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Forza 5: The monetization is even worse than you think.

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S

Sky Chief

Member
IMO this is almost as bad as the pre 180 policies. MS HAS NOT learned anything and I just can't support them anymore with my money because it is clear that that is all they care about. This is just disgusting, even worse than anything EA could come up with.
 
B

BigDug13

Member
theonerayman said:
Because that ISNT the case. The just earn it argument is there because you make money like crazy in this game. Are you going to buy that 4 million credit car in the first few hours? No, no your not. But your not meant to, and not for money grubbing purposes. Again the career mode is a progression. You start in cars like Mazda Miata and the Mitsubishi eclipse and work your way up. You earn a ton of money for each race compared to what the car you bought costs. When you level up you get a ton of credits even in the early going. Your drivatar earns credits when your not online (mine earned 8k while I was sleeping). The Token option is there for people who want the expensive cars right out the gate, but they are going to pay a premium for them
Click to expand...

You've put 15 hours into the game, so surely you've leveled up quite a bit. How many cars have you purchased so far out of the 200 available cars? And how how many hours would it take you to earn 4 million credits for a single top-tier car purchase?
 
Q

QuicheFontaine

Member
Partial Gamification said:
0.99/100 = 0.0099
4.99/325 = 0.015354
9.99/575 = 0.017374 < "Recommended"
19.99/1250 = 0.0159992
49.99/2700 = 0.018515 < "Great Value"
99.99/8000 = 0.012499

Did I miss something or make a mistake? The scaling seems off, or they are suggesting the most expensive packages.
Click to expand...

Fucking lol, these guys are just straight up evil at this point. Can we please stop giving them the benefit of the doubt?
 
D

DashReindeer

Lead Community Manager, Outpost Games
Y2Kev said:
I'm not sure I understand the "just earn them in-game" response. Obviously the problem is that the game has been tweaked to incentivize people spending real money. You don't -have- to, but you'd have to grind miserably or something like that to have an equivalent experience to what you might have had in the same game one iteration prior.

That said, the only really truly dishonest and damning thing for me is the "RECOMMENDED!" and "GREAT VALUE!" stickers on the Token purchase page. Those pages are lying to consumers. Literally.

Microsoft's launch lineup is pretty annoying with this. When I spent all my VALOR points in Ryse, it IMMEDIATELY took me to the store and showed me the item I could purchase with real money to get more.
Click to expand...

That's just standard practice in the f2p realm, and I am sure Microsoft has someone working their monetization on this game who came from that industry. Recommended isn't really a lie because they are recommending it to you. Alternatively, this is often called "most popular." The other one isn't a lie just because they are speaking in relative terms. Relatively speaking, 2700 Tokens for $49.99 is a much greater value than 100 Tokens for $.99. EDIT: or is it? Haha. I should read before I respond.

You can bet that whoever is setting this up on the other end does not think they are "being evil" or lying or anything like that. They are trying to maximize profits on this game because that is what the game industry has told them is the goal. Basically every company is going to move more and more in this direction. There are plenty of gamers out there who are shelling out the cash for these Tokens as we speak. It looks to me like some product managers got together and came up with a system that will make them a whole lot more money than just releasing a stand alone game would have. They will likely get end of the year bonuses.

The sad truth of the matter is that there are people out there with plenty of money to spend and nothing else they really want to spend it on. Games are just going to get worse in this regard as the more diverse groups of whales are targeted.
 
R

RaikuHebi

Banned
Bedlam said:
I wonder what kind of hostile wasteland mainstream videogaming will be at the end of this generation. Will we enthusiasts live in hidden enclaves, eating rats and playing indie games?
Click to expand...
This has crossed my mind a lot recently. I don't think it would necessarily be a bad thing, actual sounds kind of utopian.
 
G

Graphics Horse

Member
Y2Kev said:
I'm not sure I understand the "just earn them in-game" response. Obviously the problem is that the game has been tweaked to incentivize people spending real money. You don't -have- to, but you'd have to grind miserably or something like that to have an equivalent experience to what you might have had in the same game one iteration prior.
Click to expand...

In theory, I like the idea of it, as an alternative to having car packs which you MUST pay cash for if you want to use, where 'just pay' is the only option. But both systems (buy a car pack, and then pay/race to use the car) at once doesn't sit well with me. I fear GT6 will be the same.
 
