country_of_origin_from_the_EU,_2015-2016.png)

 

[PdotMichael]

Reminder that Hungary and Slovia each are supposed to take 1294 and 902 refugees.

That's sure a country destroying amount of refugees.

 

[witchedwiz]

You'd be correct in your assumption. However I was replying to an american who claimed:

Sorry if I came out too strong//borderline an ass, but as an Southern Europe nation we are taking really a hit with immigration, and stuff is piling up.. thus I get really touchy in these contexts.

 

[KonradLaw]

The Hungarian migrant quota referendum from 2016 was invalid due to a lack of participation from voters, hence the EU proceeded with its quota plan.

Uhh..no. That decision was made in 2015. The referendum legally would have no say on this issue aside from making Orban's appear stronger. The quota was simply voted by vote, where majority of countries voted for it and Hungary was overruled.

 

[ClosingADoor]

See this is where you lose the plot. Hungary has been detaining people illegally. That means there are and always have been legal ways to detain people with no right to stay in your country. If a person at the border says "I want to apply for asylum!", Sweden won't deport you, and will instead subject you to the legal process of applying for asylum. Hungary does not, which makes your conclusion wrong and a bit embarrassing. Look up detention in Germany or any other country and compare it to the case where the European Court of Human Rights has condemned Hungary.

So yes, I agree, otherwise every country would've been involved in illegal activity since long before 2015. But no, it would only sound like something akin to Hungary to someone not up to date with the situation.

That was why I said I am not excusing their other stuff. They went over the line in some cases and are rightfully called out for it. But at the same time, I can see where Hungary is coming from and doesn't want this stuff imposed on them. Since not even the rich Western and Northern countries could be bothered to help out their less fortunate partners in the South for a long time until we literally couldn't look the other way anymore. Now Hungary goes "well, these people want to stay in your countries, go ahead, but don't expect us to take them if we don't want to." Almost the same position Germany and others held for years in pushing the problem onto Italy and Greece, and Hungary to some extend since they are a border country and responsible for who comes into the EU.

 

[El-Suave]

Having those countries pay their share plus a heavy fine would probably be a better solution than to force them to take refugees. I can't imagine the treatment in these countries will be too welcoming and it might even be dangerous for the refugees when extremists and xenophobic elements in their societies feel empowered by a hostile government. Who knows if refugees would even get adequate police protection there if it was needed.

 

[MilkBeard]

after Austerity measures, it is hard to convince the affected youth when you got numbers like these

lots of these countries are not even recovered from 2008




this in nothing like US and Canada 4% - 5% overall unemployment

It's important to note that this is Youth unemployment, which is a section of the population and not the whole. Youth unemployment in US was hovering around 10%-11% last year and recently dropped to 8.8%.

Still, it's a good look at each economy, but it's important to understand what we are actually looking at.

Reminder that Hungary and Slovia each are supposed to take 1294 and 902 refugees.

That's sure a country destroying amount of refugees.

Yeah, I think it's important to look at the numbers. It's not as though they are asked to take tens of thousands. This is a doable number for most countries, and why their protests don't have much weight. By the way, do you have a source for the number? Just want to make sure it's accurate so there's no confusion.

 

[Nikodemos]

Having those countries pay their share plus a heavy fine would probably be a better solution than to force them to take refugees. I can't imagine the treatment in these countries will be too welcoming and it might even be dangerous for the refugees when extremists and xenophobic elements in their societies feel empowered by a hostile government. Who knows if refugees would even get adequate police protection there if it was needed.

I feel this way as well. Accept their refusal to not take refugees, but have them pay.

 

[Kill Your Masters]

Reminder that Hungary and Slovia each are supposed to take 1294 and 902 refugees.

That's sure a country destroying amount of refugees.

It's a joke that this has to go to the ECJ when we are talking about such small numbers.

 

[Bitch Pudding]

There were cases of countries braking european law before and union survived.

*sigh* this is not just another case of a state violating law, it's a case of a EU member basically saying they do not feel obliged to follow a ruling from the court, which is rather unique. But keep on trying to downplay what's happening here.

 

[ClosingADoor]

It's a joke that this has to go to the ECJ when we are talking about such small numbers.

Combination of acting tough for your voters and anticipating that the EU will do this with larger numbers next time. The total number the EU is going to distribute is already laughable compared to the amount of people who came in.

 

[TheRazielim]

It's not like refugees want to stay in those countries anyway, there's no established Muslim communities on the scale of Western Europe (where you can literally live in a parallel society if you want) and you don't get generous handouts either. Seriously, ask any of the refugees, and they say they want to go to German, Sweden or such. So why act against their wishes? What's the point of teaching them local languages if the first moment they get, they jump ship to Western Europe?

 

[Frankfurter]

I'm still of an opinion immigration quotas are an insane decision that Germany came up with after it decided to open the borders without even consulting other EU countries.

I still think it's not racism or xenophobia that drives Eastern EU countries against taking immigrants in set numbers. It's a will to keep own citizens safe. Hear me out. During my university years I was working in a refugee center in Lublin, Eastern Poland. It was in 2006-2009 during the biggest wave of Chechen refugee crisis that most EU countries seem to forgot by now. We were really strict with procedures, checking people that came in. We weren't really throwing them on the streets either. Every single person got a help from lawyers, basic medical check for free, help to get their kids in schools, try to get them a work they might be able to take, etc. Here's a thing. We were able to check every single person and help them. Right now it's chaos. It's impossible to check hundreds of thousands of people in such a short time. There's also different issue. Most of the allocated immigrants will move back to Germany, France and so on. Up until 2015 Poland granted asylum to almost 90.000 Muslim Chechen refugees. In the beginning of 2017 there was around 6.000 of them with additional 3.000 refugee seekers with their asylum status pending. Where do you think rest of them went?

