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[SenjutsuSage]

This happens all the time. In every industry.

It's completely shitty.

Final Fantasy VII remake has been done for 2 years now. Square is sitting on it until they can make a Final Fantasy title better than Final Fantasy VII.

Release date: never.

 

[Eusis]

Yeah, wasn't Dead Space originally a new System Shock?

I think that was only speculated. Still, System Shock 3 was announced/rumored to be in development years in advance, we never hear of it again, and instead Dead Space comes out, a shooter with RPG elements taking place on a derelict space shit infested with alien infect humans. If that wasn't "System Shock 3" at some point then this is one hell of a coincidence.

 

[SapientWolf]

No, they showed gameplay, too.

Looks like Mirror's Edge, but with better gunplay.

 

[Knugen]

Fuck

I was really looking forward to Prey 2.

Dat Johnny Cash trailer

 

[Krilekk]

If you look into it, the France studio is hiring like crazy and the Austin studio isn't hiring at all.

http://jobs.zenimax.com/locations/view/48

So one team is really gearing up to go into full production, and one is likely still in pre-production.



This guy is implying the complete opposite.

That they almost had a full, working game. His background seems to give him credibility.

The devs of Aliens claimed as much but Gearbox had to redo it all. Even if you have a full game it doesn't mean much. Can still need a year of polish. Can still take another year to make it run good on all platforms. Pubs don't cancel games for no reason, they think what they have is not worth putting more money into it cause sales won't be big enough.

 

[Messofanego]

Man, this thread just got interesting. Using milestones as hostage.

 

[Blue Ninja]

What a fucking shame.

 

[BlackLagoon]

Man, this thread just got interesting. Using milestones as hostage.

That doesn't seem like a new thing. Free Radical claimed LucasArts did the same to them to get out of the Battlefront 3 contract without paying.

 

[subversus]

lol, Zenimax just keeps on trucking.

Back in 2001 Bethesda Softworks published Echelon in US - the title developed by russian developers Madia. They didn't pay a single cent from boxed sales of the game. Developers wrote an open letter in which they have honestly detailed the whole affair but Bethesda still refused to pay. Battling in american courts is an expensive and time consuming affair, so apparently they decided not to take it to the court.

Here is the letter:

Many people have recently asked us to give our explanation to the present unfavorable state of affairs around the Echelon patch. Not only journalists, but also numerous gamers have sent us hundreds of messages, asking why we do not release the long-expected patch to the game. Gamers' complaints and rebukes have been especially painful to us, as we understand that they have also suffered from the conflict. Still, we long kept silence in hopes to resolve the conflict amicably. But now the time has come to tell all the truth, as it is impossible and useless to keep silence any longer. All this is terribly disappointing to us, the authors of the game. Still we believe that our game not only brought troubles to those who bought it...We believe that many people enjoyed playing it.
When - 4 years ago - we started developing the game, none of us had had an experience of making a full game of this size from the beginning to the end. We could not even imagine then how many difficulties we would be confronted with, and how long the way to the master would turn out to be. The development of Echelon took three years and a half of arduous toil in a small office with no sanitation (cockroaches, the spill tank that never worked, etc). We constantly had no money (we could afford only food then). We had to work on completely outdated computers and with only one 19200 modem for all.

As we had no experience, we often made mistakes and had to begin from the very beginning again and again. While we were developing the game, the technologies, which are the most important for the gaming industry, dramatically changed three times; and three times we had to re-make almost everything in the game. At times we gave ourselves up to total despair, and thought of closing the project-And anyway, we believed that one day we would finish the game, and we braced ourselves and got back to work.

In two years, our Russian publisher Buka signed the publishing agreement with the well-known American publisher Bethesda Softworks. According to the contract, Bethesda was to pay 250000USD in advance (this sum was divided into 5 parts, each of which was to be paid on our finishing a certain stage of development) and to carry out a good advertising campaign in the USA and Canada. The royalty, which Bethesda was to pay us were really small (7%), and we knew that Bethesda had not published any successful products in the last couple of years. But still, we believed that Bethesda would sell the game well in North America (which is one of the world largest and the most important territory for the gaming industry).