T

theonerayman

Member
BigDug13 said:
You've put 15 hours into the game, so surely you've leveled up quite a bit. How many cars have you purchased so far out of the 200 available cars? And how how many hours would it take you to earn 4 million credits for a single top-tier car purchase?
Click to expand...

Iv bought probably....6 cars? but thats mainly because of how the career progression is set up. You buy a car every time you start a new series (unless you have a car in your garage that qualifies) And then that car is good for 12-18 races depending on the series. You can move on after like 6 races but im a completionist, So instead of moving on to the next series and make even more money (the money goes up at about 50% for each series) iv hung back and done every race in a series.

To answer your 4 million dollar question im not sure. In the races im CURRENTLY doing, it could be a long time BUT im still working on LOW earning races because of just how i play. if i had moved on and started doing the higher payout races I cant see it taking that long because they throw money at you in this game. NOW all of that money is prefaced on your difficulty. If your playing on the easiest difficulty and all assists on money comes in slower.

Also you dont have to finish 1st in a race to get the max payout. There is payout tiers. 1-3 4-6 7-9. So if you finish second you earn just as much as first
 
N

NullPointer

Member
Bedlam said:
I wonder what kind of hostile wasteland mainstream videogaming will be at the end of this generation. Will we enthusiasts live in hidden enclaves, eating rats and playing indie games?
Click to expand...
Rats aren't that bad with some Sriracha. And Warframe's a pretty good time.

It has monetization like Forza 5, but oh yeah, its free. Don't even need PS+ to play it. Crazy, I know.
 
E

Eppy Thatcher

God's had his chance.
I want to meet the psychopath that would spend 500 bucks on a next gen system - 60 bucks on a new next gen game and then spend 100 more fucking dollars to buy a car in that game.

Who are these people? Seriously who fucking does this? You should all punch yourselves in the dicks. Whoever you are...

Shit's insane.
 
K

King_Moc

Banned
Partial Gamification said:
0.99/100 = 0.0099
4.99/325 = 0.015354
9.99/575 = 0.017374 < "Recommended"
19.99/1250 = 0.0159992
49.99/2700 = 0.018515 < "Great Value"
99.99/8000 = 0.012499

Did I miss something or make a mistake? The scaling seems off, or they are suggesting the most expensive packages.
Click to expand...

The scaling's not off. they've intentionally lied to try to get people to buy the most expensive ass-screwing, rather than the cheaper one.

Seriously, they've done it on purpose. This is Microsoft now. Enjoy.
 
P

pixlexic

Banned
Xanadu said:
you're microsofts kinda guy!
Click to expand...

I will never buy anything that I can earn in game.. but the logic in this thread is flawed in my mind.

You guys rage because there are micro-transactions for content that is obtainable in game.

Then complain that being able to get the content without earning it should be cheaper?


To me it makes more since that if you want to jump ahead you should pay more.

Then again you still have the choice to not buy it all and still get it by earning it.


Maybe I just don't get it.
 
B

Bedlam

Member
DashReindeer said:
The sad truth of the matter is that there are people out there with plenty of money to spend and nothing else they really want to spend it on. Games are just going to get worse in this regard as the more diverse groups of whales are targeted.
Click to expand...
What will happen is a clear split. All popular AAA games will have this shit because those can afford to put it in. Smaller games, new franchises etc. can't get away with it because the whales flock to the popular stuff. Well, actually it kind of already happened but it will get more pronounced.

I'm therefore pretty positive that there will always be games to play for people who hate this stuff. I will just say goodbye to AAA games which won't be too hard since I avoid many of those already for numerous other reasons.
 
D

Deleted member 10571

Unconfirmed Member
Eppy Thatcher said:
I want to meet the psychopath that would spend 500 bucks on a next gen system - 60 bucks on a new next gen game and then spend 100 more fucking dollars to buy a car in that game.

Who are these people? Seriously who fucking does this? You should all punch yourselves in the dicks. Whoever you are...

Shit's insane.
Click to expand...

Haha, you wouldn't believe how much some people spend for virtual items - 100 bucks is absolutely nothing for some. I'll bet you'll see that particular car quite some time, and I also bet it will turn out to be one of the best, if not THE best car for various competitive multiplayer variants.

That said, in a full price game, yes - shit's insane.
 
K

King_Moc

Banned
Has Microsoft actually mandated that all first party content has micro-transactions? I'm sure i heard that. Anyone got a source?
 
