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[hobblygobbly]

People are so quick to defend companies, especially tax dodging ones, ones that earn the most money and also pay the least tax. There's trillions in tax havens from companies like Google, Apple, Amazon, etc. There's more money in tax havens than multiple countries in Europe's GDPs combined, 3bn fine is *nothing* from what they truly should be fined as a business practice. IT companies like Google and Amazon are the largest contributors to this issue.

Also my biggest worry with market dominance like Google is curation. It's a search engine that curates results for you based on search/behavioural patterns and also uses it to serve you ads based on your behaviour. Curated search results is something that should we should be sceptical about by companies like Google because certain sites are also given higher ranking in your results than others depending on your "behaviour". For example, if you search for a particular political topic, certain articles by certain sites will see more prevalent ranking in the results than others, based on your search/behavioural patterns using Google services.

Here's an article also by The Guardian (there are more articles out there covering this) - When algorithms rule our news, should we be worried or relieved?

We also had Facebook recently come out with manual curation of conservative news (yes conservative news sucks but the principle of curation here I have a problem with), curation on the Internet unbeknownst to people can lead to larger problem later on the road because it breeds ignorance. People having liberal or more objective news pushed away from their eyes even seeing it due to curation is very bad for example with Google, since it thinks you rather want to see more articles from breitbart, than maybe the BBC on a particular topic. Certain articles will be more favourably visible than others. I personally hate curation that you can't opt out of or aren't made aware that exists. I want to curate my own interests, not a third party doing it.

 

[Pantaghana]

IF EU truly wanted to attack anti-consumerism,then they should start with MPAA, Apple,

MPAA? Can you please elaborate? I'm unaware of any presence of theirs in EU, I don't understand on what grounds the EU could pursue them.
And Apple? While they have a comfortable marketshare, smarthphones in EU are mostly Android, on what grounds should EU pursue them?

 

[massivekettle]

Lol Americans getting angry about huge companies getting fined, good job.

When European companies will be fined in a similar fashion (and magnitude), give me a shout...

Another money grab by the EU...

 

[jorma]

If I were google, my defense to having a search engine monopoly would be 3 words: Yahoo!, Bing, ask.com

Luckily for google, they have better defense-lawyers than that. Having a dominant position in the market isn't illgegal, but with great market share comes some responsibilites that you have to adhere by if you want to do business in the EU.

I don't know if google is guilty of wrongdoing, but your three words in defense of google are completely irrelevant to the case.

 

[Dancing Queen]

This is good news. Google's power has become too big and they are using that power in such a way that t harms customers.

Got any data to support this claim?

 

[raphier]

The American IT companies are much bigger and more powerful than any of those though.

oh so Google is more powerful than the companies that potentially control your health, crush stock markets and are valued at 1 trillion USD. Or an association that is hellbent to twist anti-consumerist copyright laws, sends illegal copyright notices to european citizens and empowers censorship .

 

[Nikodemos]

When European companies will be fined in a similar fashion (and magnitude), give me a shout...

Another money grab by the EU...

They did. The biggest previous case was a tempered glass cartel in which 3 of the 4 coumpanies involved were European.

And what do you mean by cash grab? Fines are supposed to be massive, else they will simply be written off as expenses and behaviour will continue. We read with somewhat alarming frequency of US regulatory bodies issuing dozen-million-dollar fines to 3-billion a year companies and everyone calls them a slap on the wrist. But now a 3 billion fine is onerous. No, it isn't; it's a fine. It's supposed to be painful for one's wallet so that you won't do it again.

 

[PdotMichael]

A fine must be higher than the profit a company gained with its wrong doings or it doesn't work.

So Google is pretty lucky that the possible fine is just three billions.

 

[Munti]

You really don't see any potential issues with forcing websites to delete content based on personal requests? The whole idea is ripe for abuse by allowing Orwellian edits on records of history. It also is generally opposed to freedom of speech.

It only delets the results in the hit list, not the content itself. And Google Search is only a search engine, not an archive. It's not supposed to preserve content.