We really delayed the release of the game. It would be silly to hold it back now, as everybody knows it, and besides we have just given you the reasons of the delays. We agreed to pay all penalties specified in the contract. Moreover, Bethesda had the right to terminate the agreement at any stage of development, but they did not. They even paid two of the five 50000 USD payments they had to pay according to the agreement. Therefore, we finally completed Echelon, and Buka sent the American master CD to Bethesda. It was perhaps the only mistake, which our Russian publisher mad, but it was A RELLY BIG MISTAKE. The point is that Buka sent the master even in spite of the fact that by that moment they had not yet received the payment , which Bethesda had been to make on the receiving of the beta of Echelon, and even in spite of the fact that though the American release date had already been announced then, there was not advertising campaign at all. Still we believed that the game would be successful and many people would enjoy playing it.

Echelon is our first project. We devoted three years of our lives to it, and tried very hard to make a good game. And it is natural that after the release, we did not loose interest to Echelon. Our interest even increased. We must admit that however had we tried, we were unable to fix all the bugs in the game (though they all were found after the master was sent to Bethesda) and to complete everything we had designed, because of the lack of time at the final stage of the development. Still we believed that we had created a REALLY GOOD game, a game, which many people would like and enjoy playing.

By now we have fixed a number of bugs in the game and made a few major additions to fulfill all wishes, which people who bought the game made. However, after days of permanent argument and thinking we decided not to release the patch for the American version of the game. Why? Because: We worked for three years and really expected our work to bring us some profit. We did not expect to gain millions. We sinply hoped that when we would finish the game, we would be able to at least make some presents to our friends and relatives, who helped us greatly all the time we developed the game, hoped to be able to take trips to some places with our girlfriends, goddamn, we simply hoped to be able to afford a good dentist! We also hoped that we would gain some start-up capital, which will enable us to begin a new project without getting into new debts.

None of which has happened. Why? Because: For half a year now Bethesda has been delaying the 150000USD, which they ARE TO pay according to the contract, and moreover, it even refuse to give us the reason why. We have not been paid even for the beta. According to the contract, Bethesda should send us quarterly sales reports. Bethesda started to sale the game in May. By now Bethesda has sent us only the 2nd quarter 2001 report, which gave really ridiculous figures.The 2nd quarter 2001 report we have not received. The huge ad campaign, which Bethesda promised to carry out, it has not carried out (there were a few articles in some magazines....and that was it), and everybody understand how important advertising is for a game to be a success. But still, from some source we know that by now Bethesda has sold about 50000 boxes of Echelon in North America, which means that Bethesda has already made over a million on the game. We were simply shocked by such a way of doing business, and thought it would be humiliating to continue fulfilling the requirements of such a dishonest and treacherous "partner", and to continue supporting "the partner" with new patches and add-ons. But still we believe that the Bethesda case is not typical of the American market, and soon we will be able to find a new American publisher for long and effective cooperation.

In hopes of resolving the conflict amicably, long we kept silence, and quite a number of American players of Echelon got angry with us for that. And we must admit, peoples' anger was JUST. Because the gamers could not understand, why THEY have to suffer from this conflict. Buka also had to keep silence, and still keeps it, because it IS to keep silence according to the terms of its agreement with Bethesda. And we must point to the fact that it HAS NEVER breached this agreement , though Buka's reputation is greatly suffering from it. But it is useless and just impossible for us to keep silence any longer. The things that happen to Echelon - the game was left unfinished, it is impossible to release patches, angry messages on Bethesda's forum - every single thing of it is causing us - the creators of the game - great pain. And that is why we wrote, what you have just read.

Still we believe that our game is not thus bad, we believe that many people liked it, and we believe that this is not the end of its life.

Pete Hines replied:

We at Bethesda Softworks regret the issuance by Madia Ltd. of an "Open Letter" yesterday, which presented misleading allegations about Bethesda's role as publisher of Echelon in North America.

Bethesda has no contractual obligations to Madia. Madia developed Echelon for Buka, which in turn contracted with Bethesda to publish Echelon in North America. Bethesda has been in discussions with Buka concerning a series of contractual issues, including the late delivery of the game by Madia. We do not intend to address such matters in the press.

Be assured that the Open Letter by Madia presents an unbalanced and false statement of facts concerning the game and Bethesda's actions as the game's publisher. And nothing in the discussions between Bethesda and Buka has prevented Madia from releasing an Echelon patch for fans of the game.

 

[Samir Sedlar]

I remember watching the demo back at E3 on Gamespot, the game looked pretty sweet, more than one of my friends were excited to play the game.

