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Game of Thrones is bad. Like, really bad. Here's why. (Spoilers)

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pashmilla

Banned
Ah, Game of Thrones. The cultural phenomenon that's impossible to escape, even when you wish people would talk about something - anything - else. I've read all the A Song of Ice and Fire books, and I love them a lot. I used to love Game of Thrones too. Season 1 was the Shit, man. Then things gradually started to slide downhill, first into mediocrity and some head-scratching adaptational choices, then into Actual Terribleness (seasons 5 and 6 were a wild ride). I'm going to lay out some arguments as to why I think Game of Thrones is really kind of awful, not just as an adaptation but as a piece of media in its own right. Oh, and no, I'm not a book purist. I understand that things have to be changed for the sake of adaptation. I just wish those changes weren't stupid.

1. Characterisation

Remember in the books, when Tyrion almost raped Sansa (who is twelve) on their wedding night before changing his mind? Or when he raped that sex slave in Volantis? How he repeatedly thinks about how much he wants to rape Cersei? Or when he threatens to rape and murder Tommen just to get at Cersei? Well, show Tyrion would never do that. He is Such A Good Guy. Tyrion is GRRM's favourite character. He's also quite clearly D&D's favourite character. The difference being that in the latter case, every other character on the show has to warp to accommodate him. Daenerys literally gets kicked out of her ADWD plotline so Tyrion can take over and show off how Awesome he is and how much better he is at ruling. Sansa kneels at her wedding, destroying one of her strongest acts of resistance in the books all for the sake of Tyrion not looking bad. He's such a good guy, why WOULDN'T Sansa kneel for him? God, what a bitch. And, lest we forget, Tyrion is the Abe Lincoln of his time. He's also the most famous dwarf in the world, and he is The Gift.

TZhHZJU.gif


Kill me.

Then there's Cersei. In A Game of Thrones, when Ned tells her he knows about the incest, Cersei offers him sex in exchange for his silence, and when he refuses, she slaps him. She is the one who has Robert's bastards killed, not Joffrey. She is the one who orders Mandon Moore to kill Tyrion during the battle of the Blackwater, not Joffrey. She has Falyse Stokeworth (poor Falyse) given to Qyburn for his "experiments" when Falyse is no longer politically convenient for her. She abuses Tommen verbally and emotionally. She didn't have a baby with Robert, because when he did get her pregnant she had an abortion, and after that only ever gave him blow jobs because she liked the idea of eating thousands of his children. She frames Margaery for fornication and high treason because she's paranoid and jealous. In the show, Cersei does none of these things. She's a poor misunderstood woman who's just trying to protect her children but is being kept down because of her gender. It makes her sudden shift into Maleficent (that dress, seriously, I can't) at the end of season 6 all the more jarring. It feels like she's the villain only because the show says she is. Olenna Tyrell calls her the vilest person she has ever met. This coming from the woman who murdered Cersei's son. surejan.gif.

Jaime... don't talk to me about Jaime. I cannot handle what the show did to his character. One of my favourite book characters and they destroyed him. Remember when Cersei wrote to beg him for help with her trial at the end of AFFC and he throws the letter in the fire? Remember that? God, that was awesome. And Brienne is turned into a savage killer because that's more badass, I guess. Jon goes from being smart, sympathetic and torn between his duties to the Night's Watch and his love for his family to a meathead who swings a sword real good and is killed the other members of the Night's Watch are racist idiots (well, we couldn't possibly have him breaking his vows! That might make him morally ambiguous!). Sansa is just... I don't even know. And Yara. Oh gods, Yara. Asha is my problematic fave. Yara is an abusive turd. Euron... I could go on. Basically, half the characters don't resemble their book counterparts in any way, and the other half are just completely inconsistent and change personalities to suit the needs of the plot.

Fuck, I forgot about Ellaria. Now I'm angry again *curls around book Ellaria and hisses protectively*.