 

[ClosingADoor]

When European companies will be fined in a similar fashion (and magnitude), give me a shout...

Another money grab by the EU...

They are. Quick look for cartel fines for example http://ec.europa.eu/competition/cartels/cases/cases.html

Riberebro - Spain
Philips - Netherlands
Express Interfracht - Austria
Huhtamäki - Finland
Nespak - Fance
Vitembal - France
Silver Plastics - Germany
Coopbox - Italy
Magic Pack - Italy
Sirap-Gema - Italy
Linpac - UK
Ovarpack - Portugal
Propack - UK
Eberspächer - Germany
Webasto - Germany
ICAP - UK
Bong - Sweden
GPV - France
Hamelin - France
Mayer-Kuvert - Germany
Tompla - Spain

That was 2015. I can go on for a while.

Magnitude is smaller of course, since they are smaller companies. That is only logical. A fine should be based on the size of the company, or it wouldn't hurt.

Edit: And the biggest ones: http://ec.europa.eu/competition/cartels/statistics/statistics.pdf

Including:

Saint Gobain - France
Philips - Netherlands
Deutsche Bank - Germany
F. Hoffmann-La Roche - Switzerland
Siemens - Germany
Schaeffler - Germany
Pilkington - UK
E.ON - Germany
GDF Suez - France

Actually, among the 10 highest cartel fines here, 9 are European.

 

[Ghost]

€3billion is probably a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of market manipulation google has at the very least enabled by having such a dominant position in search.

And to the people who say "this is bullshit, competition just needs to do better", 2 things,

1. The companies this affects aren't competing with Google, so they might already be the best in their field, it just doesn't matter if Google doesn't think so, so what you're really saying is "This is bullshit, give google more money if you want to be successful"

2. Even for those trying to compete with Google, competitiveness in search is becoming increasingly difficult because the best engines use their profile on you to skew what you see to things they know you've clicked on previously, so Google's dominance facilitates further dominance, their market position is all but unbreakable. So it's not the case that another provider can come along, present better purchasing options that Google does, and steal back market share, because they are trading at a distinct (and growing) disadvantage.




I think what this case highlights is that even though Google is a well run company that has a lot more ethical kudos than the normal mega-corporation, their level of power and influence over what people see on the internet is so massive that seemingly tiny decisions for them have massive consequences for millions of people, and I think it's right that the success they've earned comes with certain stringent conditions and policing.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

When European companies will be fined in a similar fashion (and magnitude), give me a shout...

Another money grab by the EU...

VW because of the emission cheating is facing up to an 18 (?) bn$ fine

 

[Nikodemos]

VW because of the emission cheating is facing up to an 18 (?) bn$ fine

And the US is trying to use that in order to lean on Germany so as to swallow the TTIP toxic sludge fire.

 

[GAMEPROFF]

Got any data to support this claim?

Like multiple people in this thread already claimed, they have over 90% marketshare.

 

[raphier]

MPAA? Can you please elaborate? I'm unaware of any presence of theirs in EU, I don't understand on what grounds the EU could pursue them.

MPAA or their subsidiary in europe, EMEA, wants to control Intellectual Property laws in Europe on basis of american copyright, this includes internet censorship and anti-piracy crackdown.

It may sound good at first, but they also enforce Single Digital Market. They basically also control how movies are sold. You buy the license to watch the movie, not the DVD, etc. Many ways very anti-consumerist practices.

They also hire local law firms on their behalf to ask ISPs for individual information by sending them IPs associated with piracy, then use these firms to send people threatening notifications to pay fees. The practice is deemed illegal hee in europe, but if you do a reply, they can sue you.

And Apple? While they have a comfortable marketshare, smarthphones in EU are mostly Android, on what grounds should EU pursue them?

There was once a time when Apple dominated the marketshare with the same practices they follow today. They are very influental company regardless. They basically designed the modern walled-garden approach to apps and hardware. Everything they design only works on their own devices. When you need to buy an accessory for your phone, it's often overpriced and bought only from Apple approved reseller. It's very unfair for consumers.