And people say that Bethesda treats developers well, they might treat theirs well (not very evident when they have threatened to cancel the next Doom, although it's deserved), but other devs have done so much for so little with them.

Obsidian comes to mind.

Honestly, whoever manages external dev relations: fuck you. You are what's wrong with this industry.

That would be me, and I stand corrected, I wasn't really following them till recently, I thought they were a good company that treats creative vision with respect, quite sad when I hear those stories, the no. of good publishers is REALLY low.

Arkane Lyon = Dishonored 2
Arkane Austin = Prey 2

And yeah, the Sleeping Dogs situation comes to mind in regards to this. Had nobody picked up the rights to that Activision would have been sitting on a near finished game, never to release. It's sadly not unusual for developers to build a ton of content for a game later cancelled.

but this is crazy, if you have a fun game, and don't want to release it, why not give the studio the ability to release their game ?!, I remember True Crime Hong Kong, and how Activision suddenly cancelled it, it was pretty crazy, I am thankful that Square Enix jumped it to the rescue, and Sleeping Dogs was released, United Front Games deserved to release it.

 

[dr_rus]

I actually think that this may turn out to be good for Prey 2. Instead of another shooter we may get another System Shock descendant - which I always welcome.

 

[SolidSnakex]

I actually think that this may turn out to be good for Prey 2. Instead of another shooter we may get another System Shock descendant - which I always welcome.

What HH was creating with their version of P2 wasn't some simple shooter either.

 

[reptilescorpio]

I actually think that this may turn out to be good for Prey 2. Instead of another shooter we may get another System Shock descendant - which I always welcome.

Did you know anything about the original project?

 

[Team Filler]

I would pay money to see real journalists tackle the story behind this. Ever since the ordeal with Obsidian happened, I've felt like Zenimax/Bethesda had some real shady characters dealing with the business side of things.

 

[Samir Sedlar]

What HH was creating with their version of P2 wasn't some simple shooter either.

This.

 

[Jarmel]

This whole fucking thing sounds like a complete damn mess.

 

[dr_rus]

What HH was creating with their version of P2 wasn't some simple shooter either.

Maybe. But Arkane knows much more about RPGs than HH and they seem like a better fit for turning Prey 2 into a System Shock-like RPG.

 

[Blue Ninja]

Maybe. But Arkane knows much more about RPGs than HH and they seem like a better fit for turning Prey 2 into a System Shock-like RPG.

Prey 2 doesn't need to be an RPG. The game was built around agility-based combat and exploration.

 

[peanutbutterlatte]

Wouldn't at all surprise me if this got released and Doom 4 took its place.

 

[SteveWinwood]

I want to applaud you op for the well written and accurate thread title.

Most others would have just wrote "Prey 2 was a completed game!"

 

[Messofanego]

Can't wait for the Andrew McMillen expose article!

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

Man, this thread just got interesting. Using milestones as hostage.

that sounds like something quite difficult to prove in court, though.

 

[FyreWulff]

that sounds like something quite difficult to prove in court, though.

Hence why publishers like to do it.

 

[efyu_lemonardo]

Hence why publishers like to do it.

yeah I get that, but it's a circular argument...

 

[Dictator93]

Prey 2 just looked so good that a reboot would be tragic.

Why?!

 

[JonathanPower]

If the game is complete, can't they just sell it to someone else and have it released with another name?

 

[KKRT00]

No, they showed gameplay, too.

Fuck me, still impressive and still would buy day one. Such a great world and concept.

I love Arkane, but HH's version should be finished.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

I think that was only speculated. Still, System Shock 3 was announced/rumored to be in development years in advance, we never hear of it again, and instead Dead Space comes out, a shooter with RPG elements taking place on a derelict space shit infested with alien infect humans. If that wasn't "System Shock 3" at some point then this is one hell of a coincidence.

Ah, I always thought it had been confirmed.

You're absolutely right though, far too much of a coincidence. I'd love a new System Shock, but I don't have a lot of faith in there being a game like it being made any more. It'll be RPG lite with lots of casualised features and generally not worth its salt in any comparisons to System Shock 1 and 2.

 

[JDSN]

Can't wait for the Andrew McMillen expose article!

Ha!

