Your first sentence contradicts the second one. If Denuvo forces you to do an online check when launching a game for the first time, you can't play unless said piece of software allows it to. And if the check is done against Denuvo's servers, then the game may very well come with an expiration date.
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Far Cry: Primal & Rise of the Tomb Raider Will Be Protected By Denuvo Anti-Tamper
- Thread starter Poetic.Injustice
- Start date
no script extender and thus no SkyUI for example
There are some disadvantages for Denuvo (there's no such thing as non invasive DRM).
- can't play games in a VM.
- no mods. The exe is encrypted and can't be modified at all.
And the most import is the impact over performance. There are 2 main ways in which Denuvo works :
- encrypted executable + checks . From a perf point of view this is the best way because the perf impact is very small. Easier to crack.
- The code runs in Denuvo VM. Basically the code is compiled into a intermediary format (think IL or the JVM's bytecode) and get's JITed at runtime by the Denuvo VM. Basically the game runs on "virtual" CPU and Denuvo "translates" those instructions for the real CPU. Obviously the performance impact in the scenario is very high. Very hard to crack .
- can't play games in a VM.
- no mods. The exe is encrypted and can't be modified at all.
And the most import is the impact over performance. There are 2 main ways in which Denuvo works :
- encrypted executable + checks . From a perf point of view this is the best way because the perf impact is very small. Easier to crack.
- The code runs in Denuvo VM. Basically the code is compiled into a intermediary format (think IL or the JVM's bytecode) and get's JITed at runtime by the Denuvo VM. Basically the game runs on "virtual" CPU and Denuvo "translates" those instructions for the real CPU. Obviously the performance impact in the scenario is very high. Very hard to crack .
No, this isn't the case.
One there is really little to no performance hit, If any exists at all.
The while no mods thing has it ever been confirmed? If it only protects the. .exe file then I fail to see how it stops mods if the other files which don't need protection are left unchecked.
Since when do general mods edit the. Exe file?
The while no mods thing has it ever been confirmed? If it only protects the. .exe file then I fail to see how it stops mods if the other files which don't need protection are left unchecked.
Since when do general mods edit the. Exe file?
The only contradiction is in your understanding of how DRM works.
"Check against Denuvo's server"? What should it check for, pray tell? Denuvo has no license management system. In fact, this online check may very well have been implemented simply by the developer, the actual "checking" is done by Steam.
In fact, if it is not currently the case, I am sure that for a long time it used to be the case that Steam games usually did some sort of online activation on the first startup. That kind of functionality is not part of an executable obfuscator, which is what Denuvo is.
yeah thats why it redirects you to a site owned by denuvo ceo
I have no idea what is the purpose of the check. I'm going by what's been shown in this thread, that many Denuvo games won't work unless you are online the first time you launch them. That can be a coincidence, sure, but it could also mean Denuvo has an online check for who knows what reasons. And that would mean Denuvo is virtually a DRM solution, if not a deliberate one.
Real_Madrid
Member
CecilRousso
Member
What it does, is what we want to know. And JaseC showed examples from three games, from three different developers and three different publishers.
I prefer to be "ridiculously alarmist" rather then letting everything slide, when it comes to these things. The more different parties that are involved in depencies for me to be able to play my purchase, the less I'm willing to pay for it, and I want to know these things before I part with my money.
And the site owned by the Denuvo CEO is what then?
The few exploits that managed to circumvent Denuvo were not cracks in the traditional sense, but simply foiled the inbuilt DRM to think it was started by a legitimate user. It makes sense then that Denuvo recommends its clients, the different publishers, to put certain mechanisms in place to make such exploits are harder, by extending Steams own DRM. This could also be done without using Denuvo, see Serious Sam 3 as an example of a dev doing just that.
As such, the only thing the support page could do is use the Steam API to make sure its coming from a legitimate customer. Separate key management has nothing to do with Denuvo as an executable obfuscator.