They also curate the App store, so they can eliminate competition as they wish. I think that's the main reason people have been flocking away recently from them and it shouldn't matter if they have lower marketshare, they still have it and stand in a powerful position.

Antitrust should crack down on them big time.

 

[GAMEPROFF]

They also curate the App store, so they can eliminate competition as they wish.

Like Google does with their Play Store and Android?

 

[ClosingADoor]

There was once a time when Apple dominated the marketshare with the same practices they follow today. They are very influental company regardless. They basically designed the modern walled-garden approach to apps and hardware. Everything they design only works on their own devices. When you need to buy an accessory for your phone, it's often overpriced and bought only from Apple approved reseller. It's very unfair for consumers.

They also curate the App store, so they can eliminate competition as they wish. I think that's the main reason people have been flocking away recently from them and it shouldn't matter if they have lower marketshare, they still have it and stand in a powerful position.

Antitrust should crack down on them big time.

But Apple doesn't have anything near a monopoly on the phone market. They aren't even close in Europe. It's actually Android that is having 3/4 of the market sales now:

In the top five European markets (U.K., France, Germany, Italy, and Spain), Android’s market share increased to 75.6 percent, up 7.1 percent compared to the same period a year ago.

- http://venturebeat.com/2016/05/11/android-is-eating-apples-ios-market-share-everywhere/ (May 11th)

 

[El Topo]

Bu-bu-but Apple! What is it with all the whataboutism in this thread?

 

[raphier]

But Apple doesn't have anything near a monopoly on the phone market. They aren't even close in Europe. It's actually Android that is having 3/4 of the market sales now:


- http://venturebeat.com/2016/05/11/android-is-eating-apples-ios-market-share-everywhere/ (May 11th)

So as long as a company doesn't have a marketshare, it's okay to be anti-consumerist? Mind you, Apple had marketshare for 5 straight years and nobody winced an eye back then.

Bu-bu-but Apple! What is it with all the whataboutism in this thread?

This is not just about apple. This is about where EU antitrust concentrated their power. They should be focusing on much bigger issues than google search terms. But lately it's been google this, google that, because they can get away with it. They are too lazy to attack big pharma, they give them warnings, but Google, they bust their ass off for 3bn.

Yes, far more.

That's a very uneducated statement.

 

[entremet]

Good, these kinds of megacorps should be bound to some outside regulation.

Lol Americans getting angry about huge companies getting fined, good job.

This is not a good argument for regulation at all.

There are many huge companies. It's how they behave that matters.

People are so quick to defend companies, especially tax dodging ones, ones that earn the most money and also pay the least tax. There's trillions in tax havens from companies like Google, Apple, Amazon, etc. There's more money in tax havens than multiple countries in Europe's GDPs combined, 3bn fine is *nothing* from what they truly should be fined as a business practice. IT companies like Google and Amazon are the largest contributors to this issue.

Also my biggest worry with market dominance like Google is curation. It's a search engine that curates results for you based on search/behavioural patterns and also uses it to serve you ads based on your behaviour. Curated search results is something that should we should be sceptical about by companies like Google because certain sites are also given higher ranking in your results than others depending on your "behaviour". For example, if you search for a particular political topic, certain articles by certain sites will see more prevalent ranking in the results than others, based on your search/behavioural patterns using Google services.

Here's an article also by The Guardian (there are more articles out there covering this) - When algorithms rule our news, should we be worried or relieved?

We also had Facebook recently come out with manual curation of conservative news (yes conservative news sucks but the principle of curation here I have a problem with), curation on the Internet unbeknownst to people can lead to larger problem later on the road because it breeds ignorance. People having liberal or more objective news pushed away from their eyes even seeing it due to curation is very bad for example with Google, since it thinks you rather want to see more articles from breitbart, than maybe the BBC on a particular topic. Certain articles will be more favourably visible than others. I personally hate curation that you can't opt out of or aren't made aware that exists. I want to curate my own interests, not a third party doing it.

What's ironic is that aren't the biggest tax havens in the EU--Ireland for example?

