• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Feminists play GTA for the 1st time

Watch Da Birdie

I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
Honestly one of the really uncomfortable games I've played recently due to its view on women was Project X Zone.

I mean, the base game is off-enough with a weird focus on boobs and butt (with some very gratuitous animations), and the "original" cross-over characters are pretty ridiculous and in one case plain gross, but the localization really takes it up to the next level. I guess they were trying to mock the sexualization, but it just comes off as really in bad-taste, with all the male characters basically harassing the female characters and making lewd comments every chance they get---it was one of the big issues I had with the game, well, other than the fact it dragged on.

Sadly I doubt Project X Zone 2 will fix that. It's probably gonna ramp it up. I don't mind a bit of schlock, but it just crossed the line quite a bit for me.
 

sheamus

Member
I don't know that one feminist that talk about her blog for a sec was a little salty. Other then that it was pretty much what I expected
 

N° 2048

Member
Should be interesting.

Though after watching I recommend everyone

27717-Zelda-Abandon-thread-gif-LwhD.gif
 
The white brunette red lipstick chick and the black chick were hilarious, and they seemed to have fun with the game.

One other had the justified complaint of no real female characters, which is truth, besides Michaels annoying wife and daughter, and the funny jogging chick I can't even remember any GTA5 women.

Of course everyone is going to ignore them and just rage about the 2 that didn't and how 'feminists r takin our vidya games'.

Even the one that said it was terrible admitted that it was fun.

Feminist salt is the best salt.

You're an idiot.
 
I'm not someone who goes into games looking for things to be offended by, or checking to see if the game is pro women or not -- I'm really not -- And GTAV made me uncomfortable with its angry tone, and its portrayal of female characters and women in general. I couldn't play it (after a few hours). I had to stop. I hate the game.
Yeah same. I felt the same way to a lesser extent playing MK9, glad they fixed it.
 

Kinyou

Member
This analogy doesn't work, because the criticism stems from the fact that sex workers are effectively selling access to their body rather than a separate and inanimate commodity. It would be more like being able to murder the hot dog, after licking it all over, to get your money back. Which reduces the status of sex workers in the game to that of a hot dog, where the player supplies the wiener.
But that seems more like criticism of having sex workers at all to me. I made the analogy more jokingly because somehow it's always an important detail to point out that you get the money back, even though that applies to most npcs that you hand over cash to.
 
I'm not sure I get the point of the video. Was it just to assure the subjects that the terrible things they'd heard about GTA are, in fact, in the game and to have them walk away believing that there's nothing else to it at all? Are they going to sit some people down who don't like rap music next, and have them listen to nothing but 10 minutes of edited together fucks, bitches, ho's and n-bombs?
 

Squire

Banned
I don't know that one feminist that talk about her blog for a sec was a little salty. Other then that it was pretty much what I expected

People sure are eager to throw around the term "salty".

Even the blogger was slightly annoyed at worst. None of them really took it seriously at all. They all already think it's junk for thirteen year old boys. I think they're closer to the truth than not, too.
 

kiguel182

Member
This kind of video just shows the importance of Anita Sarkesian and her type of analysis. Some of their comments really lacked any form of substance or even understanding of the medium. "If you played this growing up it messed you up" is the kind of comment that just brings nothing to the table and is just false. Same for the whole "I hate video games" and I wrote a blog about it.

I get that this isn't supposed to be an intelectual piece and that they showed the most sexist GTA can be but still, brings nothing to the table.

Altought I remember the first time I saw one of those strip scenes on GTA (Vice City I think) and just founded it totally gross so I do agree with them on that obviously. Not just the whole "video games are scum" deal.
 

Acinixys

Member
These videos are so dumb

Buzz feed is dumb

Why care about stupid video game junk when so much horrible shit happens to woman in places like Africa and the Middle East

So do something about that before you cry over GTA
 

injurai

Banned
I remember this happened when GTA had its first black protagonist in San Andreas. I saw countless forum disucssion on GameFAQs back then about how people didn't like the "gangster dialogue" or that they couldn't enjoy the game because they couldn't relate to a black guy.

That's one of the reasons I think we'll see a female main character in GTA in the future. Also possibly a gay one at some point. This is just an assumption on my part since I obviously don't know the Houser brothers personally, but I think they enjoy going against the grain.