TheLegendOfMart
Banned
No mods that modify the EXE like Skyrim Script Extender that is required for a lot of Skyrim mods.
CecilRousso
Member
That it can be done without Denuvo doesn't change that this is something used for Denuvo games.
texhnolyze
Banned
Denuvo is fully moddable, including the executable (once the application has been activated)--though devs can bar you from this... in the same way that the majority of video games bar you from modding them.
Though every game is fully cataloged via YouTube and Twitch streams, often before they're even released to the public, you're right that Denuvo games are susceptible to preservation problems. --As are non-Denuvo games, and the electrical power required to play them. Oh, and Earth.
That said, I can assure you that every Denuvo game will be re-re-re-relreased and remastered 500 times in the future, so the idea that a game will be lost to the ages due to DRM is a hysterical and poor defense of piracy.
Where is the NeoGAF Preservation Society when it comes to games like Path of Exile, Diablo 3, World of Warcraft, and Titanfall? And is ensuring the preservation of Uncharted Clone #42 and Far Cry Again One More Time really that important? Come on.
Though every game is fully cataloged via YouTube and Twitch streams, often before they're even released to the public, you're right that Denuvo games are susceptible to preservation problems. --As are non-Denuvo games, and the electrical power required to play them. Oh, and Earth.
That said, I can assure you that every Denuvo game will be re-re-re-relreased and remastered 500 times in the future, so the idea that a game will be lost to the ages due to DRM is a hysterical and poor defense of piracy.
Where is the NeoGAF Preservation Society when it comes to games like Path of Exile, Diablo 3, World of Warcraft, and Titanfall? And is ensuring the preservation of Uncharted Clone #42 and Far Cry Again One More Time really that important? Come on.
CecilRousso
Member
I think that you're the one providing the hysterical hyperbole here.
#1 - Diablo 3 got an avalanche of criticism for being always online when it was released.
#2 - Games that are designed as online only games is a very different cup of tea then singleplayer games.
i guess i am just frustrated and pissed about the sorry state of my favourite hobby
<rant start>
back in the days I was a kid with little to no income and infinite time in a country where buying games was something alien and we treasured and shared the couple original CDs/Cartridges , someone illegally smuggled through borders for us to be able to play anything .....
nowadays i have quite OK income with little game time and all I buy is just indies and the "treasures of old", because in AAA sector all I see are incomplete buggy games, lying devs and publisher and reskinned protections of old under new shiny name.
Back in the days people were dissecting the DRMs because of stuff like activation limits, hidden DRM files.
And now people are fine with renamed 3rd party company, who before rename created one of the worst DRMs in history, coming back with new non-transparent protection scheme which lefts unknown DRM files left after unistall, even ubi renounces the liability for it. locks game to HW and might even does offline mode time limits (needs testing to be sure), just because the creators of such DRMs said its anti-tamper and not DRM and "Didnt noticed it , so must be dine" .... what the fuck happend????
<rant over>
Especially when PC gaming is in fine spot nowadays, getting japanese games we never dreamed of , somehow i just can really enjoy it ....with all these MKX,BAK, konami,... fails
<rant start>
back in the days I was a kid with little to no income and infinite time in a country where buying games was something alien and we treasured and shared the couple original CDs/Cartridges , someone illegally smuggled through borders for us to be able to play anything .....
nowadays i have quite OK income with little game time and all I buy is just indies and the "treasures of old", because in AAA sector all I see are incomplete buggy games, lying devs and publisher and reskinned protections of old under new shiny name.
Back in the days people were dissecting the DRMs because of stuff like activation limits, hidden DRM files.
And now people are fine with renamed 3rd party company, who before rename created one of the worst DRMs in history, coming back with new non-transparent protection scheme which lefts unknown DRM files left after unistall, even ubi renounces the liability for it. locks game to HW and might even does offline mode time limits (needs testing to be sure), just because the creators of such DRMs said its anti-tamper and not DRM and "Didnt noticed it , so must be dine" .... what the fuck happend????