Plot and writing

Even people who still like the show admit the writing is pretty awful. And it really is. Nothing makes sense. Ellaria decides to avenge Oberyn by... murdering his entire family. And no one seems to have any problems with a bastard woman taking over Dorne? Arya is a hot fucking mess. She kills the Waif, who hates her for no apparent reason, and this makes her no one? Stannis getting annihilated by Ser Twenty of House Goodmen, then deciding to burn his daughter because they've been without food for like a day, even though he's the man who survived the siege of Storm's End by eating book leather and rats for A YEAR? Robb deciding to say fuck it to his marriage vows and marrying Talisa because YOLO (as opposed to doing it for honour, which creates a parallel with Ned, hmm, it's almost like this is a THEME or something) which leads directly to the deaths of him, his wife, his unborn child and his mother. Nice one, Robb. I could go on.

Westeros Jetpack Joyride

Every character has a jetpack and Westeros exists in a warp that distorts time. This is the only explanation I can think of for the timeline. Yara goes from the Iron Islands to the Dreadfort in less than a season, even though this would require sailing around the entire continent, but Gilly's baby is still a baby and Myrcella has been in Dorne for years! Littlefinger is a most industrious teleporter, zipping from the Eyrie to Moat Cailin to Mole's Town in a matter of days, apparently. Sansa and Jon's walking tour of the North takes months, presumably, but Cersei's trial is "in a few days". And Jaime got all the way from Dorne to King's Landing, but Doran has only just received news of Myrcella's death? This attempt at a coherent timeline makes for fun reading.

"Themes are for eighth grade book reports," an actual quote by David Benioff

ASOIAF is a very thematically cohesive body of work. Themes of identity ("Theon, my name is Theon, you have to know your name"), themes of family and love, the intersection of the personal and political, so on. Game of Thrones dislikes themes, because according to the showrunners, who have Masters degrees in Creative Writing, themes are for eighth grade book reports. No, I will not stop quoting that, because it will never stop being stupid. It's almost like Jon and Dany's ADWD arcs are direct parallels to each other or something? And that Sandor as the gravedigger is finally at peace? That Cersei is a foil to basically every major female character, like Sansa, Dany, Arianne, Catelyn, Arya, and Brienne? Brienne and Jaime's arcs in AFFC also parallel each other, as both struggle with questions of what it means to be a knight, and what the true meaning of honour is, and with their place in the world - Brienne as a woman who does not conform to gender expectations, and Jaime as a disabled person. In the show Jaime's disability is mostly forgotten (Nikolaj Coster-Waldau had to point out to D&D that Jaime might have trouble fighting now that, you know, his sword hand is chopped off) and Brienne is just a murdering brute who doesn't seem to question herself at all. The show's themes consist of "revenge is good!". Sansa sics dogs on Ramsay, Arya brutally murders people, Brienne abandons Sansa to kill Stannis yet faces no repercussions for this decision, and all of these are portrayed as good things. Even though they're actually kind of disturbing.

All the -isms. All of them.

Game of Thrones is sexist. And racist. And homophobic. And ableist. Rape is used for shock value, and the patriarchy exists except when it doesn't (that fucking dinner scene at Horn Hill, urghghghghgh). No, Dany, Arya, Sansa, Brienne and Ellaria brutally and remorselessly murdering people is not "empowering". Violence isn't empowering. Violence is just violent.

Then there's the Dothraki, who are admittedly problematic in the book as well, but this is taken up to eleven in the show. Dany burns down their most sacred temple with all their khals inside and instead of killing her they bow to her, because those savage brown people know their place. And Tyrion whitesplaining to Missandei and Grey Worm in Meereen, fucking kill me. When Missandei told Tyrion he didn't understand what it was to be a slave I fucking cheered. You go girl. Tell that condescending asshole.

Homophobic. Loras. Oh my god, Loras. What the fuck did they do to you?! Book Loras joins the kingsguard, because in his words, "when the sun has set, no candle can replace it" ;A;. He is a renowned knight, a supreme badass - a little hot headed and reckless, but hey, he's young - and extremely protective of his beloved sister Margaery. In the show, he is GAY! Did you know that Loras is GAY? He likes MEN! He likes FASHION because he is GAY! He sleeps with prostitutes because he's just so GAY! And then in season 6, the gay man gets tortured and scarified with religious iconography before getting blown up. Oberyn and Ellaria, both bisexual, live in a fucking brothel. In the book, Oberyn makes an offhand comment about them "sharing a beautiful blonde", but they also have four young children together and are doting parents. But no, those crazy brown bisexuals amirite.