What's troubling though is that diversity should be sought after for diversity's sake. It's sad when people say they can't identify with the character and they must be given everything from a perspective that they can identify and agree with. I remember those complaints launched against San Andreas of people being upset that they couldn't identify with a black male. But the failing to empathize goes in all directions. Just sad that people invoke such a mindset while advocating for diversity.

Didn't we get DLC with a gay character? I'm surprised GTAV didn't have a Mexican character to be honest.
 

Vice

Member
These videos are so dumb

Buzz feed is dumb

Why care about stupid video game junk when so much horrible shit happens to woman in places like Africa and the Middle East

So do something about that before you cry over GTA

It's not an either or situation. It's possible to work on both, in the same way the NAACP worked on both stopping lynchings and stopping being portrayed as nothing but idiots and servants in film at the same time.
And, most of their complaints were pretty much that it's strange that there are no female characters of note in the game while they played. No tears.\


What's troubling though is that diversity should be sought after for diversity's sake. It's sad when people say they can't identify with the character and they must be given everything from a perspective that they can identify and agree with. I remember those complaints launched against San Andreas of people being upset that they couldn't identify with a black male. But the failing to empathize goes in all directions. Just sad that people invoke such a mindset while advocating for diversity.

Didn't we get DLC with a gay character? I'm surprised GTAV didn't have a Mexican character to be honest.

The GTAIV DLC: The Ballad of Gay Tony. Your boss was homesexual and the player character was Dominican (or Puerto Rican, I can't remember.)
 

Acinixys

Member
It's not an either or situation. It's possible to work on both, in the same way the NAACP worked on both stopping lynchings and stopping being portrayed as nothing but idiots and servants in film at the same time.
And, most of their complaints were pretty much that it's strange that there are no female characters of note in the game while they played. No tears.

I totally get that

But I wonder if the main character was a woman and could solicit male prostitutes and go to a strip club where all the dancers are male, would that change these womans opinion?
 
I remember this happened when GTA had its first black protagonist in San Andreas. I saw countless forum disucssion on GameFAQs back then about how people didn't like the "gangster dialogue" or that they couldn't enjoy the game because they couldn't relate to a black guy.

That's one of the reasons I think we'll see a female main character in GTA in the future. Also possibly a gay one at some point. This is just an assumption on my part since I obviously don't know the Houser brothers personally, but I think they enjoy going against the grain.

I don't really think they do it to go against the grain. They're just in a unique position where they're a AAA studio that can do whatever the hell they want. They can choose the protagonist they want and their gender, race or sexuality doesn't matter if they decide that's what they want. Dan has said that they continually discuss ideas about having a female lead in one of the games. For them it's all about finding the right game and theme to support the lead. It could be GTA, Red Dead or something else. They'll make a GTA with a female lead eventually. It may be the next game or one in the future, but it'll happen. And that's because they can do what they want and they aren't going to care about any potential backlash. Just like they didn't care when they made CJ the lead in SA. And despite the backlash that occurred when that happened, SA went on to be the best selling game in the series by quite a bit. It was only topped by GTAV, which also has a black lead.
 

Vice

Member
I totally get that

But I wonder if the main character was a woman and could solicit male prostitutes and go to a strip club where all the dancers are male, would that change these womans opinion?

Probably, if one of the characters with actual screen time and development was a woman that would change their opinion their being no females of note in the game and having both genders in both roles(characters and window dressing) would create a more inclusive product. Seeing as how that's one of the bigger issues they had, directly addressing that would most likely change their opinion on the game.
 

Fjordson

Member
I remember those complaints launched against San Andreas of people being upset that they couldn't identify with a black male. But the failing to empathize goes in all directions. Just sad that people invoke such a mindset while advocating for diversity.

Didn't we get DLC with a gay character? I'm surprised GTAV didn't have a Mexican character to be honest.
Yeah, the complaints about CJ in San Andreas were always pretty silly to me.

And yeah, in The Ballad of Gay Tony the main character (who's Dominican) is business partners with a gay guy. And he's one of the best recent characters in the series.