<rant over>
Especially when PC gaming is in fine spot nowadays, getting japanese games we never dreamed of , somehow i just can really enjoy it ....with all these MKX,BAK, konami,... fails
Roni
Gold Member
One would hope. I'm so sick and tired of these absurd EULA's that try and exonerate the company of any liability.
CecilRousso
Member
It's not only about the cost just for implementing it and using, smaller devs can't afford to mess around with their customers in the same way.
ClaptoVaughn
Member
I assume all versions of it will use Denuvo. Otherwise what's the point, if pirates will simply crack the non-Denuvo version?
Although this brings up an interesting question for a site like GoG, which is adamantly against DRM as far as I know. The discussion going on here regarding whether or not Denuvo is technically DRM or not will have to be addressed if GoG ever offers a game that uses it.
A Denuvo game without DRM would do nothing, because it would not have DRM. Denuvo just protects the DRM already on the game. So a game on GoG with Denuvo would be pretty pointless.
Some GOG games require CD keys, so CDPR is willing to bend the rules a tad. Denuvo, being a largely unknown quantity, is something I consider unlikely for GOG's future, though.
ebullientprism
Member
I wont say its a deal breaker but it definitely sours the deal. So for games where I am on the edge (like both Primal and RotR) it will (and has in this case) push me towards not getting it.
If a game I really want (Mirrors Edge) uses it, I will buy it. But for most other games it will mean they automatically go into the buy when 80% off on a steam sale pile instead of buy at release.
If a game I really want (Mirrors Edge) uses it, I will buy it. But for most other games it will mean they automatically go into the buy when 80% off on a steam sale pile instead of buy at release.
Considering how GOG has changed over the years, I wouldn't rule out Denuvo + DRM releases in the near future. They've basically given up on all their other principles already. I don't feel like GOG is the store anymore it was few years ago, it feels very business oriented now with a purpose of showing constant growth.
DRM free is their primary marketing point though, I appreciate what you're saying but they have been pretty unflinching on that position.
RedVladimir
Banned
People didn't really think this wasn't going to be cracked, right? (no sarcasm)
That was fake (not officially by the crack team), just some guy (likely) infecting peoples PC with bitcoin mining software or whatever.
I do, cracked in the sense that previous DRM was cracked and defeated. There may be workarounds like with other Denuvo games but they'll be late and inconsistent. Pretty much pointless for preservation purposes as well.
Woo-Fu
Banned
Denuvo isn't anti-mod in and of itself, that is up to the developer. Don't know why people like to spread FUD. Just Cause 3 has mods out, had them out first week of release.
If the developer wants modding to co-exist peacefully with Denuvo it is possible.
I expect every major publisher to give Denuvo a try if the licensing isn't that prohibitive.
I'm talking about something new over the past 5 or 6 hours. Are you?
Yep. FYI that website isn't affiliated with the crack team, and the crack team wouldn't post their stuff there. Scene groups keep their stuff private, they don't want their cracks to release publically.
I edited my post with more info, but the site isn't affiliated with them at all. It's basically just some guy posting a download link. Scene groups don't have websites, they have private FTP servers and IRC channels.
Last I checked the MGSV 'crack' (loophole, since Denuvo is still there and thus has no benefit for preservation purposes) is highly unstable and tends to crash especially during the prologue, and like usual it only consistently supports certain hardware configurations. The team that does these (3DM) are still stuck with JC3 and it's aparently taking a moral toll on their team, I highly doubt they have the resources to crack two games at once.
Bump for new info. 3DM has suspended all new cracks for a year to assess how piracy affects game sales. aka they couldn't break Denuvo so they're calling quits.
This was the only cracking group that consistently released workarounds for Denuvo (they never 'cracked' it but semantics), so this seems like a big deal. Right now Denuvo doesn't seem like it can be touched.