LollipoPReapeR

LollipoPReapeR

Member
Jim Sterling is on this it seems... This truly is a disgusting practice

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKEvD0_NUug

pixlexic said:
I will never buy anything that I can earn in game.. but the logic in this thread is flawed in my mind.

You guys rage because there are micro-transactions for content that is obtainable in game.

Then complain that being able to get the content without earning it should be cheaper?


To me it makes more since that if you want to jump ahead you should pay more.

Then again you still have the choice to not buy it all and still get it by earning it.


Maybe I just don't get it.
Click to expand...

You always seem to be defending MS and now it seems you're defending this disgusting practice?

They changed the mechanics of the game to make the grind longer and harder like F2P games. F2P GAMES. That are FREE to play. This is practice is incredibly unethical and anticonsumer
 
F

Freki

Member
pixlexic said:
I will never buy anything that I can earn in game.. but the logic in this thread is flawed in my mind.

You guys rage because there are micro-transactions for content that is obtainable in game.

Then complain that being able to get the content without earning it should be cheaper?


To me it makes more since that if you want to jump ahead you should pay more.

Then again you still have the choice to not buy it all and still get it by earning it.


Maybe I just don't get it.
Click to expand...
The reason you are not getting it is that you operate on the false premise that micro transactions played no role in designing the game. I am 99.9% sure the advancement in this game would look different (read easier/faster) if there were no micro transactions...
 
Q

QuicheFontaine

Member
PG2G said:
An ultimate edition would be the same and you'd still have to unlock the content in career mode.
Click to expand...

True, I guess that'd only save you the money of the season pass.

Still, I think consumers would appreciate being told in advance how much it's going to cost to drive the cars they want to. Some people don't have time to sit around grinding the game to unlock, and so to play all the cars they'd have to pay to unlock them. What's the full cost?

There was a screenshot of a car that costs 6 million in game credits. At a rate of 5-6 thousand credits a race, that's one thousand races. For one car.

If you add up all the purchase prices of all the cars and you come to a heinous total, it's a good indicator that the game is a fucking rip-off. Information that is useful for consumers to know.
 
M

MarshMellow96

Member
PG2G said:
Nobody is going to do a bunch of class D races in order to earn that car.

As you go up in class, so will your payout. That's why its hard for anyone to realistically say how much time kt takes. Before you even consider buying that car you're going go be at the top classes eating MUCH more
Click to expand...

AlexMogil said:
Except it isn't 5-6k per race. First series... yup. Takes about 20 minutes to be done with the first series.
Click to expand...

So how much do you in the top classes? Say S or R?
 
I

InfernoNR

Member
This is the primary reason why I didn't buy a next-gen console, and probably won't for the foreseeable future. This kind of shady shit, along with having advertisements on my dashboard from a service I already pay for, is not something that I will support. I'll stick to my PC. Unfortunate, really, as I've been with the Xbox brand since it's launch in 2001.
 
P

Polioliolio

Member
Arrogant Bastard said:
You act like this is not going to get pushed onto PC. Hell it arguably started there.
Click to expand...

I can tell you irrefutably, that the PC space is definitely not on the same level of consumerism that home consoles are. That's why PC is treated like a bastard step child by all the big publishers. They don't care, and when they pretend, it's not very good, shitty ports, etc.

I was a console boy all my life till I built a gaming PC and saw the error of my ways. I mean, I still love those old consoles, and Nintendo isn't so bad yet, but it's all Doritos and Mountain Dew from here on out.

Meanwhile, PC feels a bit like a safe haven, though you aren't completely out of the grasp of the nastiness... More indies than you can shake a stick at though, and that's great.

Oh, it'll all probably get much much worse before it ever gets better, but right now, I don't feel like I'm sucking on a teat, and though Steam houses much of my gaming operations, it's a really good service and hasn't proven itself to be nearly as crooked as that wacky console BS.
 
K

Klocker

Member
theonerayman said:
Because that ISNT the case. The just earn it argument is there because you make money like crazy in this game. Are you going to buy that 4 million credit car in the first few hours? No, no your not. But your not meant to, and not for money grubbing purposes. Again the career mode is a progression. You start in cars like Mazda Miata and the Mitsubishi eclipse and work your way up. You earn a ton of money for each race compared to what the car you bought costs. When you level up you get a ton of credits even in the early going. Your drivatar earns credits when your not online (mine earned 8k while I was sleeping). The Token option is there for people who want the expensive cars right out the gate, but they are going to pay a premium for them
Click to expand...

exactly. Same reason I hate cheat codes to unlock cars

you will earn money plenty fast. I expect to have 5-6 of my dream cars within a month or three of play time. That's great. I like the progression the challenge

if they made these too cheap to buy, I'd be tempted to pull the trigger. I want to enjoy the gaming by earning the cars by, you know, racing


I grinded rivals far too easy in forza 4 and made lots on the auction house. Consequently I didn't race past the first play through of a crappy career.
the racing in this game is phenomenal
 
D

Deleted member 10571

Unconfirmed Member
clem84 said:
Couldn't have said it better.
Click to expand...