Ableism. Jaime, Jaime, Jaime. He stops a sword with his golden hand! How wacky. And Hodor, because disability can't just be, it has to have a reason behind it. I know this is taken from the books, and if it's in the same context as in the show I will be upset. The beetles monologue, ugh.

Conclusion

Game of Thrones is a poorly-written problematic piece of shit. Discuss!



Mod edit: No drive by "lol no" shit posting. If you disagree and want to discuss, write a real response. Thanks.
 
I liked all seasons, with the exception of 5 (and even that had Hardhome). 6 was great. Winds of Winter might be my favorite episode in the series.
I rather watch season 6 again that read through the last two books, which I found a massive slog.
 

opoth

Banned
That's it, I'm convinced. Can you do a similar piece about Trump so all the Trump supporters who love Trump will be persuaded to change their mind on Trump? Thanks.
 

Ray Wonder

Founder of the Wounded Tagless Children
When I sit and watch it, I like it. Therefore, good.

Honestly, most television doesn't capture my attention enough to sit through an hour anymore. GoT never fails to keep me glued to the screen. I don't have any well thought out input on it though.
 
There arent really any alternatives in that genre for television.
Regarding the books for someone who hasnt read them: who cares
 
I followed a similar trajectory. Loved most of the books and thought the first season of the show was great, but then it got progressively worse after that. The last season was mostly entertaining though and made me glad I didn't drop the show completely as I had planned.

Still, nowhere near as good as it's popularity suggests.
 

JoeNut

Member
1. Characterisation

Remember in the books, when Tyrion almost raped Sansa (who is twelve) on their wedding night before changing his mind? Or when he raped that sex slave in Volantis? How he repeatedly thinks about how much he wants to rape Cersei? Or when he threatens to rape and murder Tommen just to get at Cersei? Well, show Tyrion would never do that. He is Such A Good Guy. Tyrion is GRRM's favourite character. He's also quite clearly D&D's favourite character. The difference being that in the latter case, every other character on the show has to warp to accommodate him. Daenerys literally gets kicked out of her ADWD plotline so Tyrion can take over and show off how Awesome he is and how much better he is at ruling. Sansa kneels at her wedding, destroying one of her strongest acts of resistance in the books all for the sake of Tyrion not looking bad. He's such a good guy, why WOULDN'T Sansa kneel for him? God, what a bitch. And, lest we forget, Tyrion is the Abe Lincoln of his time. He's also the most famous dwarf in the world, and he is The Gift.

TZhHZJU.gif


Kill me.

Game of Thrones is a poorly-written problematic piece of shit. Discuss!

why does this make it bad? because it's different to the book? i understand you are saying that it is different, i don't understand that the difference makes it bad.

discuss.
 
Hmm...it's almost as if things have to be adapted from the source material to play well on screen...what a strange and foreign concept.
 

Korey

Member
It's massively overrated.

I have a feeling people watch it because it's like a watercooler social type thing where everyone else is watching it so you have to too.
 

NandoGip

Member
Valid criticism, but I still love the show. Most of your critiques are how it's worse than the book, but not really fair to compare.
 
It's getting worse as time goes on, that's for sure. I'm not a book reader so no comparisons there, but they keep killing good characters, dragging out narrative lines, and so on.

The worst crime of the show is how disjointed it feels. The length of each story surely can't line up, but they present everything as if it's happening at the same time. It's become a bigger problem as the show has continued.
 
why does this make it bad? because it's different to the book? i understand you are saying that it is different, i don't understand that the difference makes it bad.

discuss.

Benioff & Weiss don't really have a clue what they're doing so the more they deviate from the source material, the worse it gets.