 

[Totobeni]

The only positive thing here is that Arkane is pretty amazing developer, and Dishonored was close to HH's Prey 2 vision(exploration, quests, doing missions the way you want, open world)

I just wish if Arkane build on it and add their things and new ideas instead of starting a new project of their own because what HH made was really impressive and I'd hate to see that world and design go away.

No, they showed gameplay, too.

Yeah, this is still pretty amazing. I'd pay for that "demo" anytime.

 

[Boerseun]

All this drama is a real shame. Prey 2 looked awesome from the first production art reveal. I was looking forward to playing as a human space cop operating in a truly alien world.

I'm not sure Arkane are the right people for the job of reviving the series. There are worse options out there though (cue Gearbox).

 

[Miles Quaritch]

Anyone remember the reaction when it was first revealed? The photoshopping for the Game Reactor cover was amazing.

 

[Nikhil]

So disappointed, I was looking forward to Prey 2 more than anything else after I saw the E3 gameplay demo in 2011.

Does Human Head retain the rights to the code they wrote? If so, perhaps they could turn to Kickstarter for funding and continue the game under a new IP.

 

[Deleted member 80556]

Long Post

Fucking hell. People boycott EA when Bethesda is the real bane of this industry.

I could care less about the quality of your products if you treat human beings like this.

I feel sorry for Arkane for being pulled into this shitty, shitty company. I wish Valve had kept working with them.

Why can't we have a 20 page thread about this too? Can a mod update the title to reflect on this.

This kind of BS should blow out as much as the DRM thing with MS and Sony.

About Bethesda telling them to "Just treat it like a new System Shock", could that be because they wanted/were working on the next System Shock? Maybe they even had System Shock assets in place, so Bethesda just told em to keep working on it as if it was System Shock. Since there's been a slight surge of interest and talk about System Shock recently, I wouldn't be that surprised.

Im pretty sure EA owns System Shock.

EA only has the distribution rights, an investment firm is sitting on the development rights to System Shock. It's been said that this situation will probably not change.

 

[Izick]

I feel like someone is throwing salt on the wound.

I was cleaning up my game-room and was putting discs away; opened the Skyrim box to put the disc in, and noticed a strange pamphlet behind the manual. The side facing me was advertising Dishonored, and then I turned it over and read PREY 2. Dude is just standing their in full bounty-hunter regalia and a beanie made out of space-age material.

Oh, how I will miss you, space-beanie.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

I feel like someone is throwing salt on the wound.

I was cleaning up my game-room and was putting discs away; opened the Skyrim box to put the disc in, and noticed a strange pamphlet behind the manual. The side facing me was advertising Dishonored, and then I turned it over and read PREY 2. Dude is just standing their in full bounty-hunter regalia and a beanie made out of space-age material.

Oh, how I will miss you, space-beanie.

Goodnight sweet price.

 

[scitek]

Wouldn't at all surprise me if this got released and Doom 4 took its place.

Doing this with Doom 4 I could sort of understand, the Doom IP is a big deal, but going through all this trouble for Prey seems really odd to me.

Fuck me, still impressive and still would buy day one. Such a great world and concept.

I love Arkane, but HH's version should be finished.

I loved the agility of the main character, namely things like how he was able to hang off ledges.

 

[Totobeni]

All this drama is a real shame. Prey 2 looked awesome from the first production art reveal. I was looking forward to playing as a human space cop operating in a truly alien world.

I'm not sure Arkane are the right people for the job of reviving the series. There are worse options out there though (cue Gearbox).

Arkane is pretty good, and in it's core Dishonored was very similar to HH's Prey 2, now that HH is out I honestly can think of anyone better than Arkane for the job.

Anyone remember the reaction when it was first revealed? The photoshopping for the Game Reactor cover was amazing.

yeah, people thought it was going to be a dudebro shooter just because of the new main character.

I hope Arkane keep Killian story and the entire space cyberpunk alien noire theme.

 

[KefkaPalazzo]

Go ahead and be quick to judge Bethesda.

But seeing how they've published 3 of the most acclaimed games of this generation, a game that could of been if it wasn't broken on every console at release, and Dishonored. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. One disgruntled former employee isn't infallible.

And who is to say the entire game looked that good? One good gameplay demo doesn't indicate it's overall quality.

 

[pa22word]

EA only has the distribution rights, an investment firm is sitting on the development rights to System Shock. It's been said that this situation will probably not change.