I don't really think they do it to go against the grain. They're just in a unique position where they're a AAA studio that can do whatever the hell they want. They can choose the protagonist they want and their gender, race or sexuality doesn't matter if they decide that's what they want. Dan has said that they continually discuss ideas about having a female lead in one of the games. For them it's all about finding the right game and theme to support the lead. It could be GTA, Red Dead or something else. They'll make a GTA with a female lead eventually. It may be the next game or one in the future, but it'll happen. And that's because they can do what they want and they aren't going to care about any potential backlash. Just like they didn't care when they made CJ the lead in SA. And despite the backlash that occurred when that happened, SA went on to be the best selling game in the series by quite a bit. It was only topped by GTAV, which also has a black lead.
I agree that a main female character would mostly come from a genuine creative interest on the part of R* to create such a character, but I do think there's a part of them finds excitement in pushing the envelope, especially on the story side of things. Going female (or even gay) for the player character seems like a progression that they'll get to at some point.
 

Arthrus

Member
These videos are so dumb

Buzz feed is dumb

Why care about stupid video game junk when so much horrible shit happens to woman in places like Africa and the Middle East

So do something about that before you cry over GTA

Believe it or not, they can do both.
Their points were all valid. Not sure what crying you're talking about.
EDIT: Beaten

I totally get that

But I wonder if the main character was a woman and could solicit male prostitutes and go to a strip club where all the dancers are male, would that change these womans opinion?

Yes. Their goal is equality for women. They even talk about being okay with paying for sex in the video. Something along the lines of "just don't beat the prostitute afterwards."
 

Watch Da Birdie

I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
And despite the backlash that occurred when that happened, SA went on to be the best selling game in the series by quite a bit. It was only topped by GTAV, which also has a black lead.

I gotta wonder though if this was because of actual progress among the audience ("hey, you know, maybe it's not an issue to play as a difference race and I shouldn't be so close-minded?"), or them just wanting to play the game and not really learning anything from this. I actually wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people came out of it taking the stereotypes to heart, and using it to further their own racist beliefs.

Likewise I think any social criticism Grand Theft Auto attempted with a female lead would go over most of their audience's heads, and they'd come out with an even worse view of women. I'm a man, so feel free to correct me, but I also don't think a large majority of women actually want to play as a purposefully horrible and immoral woman---it seems like wanting to play as a sociopath is a really male-oriented fascination.
 

Wynnebeck

Banned
I like the one that already knows that it's a satire on American culture. She gets it. Also love the, "If I kill her I can get my money back... uhhhhhhh, that's really shitty."

That's one of the biggest controversies that came out of the original GTA3.
 

NomadX

Neo Member
Violence is A-Okay. Pandering to the male-fantasy is eviiiiiil. That says alot about American culture. Who cares if you murder people in a video game, that's fun and awesome .... but sex baaaad. I'd be fine with a female lead in GTA, but how would the public react to a female murdering hundreds of people. Sorry Lara you're not up to Drake's level yet.
 
Oh boy, their example of this game is going to a strip club and hiring a prostitute (which I didn't know you could do actually, should try this out soon). As if to get bad reactions.

But then again, what is the best argument they can have against it?

edit:
no female characters of note in the game while they played
Fair point, I wouldn't mind a femme fatale as one of the characters. But none of that dragon age inquisition short haircut testosterone ridden leader chick.
 

N° 2048

Member
Violence is A-Okay. Pandering to the male-fantasy is eviiiiiil. That says alot about American culture. Who cares if you murder people in a video game, that's fun and awesome .... but sex baaaad. I'd be fine with a female lead in GTA, but how would the public react to a female murdering hundreds of people. Sorry Lara you're not up to Drake's level yet.


Please Rockstar. Make a female lead that is able to get male prostitutes.
 

Jigorath

Banned
Violence is A-Okay. Pandering to the male-fantasy is eviiiiiil. That says alot about American culture. Who cares if you murder people in a video game, that's fun and awesome .... but sex baaaad. I'd be fine with a female lead in GTA, but how would the public react to a female murdering hundreds of people. Sorry Lara you're not up to Drake's level yet.

Nobody is saying that.
 

Vice

Member
Violence is A-Okay. Pandering to the male-fantasy is eviiiiiil. That says alot about American culture. Who cares if you murder people in a video game, that's fun and awesome .... but sex baaaad. I'd be fine with a female lead in GTA, but how would the public react to a female murdering hundreds of people. Sorry Lara you're not up to Drake's level yet.