First: this was not a German idea. It's NOT about refugees that are in Germany to begin with. It's about allocating refugees from mainly Greece and Italy. Second this is about 160.000 refugees in total. Over a span of 2 years. For a country like Poland, that'd mean taking ~10k refugees. Not "chaos", not "hundreds of thousands".

some countries have 15% unemployment rate and 25% youth unemployment + austerity measures imposed on the population.

on one hand, you got the fat head country demanding austerity measures on the smaller countries, then LOL that same fat headed country then tells the smaller countries to accept migrants... during austerity measures simultaneously

it is not a one size fits all.

it's totally understandable that populations are frustrated seeing their services cut, their wages cut, their taxes rise in the name of austerity then lol hey toss out money on an imposed German demand on all other countries.

this is not like the US or Canada, some of these smaller EU member countries are poor in the for realz.

the recovery out of the 2008 crash is still not complete or felt like it is in US and Canada. EU countries are still lagging in the shitter post 2008...

like it's WTF Germany. Austerity! + imposed forced quotas on migrants at the same time?

That's why the evil EU (NOT evil Germany!) decided that "one size fits it all" is not a proper mechanism. Instead, besides population size, GDP, unemployment rate and the amount of refugees previously accepted are all taken into account.

 

[KonradLaw]

*sigh* this is not just another case of a state violating law, it's a case of a EU member basically saying they do not feel obliged to follow a ruling from the court, which is rather unique. But keep on trying to downplay what's happening here.

Except that the court's rulling wasn't ordering them to take them migrants in. The verdict was about dismanlting the whole deal they made in 2015.
European Comission might sue later on for not fulfilling the deal, but that will be different case.

 

[KonradLaw]

First: this was not a German idea. It's NOT about refugees that are in Germany to begin with. It's about allocating refugees from mainly Greece and Italy. Second this is about 160.000 refugees in total. Over a span of 2 years. For a country like Poland, that'd mean taking ~10k refugees. Not "chaos", not "hundreds of thousands".

First of all...those 10K would stay this low only if you would deny family reunifications (which should be done).
Second, unless you literally throw people into polish prisons you won't be able to find 10K migrants willing to move into Poland.

Of course, the problem is that Poland didn't take any. If they would take small number every quarter nobody would bat an eye. It's the insistence of taking absolutely nobody that's causing the problems. Not just for EC, but also inside Poland. I mean, we are extremely homogenous country, but we still have some migrants. Vast majority are legal and fully integrated, but the ridiculous fear mongering the goverment does is making some people turn against those migrants, which is completely ridiculous. People who have been living alongside Poles for two decades are now getting treated badly, just because the goverment created impression that even one family of outsiders somehow would end up being a huge danger the entire country.

 

[Hitmeneer]

Securing borders?
Deporting those that stay unlawfully?
Lmao...
I assume you're not Italian and you' e not been in my country for say the last 10+ year right?
Because we've taken the brunt of unlawful immigration for sooo many years, that it's not even funny..
And now we're saddled (relatively now... as it's ongoing for quite some time) on top of that we also get refugee..
Whoa, ECJ distributes 160.000 among eu countries?

In 2015 we had 83.000 people that asked for refugee status..
In 2016 123.000..
Tally for 2017 has not yet arrived..
On top of those, we have approximately 180000 already housed into refugee centers..
And these are just Outstanding asylum seekers PLUS allocated asylum seekers..
Then we have IRREGULAR CLANDESTINES... care to make a guess? Because the last estimate at mid 2016 was around 410.000....
Oh yeah, also we have around 450.000 non Italian that haven't applied for citizenship, but only for sustainable..
And this is EXCLUDING the eu//non eu people that instead are now citizens of Italy (approx 6m, give or take 100.000 people)..

But let's focus on outstanding asylus seeker (around 200.000) and the 400.000 irregulars..
With those numbers at hand, when I see eu countries refusing to take a measily 20.000 off Italy's hands, it's really, really pissing me off as an Italian...


Note:those numbers aren't coming out of thin air, you can get those number from our "'ministero degli interni" whereas the illegal number is just an estimate provided by the is us foundation...

Read this:

http://migration.iom.int/docs/Q1_2017_statistical_Overview.pdf

As you can see, there is a stark decline in refugees this year. Furthermore, many countries took in the past years already MANY refugees from Italy (Look at Germany, with 1 million refugees).
Also, I can't find the source anymore, but I remember reading an article that showed that most refugees just past through Italy. They don't stay there.

Lastly. I live in Italy. Refugee's are a problem, as they arrive here and they have to be redistributed over the country and the EU. But most of Italy problems stem from many other factors as this country is backwards in almost EVERYTHING. Most companies function like shit, corruption, useless politicians, declining universities and schools, low wages..... This has nothing to do with immigration.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

It's a joke that this has to go to the ECJ when we are talking about such small numbers.

I think they did it to establish whether forced relocations are legal at all in principle. I'm sure there will be an argument about numbers too down the line.