Not really true, at least not in the way you worded it. EA owns the trademark to the name "System Shock", while Star Insurance owns the intellectual property.

 

[pixlexic]

Can't they just change a few things around and release it on steam?

 

[Grief.exe]

These Bethesda stories are getting worse and worse.

 

[Raitosaito]

Can't they just change a few things around and release it on steam?

They want a AAA hit on consoles.
Every stupid publisher does.

Go ahead and be quick to judge Bethesda.

But seeing how they've published 3 of the most acclaimed games of this generation, a game that could of been if it wasn't broken on every console at release, and Dishonored. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. One disgruntled former employee isn't infallible.

And who is to say the entire game looked that good? One good gameplay demo doesn't indicate it's overall quality.

Have you read the thread at all?
Bethesda as a publisher is treating devs like shit, it does not have a direct correlation with how good ES is.

 

[Jac_Solar]

Go ahead and be quick to judge Bethesda.

But seeing how they've published 3 of the most acclaimed games of this generation, a game that could of been if it wasn't broken on every console at release, and Dishonored. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. One disgruntled former employee isn't infallible.

And who is to say the entire game looked that good? One good gameplay demo doesn't indicate it's overall quality.

Read the post by the developer. It seems legit, since they would have more to lose by going public than gain.

Also, Bethesda has a long history of publishing poor 3rd party titles. I can't remember which interview or article it was, but apparently they've been trying to get into the publishing business for awhile, but haven't done very well.

Wouldn't surprise me if they simply took the first thing a developer sent them and shipped it off without any marketing, to maximize their costs.

It's remarkable that they aren't in jail for the stuff they pulled, if half of what the developers of Echelon said is true.

Im pretty sure EA owns System Shock.

Fucking hell. People boycott EA when Bethesda is the real bane of this industry.

I could care less about the quality of your products if you treat human beings like this.

I feel sorry for Arkane for being pulled into this shitty, shitty company. I wish Valve had kept working with them.

Why can't we have a 20 page thread about this too? Can a mod update the title to reflect on this.

This kind of BS should blow out as much as the DRM thing with MS and Sony.





EA only has the distribution rights, an investment firm is sitting on the development rights to System Shock. It's been said that this situation will probably not change.

Ahh, ok.

lol, Zenimax just keeps on trucking.

Back in 2001 Bethesda Softworks published Echelon in US - the title developed by russian developers Madia. They didn't pay a single cent from boxed sales of the game. Developers wrote an open letter in which they have honestly detailed the whole affair but Bethesda still refused to pay. Battling in american courts is an expensive and time consuming affair, so apparently they decided not to take it to the court.

Here is the letter:



Pete Hines replied:

This warrants a new thread, in my opinion, even if it's old. Combined with the news in this thread, it's all the more reasonable to assume that the developers of Echelon aren't making it up.

 

[Barack Lesnar]

I hate it when it ends like that...

"Why is the Prey name so important?"

This is what everyone's wondering. Prey 1 was a launch title from like 7 years ago that barely anyone bought and barely anyone remembers. Why are they doing this? I don't get it. Just release HH's Prey 2 and let Arkane make a new IP. This doesn't make sense. How is the Prey IP lucrative in any way...

 

[Eusis]

"Why is the Prey name so important?"

This is what everyone's wondering. Prey 1 was a launch title from like 7 years ago that barely anyone bought and barely anyone remembers. Why are they doing this? I don't get it. Just release HH's Prey 2 and let Arkane make a new IP. This doesn't make sense. How is the Prey IP lucrative in any way...

That, or if HH's is incomplete and you refuse to work with them just shelve the damn thing and have Arkane do something similar. I imagine they were only getting the IP due to their monopoly on id Tech, if it weren't for that I bet it'd have been under 2k's control or something.

 

[jschreier]

I'm pretty sure the simplest explanation is the truth: Bethesda spent money to get the Prey license and hasn't done anything with it yet. It'd be embarrassing to just accept that as a sunken cost. They want to get at least one game out of their investment.

 

[Anticitizen One]

Wow, sarcasm or have we found the one person who actually cared about the story in Prey?

I thought the story was great. Better than 90% of the shit storylines from this gen.

 

[bigboss370]

No, they showed gameplay, too.

 

[Izick]

Goodnight sweet price.

Yeah, that exact one! At least they don't have a date listed for release on it I guess...