They were pretty OK with the sex stuff in the video. And, people are fine with games that star females killing people in the same way they don't mind games where dudes kill tons of people. Tomb Raider, Anya in Gears, all of the Mortal Kombat women, whatsherface from Perfect Dark and so on.
 
Not as bad as i thought, but some of the generalizations made still are derivative of the whole schtick currently going on in social media. some of my faves:

"i heard it's a game about shitty things happening to women"

yeah, pretty much happens to everything ingame.

*strip club*

"wow this is for people who have never spoken to a real woman"

strip club has boobies, news at 11. also, people who go to strip clubs have never spoken to real women.

"this game is so concentrated to the male gaze , this game is bullshit"


i agree, we should throw in some magical, completely justified and never bad female gaze.

also, am i the only one who feels this is trolling for hits?
 
"Feminism. The biggest threat to video games since Fall 2014."®©™

This is shockingly reasonable compared to what it could have been. I mean, it's Buzzfeed. By definition it's clickbait. But with a general conclusion of "yeah some women and/or feminists might be offended by some stuff but, gasp, those same people might also be entertained. Oh, right, and did we mention that it's just a game"? Really? How could this video possibly offend anyone? The story here is that anyone could possibly be that horrendously ignorant (and not about how some people have mixed reactions to GTA).

Won't lie, though. Went in mostly to check out the comments. By some act of God the top-rated posts are completely reasonable ones. Even if this video had had a totally random gibberish title it would have been easy to spot it as a "women in gaming" piece by the up/downvote ratio alone. I swear they're the only things on YouTube that get voted under 90%.
 
Where did I say it's not a valid criticism? It's a fine criticism, I don't personally agree with it but that doesn't make it invalid. I disagree with the notion that a female protagonist, and therefor a flushed out female character, would make GTA a better, more fun game. Other people think they would get more enjoyment out of that sort of a game. We're all correct because it comes down to our subjective enjoyment of a product.

Also, I take issue with the way you frame Rockstar's choice of protagonists. "I mean, if Rockstar just doesn't want to have complex female characters in its games, fine, that's their right." Really, you think that's their thought processes? That they don't want complex female characters? Rockstar has chosen to make a series of games which focus on male protagonists and their stories. They have not chosen to ignore women, they have chosen to focus on men. Those are two very different things.

This is true, in that one implies a certain amount of malice or prejudice, while the other simply implies--well, I don't know. Lack of ambition? An unwillingness to rock a particular boat or leave a particular comfort zone?

I mean, imagine someone said, "it's not that I don't like writing black protagonists, I'm just much more comfortable writing white protagonists." That can be true even if the author is not racist. There are plenty of wholly legitimate reasons why someone might decide to do this. You're probably right in that Rockstar or the Housers probably don't sit down in a boardroom and say, "feminists are ruining everything, let's stick it to them by not making our protagonists female!"

Maybe they're worried about screwing it up. Near the end of this GDC Vault presentation about how school-age boys and girls perceive video games, a developer asks how best to approach the task of writing a viable female character when his own experiences are those of a man; this is not an uncommon concern. Perhaps they're worried their audience won't follow (an apparent myth that GDC presentation tries to fight). Maybe they just don't give a shit about writing a character women can relate to better than men. All of these can be concerns, held without malice, that lead to the choice of a man as a protagonist.

But that's kind of the point of my original post: keeping the status quo and always writing male protagonists, or not writing interesting female characters into your games, is easy. And so long as people keep taking the easy choice, the one that causes the least friction with your perceived audience, the one that raises the fewest eyebrows from your publishers, we will never get beyond where we are now. And we'll always fail at this because of the cycle I described in my first post, and because of plenty of other cycles used to justify why we can't possibly have a decent woman character here, or have this character over there be a person of colour, or come up with a backstory for this character that does justice to their transgender struggles, or whatever. We will continue to face a never-ending chain of protagonists that all seem pretty similar, have the same struggles, dream the same dreams, lead the same lives. If nothing else, that future is boring as shit.

So yeah, I think it's worth noting that Rockstar doesn't seem interested in having complex female characters in its games, even if it doesn't set out to specifically exclude them. Because if they honestly cared very much about that sort of thing, they would find a way to do it. They would make it a priority.
 