I have stopped hoping for any new book releases and now I just watch the show to see what happens. It's a fucking shame. Now that I think about it I'm not even a little excited for the next season.
 

Faiz

Member
Yep. First season was ok, but I had some concerns. Second season bore that out. Couldn't give a care about the show now.
 
WOAH, woah, WOAH. Slow down there, bud. Listen, I agree with a majority of your complaints but in making your argument you make a few wrong points or assumptions.

1. I agree that I hate Tryion's whitewashing in the show but let's get our facts straight. He doesn't want to "rape" Sansa, he wants to sleep with her since she is his lawful wife. Sansa is willing to do her duty but Tyrion wants her to actually want to be with him and not screw him out of marital duty. That's not rape unless you feel it's rape due to Sansa's age, age of consent laws don't apply in that world. Once you've "bled" you're old enough to get married and start having kids. Tyrion also doesn't rape the slave girl in Volantis (or was it Pentos) she was a prostitute or a sex slave, she willingly offered herself to him. The sexual act is not the depraved part about Tyrion, it was him trying to instill fear in her during it. We could also talk about how he straight up murders Shae in the books as opposed to the self-defense nonsense the show concocted.

2. We do not know that Cercei killed Robert's bastards, although that is likely. However, we have no evidence that she ordered Mandon Moore to kill Tyrion, in that part I think the show is correct in laying the blame at Joffrey especially given Varys comments about the incident in the book later on. Basically, that Moore was loyal and cared only about his duty. Thus, I think it is reasonable infer that the only person who could order him to kill someone of the royal blood would be the King. The only person who could really give him orders in the first place.

I believe I agree with everything else though. Seasons 1-3 were a damn good adaptation and despite some missteps so was Season 4. But, as GRRM kept taking forever to release the books D&D had to rely on their own writing and this resulted in what we got for Season 5, garbage. Season 6 was at least pleasant since they decided to basically fuck the books, as far as we know, and just write their own full on fan fiction.

Also, I knew the showrunner didn't "get" Jaimie when they had him murder his own cousin to escape the Starks. Book Jaimie would NOT do that.
 

jay

Member
I stopped watching the show because of most of those reasons. It sucks compared to the books, though it starts strong. If you haven't read them and are enjoying the show, don't.

Also what's with all the shitty one word posts?
 
pssst you're a book purist.

There are plenty of criticisms to level at GoT but most of yours are purist complaints that don't account for the differences in the mediums. And yes that includes more sympathetic characters overall for a television series.
 
I mean even ignoring the whole book aspect the non source material they write is absolute fucking shit. I'd be okay with the changes if they were written well in the first place.
 
Westeros Jetpack Joyride
Every character has a jetpack and Westeros exists in a warp that distorts time. This is the only explanation I can think of for the timeline. Yara goes from the Iron Islands to the Dreadfort in less than a season, even though this would require sailing around the entire continent, but Gilly's baby is still a baby and Myrcella has been in Dorne for years! Littlefinger is a most industrious teleporter, zipping from the Eyrie to Moat Cailin to Mole's Town in a matter of days, apparently. Sansa and Jon's walking tour of the North takes months, presumably, but Cersei's trial is "in a few days". And Jaime got all the way from Dorne to King's Landing, but Doran has only just received news of Myrcella's death? This attempt at a coherent timeline makes for fun reading.

Brienne and The Hound skip across the map only to bump into each other in a random patch of mountains. I will never not hate that.

Then they bring the Hound back after giving him grievous wounds that would be life threatening with modern medicine, that he received in the middle of nowhere, as opposed to a well traveled road. Horrible.
 
it's sad how far the show has fallen since the first season

i can still enjoy the sets, costumes, acting and spectacle

but the writing is very inconsistent and often dumb as fuck
 
I mean even ignoring the whole book aspect the non source material they write is absolute fucking shit. I'd be okay with the changes if they were written well in the first place.

Agreed. They made some positive steps in S6 but we'll have to wait to see how that plays out. I don't think any book reader begrudges them cutting down Daenerys Mereen plot from the books, it's just that what they replaced it with was utter nonsense.
 
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