Wonder how many vocal "don't buy this then" players bought this exact game for their XBO. It just happens that (almost?) every One launch title has microtransactions in it - you basically have to send the console back at this moment to play without supporting MTA related games.
 
H

Htown

STOP SHITTING ON MY MOTHER'S HEADSTONE
theonerayman said:
Iv bought probably....6 cars? but thats mainly because of how the career progression is set up. You buy a car every time you start a new series (unless you have a car in your garage that qualifies) And then that car is good for 12-18 races depending on the series. You can move on after like 6 races but im a completionist, So instead of moving on to the next series and make even more money (the money goes up at about 50% for each series) iv hung back and done every race in a series.

To answer your 4 million dollar question im not sure. In the races im CURRENTLY doing, it could be a long time BUT im still working on LOW earning races because of just how i play. if i had moved on and started doing the higher payout races I cant see it taking that long because they throw money at you in this game. NOW all of that money is prefaced on your difficulty. If your playing on the easiest difficulty and all assists on money comes in slower.

Also you dont have to finish 1st in a race to get the max payout. There is payout tiers. 1-3 4-6 7-9. So if you finish second you earn just as much as first
Click to expand...

You joined one month ago and literally every post you've made on this forum is in defense of this shitty DLC practice.

Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya.
 
Mengy

Mengy

wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
CartridgeBlower said:
People -- stop supporting games that use microtransactions. It's that fucking simple. Don't buy them.
Click to expand...

Yep, it's really pretty simple. If you don't want to support this kind of thing, don't buy Forza and don't buy any microtransactions in it. If you are okay with it, then spend away. Myself, I hate these practices and will never buy Forza nor any of its DLC. I don't care how good the game is, I'm not supporting it.

My guess is that Microsoft will do pretty well with this strategy and we will continue to see more games by them monetized this way, because too many people want to complain about it but then still buy the game anyway. If people weren't voting yes by buying this shit, then MS wouldn't do it anymore.
 
T

The Crimson Kid

what are you waiting for
Orca said:
Except about a dozen other games with 'shortcut' DLC, ranging from Battlefield to Diablo to Assassin's Creed.

False equivalences. Those games, aside from Diablo and a few niche JRPGs, had a paid option to unlock everything. One charge and you unlocked EVERYTHING. Where is that option here?

I've played plenty of EA games (NFS: Hot Pursuit, Skate, BF3) that have those options, and I never once felt that I was not unlocking content at a reasonable pace. Those were optional convenience unlocks, but the core game was not balanced and designed to incentivize the purchase of those unlocks like how F2P games work.

There's a huge difference between having those kinds of one-time unlocks in a $60 game and structuring/balancing your career in a $60 game like it was a F2P game.

Diablo is a unique case with the real-money auction house, and I stayed the hell away from it. Blizzard has since repeatedly admitted that the inclusion of that was harmful to the balance of the game and they are removing it from the PC version.

None of that is true.

Read the OP next time. The quote's right there. It's even bolded for your convenience.

Nor is that.

Not according to people who have detailed reports from their time with the game, like those in the OP.

Just as you apparently have no real idea how Forza 5's progression works either.

It's almost like making definitive statements about games you haven't played and have no real idea - outside the hyperbole of doomsayers - about how they work is BAD, huh?

If I'm wrong, prove it. Put forth concrete information to the contrary instead of just snarkily sniping at me.

That sounds almost like every Forza (and GT for that matter) ever made. If you want the best cars you'll have to earn money by racing - it's a weird concept for a racing game, but it's seemed popular in the past.

Yeah, and in past Forza and GT games, you would get free cars by progressing through the game, and by the time you completed the career modes, you would have earned enough to buy most of the cars in the game (or choose to buy the few really expensive cars instead of just buying all of the cheaper cars to have most of the cars. I completed the entire career in Forza 2, and I was able to buy every car I wanted and then some, with the only cars I skipped being the cheaper and more common ones.