Fjordson

Member
I gotta wonder though if this was because of actual progress among the audience ("hey, you know, maybe it's not an issue to play as a difference race and I shouldn't be so close-minded?"), or them just wanting to play the game and not really learning anything from this. I actually wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people came out of it taking the stereotypes to heart, and using it to further their own racist beliefs.
I dunno, I think that's hard to say with an audience this massive. What you're describing no doubt happened with some people, but I'm sure there's also plenty of other people who opened up to the idea of a minority character.

Hell, basically every mainline GTA story since San Andreas save for one has at least partially focused on a minority or foreign character.

edit: I'm getting a little off-topic here. I love GTA, but as far as women go I hope we get more interesting female characters in the next one. Or even a main character. Definitely room for improvement there from R*.
 
So out of five people that I counted:

Three acknowledged enjoying playing it, with two of them appending that they have complains despite that.

One of them openly despised it.

And the last one seemed pretty neutral towards the game all together, just complaining about it's portrayal of sex workers.

That's actually a pretty good variety there. Shockingly, it seems feminists have a fairly diverse set of opinions.

YouTube comments are pretty terrible. No surprise there.
 

Irobot82

Member
It sounded to me that some of their complaints was that this isn't a game that should be played by a male going through puberty. This shouldn't be the structure of how he views women. I completely agree with that. The game is rated R for a reason. 18 or older, heck maybe even 18 is too young when you haven't experienced what the real world is like. Most of them were sensible and realized it was silly shit you can do in a game.
 

Jedi2016

Member
Pretty much what I expected. Rather than just playing the game normally, they had them play the specific parts of the game that feminists have THE most problem with.
 

Agremont

Member
Pretty much what I expected. Rather than just playing the game normally, they had them play the specific parts of the game that feminists have THE most problem with.

It's sad isn't it? People are so easily manipulated.

Buzzfeed first manipulates the feminists, by only showing them selected parts of the game in order for them to get a negative opinion about the game, which in turn creates a negative reaction with the oh so sensetive gamers. Generating lots and lots of clicks.

Ka-ching!
 

RawNuts

Member
The video is rather tame; looks like Buzzfeed is just trying to ride the "______ reacts to _______" theme for clicks.

Pretty much what I expected. Rather than just playing the game normally, they had them play the specific parts of the game that feminists have THE most problem with.
It's all about simplifying their viewpoint and trying to manipulate them into a response, which is treating them like children and it's disgusting; some of them walked right into it. Buzzfeed making these kinds of videos are more offensive than the game can ever be.
 

Watch Da Birdie

I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
It's sad isn't it? People are so easily manipulated.

Buzzfeed first manipulates the feminists, by only showing them selected parts of the game in order for them to get a negative opinion about the game, which in turn creates a negative reaction with the oh so sensetive gamers. Generating lots and lots of clicks.

Ka-ching!

But these are things that are in the game, I don't see why there's a manufactured outrage if they find that off-putting...I mean, it is part of the package Rockstar is offering.
 

Agremont

Member
But these are things that are in the game, I don't see why there's a manufactured outrage if they find that off-putting...I mean, it is part of the package Rockstar is offering.

Well sure, but they're still not getting the entire picture. Which makes some believe it's specificaly bad towards women.

I mean Buzzfeed is hardly doing it for the good of women/feminism. They're doing it for the clicks, therefore they try to get a negative reaction out of people.
 

RawNuts

Member
But these are things that are in the game, I don't see why there's a manufactured outrage if they find that off-putting...I mean, it is part of the package Rockstar is offering.
Because Buzzfeed is specifically trying to evoke a response from them by boiling down their views into something extremely cliche and presenting them with something they think they will have a problem with based on this simplified view of what feminism is. It's just insulting, to the women in the video and to us watching it.
 
Some of the criticism is valid and its the same stuff we heard before. And Rockstar just doesnt care. At all. Its a mature rated game that is satirical and edgy.

I think the only matured rated game i was never allowed to have was Turok for the n64 and my cousin ended up buying it for me anyway as a christmas gift so there was that. I would let my kids play mature rated games at a certain age depending on the content. (i have no kids currently)
 
Top Bottom