This was the only cracking group that consistently released workarounds for Denuvo (they never 'cracked' it but semantics), so this seems like a big deal. Right now Denuvo doesn't seem like it can be touched.
they kind of retracted thst statement on weibo later though. they mainly serve the mainland china 'market' if you can call it a market, where people are already accustomed to having free or pirated software in non business situations. they are most certainly profiting from piracy which is certainly a crime in china. this statement came also due to koei tecmo sent them c&d letters asking them to stop hosting pirated versions of romance of the three kingdoms 13.
that lady on weibo (their boss?) is an infamous drama queen and instigator, responsible for much conflict between 'legal' game users and 'pirate' users in chinese internet.
some pirates actually wrote complaint to the government about steam and ps network because people in china can access these services on which games are not censored. just because they think they wont be able to pirate games anymore, they want others to not be able to buy legit copies either. such logic... i don't have any hope for these Stockholm syndrome patients.
a not so uncommon sentiment among piracy users in china is that 'we did not make the copyright laws and those only benefits western nations and we should ignore them'.
anyway back to topic: they will certainly continue working on denuvo cracks and you may see their cracks later if they have progress.
Vlaphor
Member
Yes, and Yes. Incredibly so even. Every game should be preserved and kept playable and every game is a work of art that people should be able to enjoy in the future. I'm not talking about piracy here, but saying that a game isn't worth preserving because of a perceived slight against the game is ludicrous.
The Janitor
Member
I would rather developers focus on making the game attractive to paying consumers, rather than spend any effort chasing pirates.
The way I see it - as a paying consumer DRM has no benefits to me, only potential drawbacks.
The way I see it - as a paying consumer DRM has no benefits to me, only potential drawbacks.
VolticArchangel
Member
Though this will be shortlived for sure like every either DRM, this is fantastic news for the industry. The sheer thought of not being able to run cracked/unsigned code on ANY platform for ANY sofware, is just salivating for developers and paying consumers. As I said earlier, this isn't the end of the road for piracy at all, but a mere beginning. The message it sends to pirate groups about the future of this kind of DRM running real-time hardware based algorithms and them being mindfucked to even continue, is more important on the whole. Cut off the head and the body falls apart. Break the major player among thieves and the small timers tremble in fear/can be bought out even with money.
Now to focus on the consumer side of things. Literally the ONLY worry as of now are of course, mods, apart from the faux "PRESERVATION" demographic and the overwhelming majority of their disingenuous statements advocating piracy in the name of it for a moral high ground. There are always alternatives preserve a game (like govt intervention when it's abandoned/not on sale anymore/left in limbo with pubs & devs being dissolved) but it's a necessary evil we must endure and the bright side is that the number of these titles are not even a tiny minority. Literally in dozens, among the thousands of games we've got which can be preserved for the future by legal means.
So, really hope Denuvo and with the publisher's help comes up with a solution for flawless mod support in the very near future. Also, just because it doesn't become a monopoly, we need more players like Denuvo in the business and obviously a really affordable solution for all developers too.
If true, what a bunch of pathetic whiny douchebags.
CecilRousso
Member
Personally, I don't care what benefits Denuvo has for publishers. I'm a paying customer for all my games, and I'm willing to accept Steam server depencies. And that's it. I'm not giving up anything more, because of what other people does or doesn't do.
As long as Denuvo forces a connection to their servers, I will not be ok with it. There's a limit to the number of parties I have to ask permission for to play my singleplayer games, and that number is 1.
If it's an online game, then sure, two parties are ok. But for singleplayer games, the limit is 1.
When I have to ask two parties, then the price I'm willing to pay for the game is much much lower.
As long as Denuvo forces a connection to their servers, I will not be ok with it. There's a limit to the number of parties I have to ask permission for to play my singleplayer games, and that number is 1.
If it's an online game, then sure, two parties are ok. But for singleplayer games, the limit is 1.
When I have to ask two parties, then the price I'm willing to pay for the game is much much lower.