So you couldn't buy all the cars after 25 hours but you would expect to be able to in Forza 5 after less time?

I don't see how you could rationally conclude that was what I was saying when I was just talking about Horizon in response to someone who asked about it compared to Horizon.

The point being that even in Horizon, where there were tons of DLC packs and boosters to buy, the game was not designed or balanced in a way that, by design, influenced the player to buy those boosts and shortcuts.

Nowhere did I say what I "expected" about Forza 5's progression.

In Horizon, by the time I completed the game (about 70% through), I would have enough to buy every car in the game. I already have many of them and some of the pricey ones, and I'm sitting on 4 million credits right now. If I put another 6 or so hours in to fully complete the career, I would have enough to buy every car, save for maybe a few Ferraris. And if I wanted to make that money, it would only take another couple hours of racing.

And yes, that includes ALL of the DLC cars.

Or you would just race and earn the money, like in every other Forza game with DLC.

Which I never had an issue with in any past Forza game because I always had plenty of credits and it was quite easy to make more if I was short on credits.

In Forza 4, you got cars every level that were already upgraded to work great in races, as well as discounts on upgrades for brands you raced with. Both of those saved heavily on credit expenditures, and those are gone in FM5.

In Horizon, you got lots of credits from short races, you could get free cars from events and barn finds, you could smash upgrade signs to make upgrades less expensive, and you got bunches of credits from completing challenges like doing certain numbers of stunts, which just happened as you played the game.

In past Forza games, earning credits was never anywhere near as time consuming as it is in 5, and 5 doesn't have any of the systems that saved you money like they did in past games.

Even in GT5, which was more grindy than the Forza games have been up until now, you got cars for completing events, there were weekly events that had big credit payouts, or you could train up a B-spec driver to race and make money for you.

Edit - I'm done with the thread. At this point it's just a bunch of people who haven't played the game and have no idea how it works feeding off the doom and gloom fears of other people who haven't played the game.
Click to expand...

Responses in bold above.

I'm curious, if you know so much about the game and everyone in here is so ill-informed, then why not explain with concrete evidence about how it really works? Snarkily talking down to others with no detail to back up anything you're saying isn't particularly convincing. It also makes the repeated implications that I don't know anything about this game or other racing games ring a bit hollow.
 
S

SmokyDave

Member
Franchise has been heading this way since Forza 3. I don't know why but it was the first franchise to leave a sour taste in my mouth and the first franchise I walked away from solely due to unpleasant business practices.

I'll never forget how it felt to see cars in my in-game garage being held to ransom behind a real money padlock.
 
D

Deleted member 10571

Unconfirmed Member
Heshinsi said:
If Polyphony don't change the way credits are earned, ie keep it similar to previous GT games; then it is no different to the way tokens worked in FORZA 3/4.
Click to expand...

So you're actually believing they'll put in loads of microtransactions without changing the game to have any incentives to buy them?
I don't think that will happen, sorry.
 
P

Partial Gamification

Banned
King_Moc said:
The scaling's not off. they've intentionally lied to try to get people to buy the most expensive ass-screwing, rather than the cheaper one.

Seriously, they've done it on purpose. This is Microsoft now. Enjoy.
Click to expand...
Its from Microsoft Studios correct? Is reporting them to the Better Business Bureau or the Consumer Protection Agency an appropriate action?
 
P

pompidu

Member
Y2Kev said:
Microsoft's launch lineup is pretty annoying with this. When I spent all my VALOR points in Ryse, it IMMEDIATELY took me to the store and showed me the item I could purchase with real money to get more.
Click to expand...

Wait... So you use points inside the game and it pulled you from the game to xbox live store? Wow. Just wow.
 
T

thunder_snail

Member
pixlexic said:
I will never buy anything that I can earn in game.. but the logic in this thread is flawed in my mind.

You guys rage because there are micro-transactions for content that is obtainable in game.

Then complain that being able to get the content without earning it should be cheaper?


To me it makes more since that if you want to jump ahead you should pay more.

Then again you still have the choice to not buy it all and still get it by earning it.


Maybe I just don't get it.
Click to expand...

The problem is, games with microtransactions tend to be balanced in such a way that unlocking stuff in games are way more time consuming than usual. Hence paying real money for stuff that's already available on disc more attractive for busier people.

You gotta remember that some people might have the time and patience to grind for hours and hours to see everything a game has to offer, but not everyone can afford the time.
 
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