 

[spekkeh]

oh so Google is more powerful than the companies that potentially control your health, crush stock markets and are valued at 1 trillion USD. Or an association that is hellbent to twist anti-consumerist copyright laws, sends illegal copyright notices to european citizens and empowers censorship .

Yes, far more.

 

[ClosingADoor]

So as long as a company doesn't have a marketshare, it's okay to be anti-consumerist?

It depends, there aren't really hard lines for this. But a company having a (near) monopoly can abuse its position a lot easier, so the government will be tougher on them.

Some companies are fined regardless of size of course (see the previous post about cartel fines for example, which is anti-consumer). It really depends on the kind of abuse taking place.

If you don't like Apple, because they wall you in and can't use cheap accessories, you can easily switch to Android. The Google case talked about here is totally different. Google is using it's position to push other companies out of the market in unfair ways by putting their other services first on their search, which has a near monopoly. The two things can't be compared.

This is not just about apple. This is about where EU antitrust concentrated their power. They should be focusing on much bigger issues than google search terms. But lately it's been google this, google that, because they can get away with it. They are too lazy to attack big pharma, they give them warnings, but Google, they bust their ass off for 3bn.

Pharma is being investigated and have been fined in the past. Quick example from 2014 with a fine of 427 million euros http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-14-799_en.htm

 

[entremet]

It depends, there aren't really hard lines for this. But a company having a (near) monopoly can abuse its position a lot easier, so the government will be tougher on them.

Some companies are fined regardless of size of course (see the previous post about cartel fines for example, which is anti-consumer). It really depends on the kind of abuse taking place.

If you don't like Apple, because they wall you in and can't use cheap accessories, you can easily switch to Android. The Google case talked about here is totally different. Google is using it's position to push other companies out of the market in unfair ways by putting their other services first on their search, which has a near monopoly. The two things can't be compared.

Sure, but why should Google promote competitors? Apple doesn't promote Android at all.

Other search services exists, but no one is switching.

 

[raphier]

It depends, there aren't really hard lines for this. But a company having a (near) monopoly can abuse its position a lot easier, so the government will be tougher on them.

Some companies are fined regardless of size of course (see the previous post about cartel fines for example, which is anti-consumer). It really depends on the kind of abuse taking place.

If you don't like Apple, because they wall you in and can't use cheap accessories, you can easily switch to Android. The Google case talked about here is totally different. Google is using it's position to push other companies out of the market in unfair ways by putting their other services first on their search, which has a near monopoly. The two things can't be compared.

How can you people skip Apple's digital music monopoly????

 

[dity]

Laughing at the concept of Apple's App Store being a bigger issue than Google search results. Fucking reaching so damn hard here.

 

[astroturfing]

good, fuck Google. they keep changing my youtube settings without asking me, so i hope this makes them think twice next time.

 

[GAMEPROFF]

How can you people skip Apple's digital music monopoly????

Its pretty easy, I just dont use it. You know, you can download MP3s from other services since 100 years. I usually buy them from Amazon and transfer them via iTunes.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Sure, but why should Google promote competitors? Apple doesn't promote Android at all.

Other search services exists, but no one is switching.

This is not about making people switch search engines. It is about Google abusing it's position (their near monopoly on search) to push their own other services at the expense of other businesses.

How can you people skip Apple's digital music monopoly????

Because the talk was about app stores and thus phones. You didn't mention music. Don't know how much a monopoly on digital music they have. But Apple was fined in the US I think for their ebook prices on iTunes? Current day, there is a lot of competition to iTunes for music. Don't know their market share.

 

[raphier]

Its pretty easy, I just dont use it. You know, you can download MP3s from other services since 100 years. I usually buy them from Amazon and transfer them via iTunes.

and I a can also skip using Google, I use DuckDuckGo or Yandex you know...

 

[GAMEPROFF]

Don't know their market share.

I think they are still Marketleader but Streaming takes more and more from their cake.

 

[spekkeh]

Laughing at the concept of Apple's App Store being a bigger issue than Google search results. Fucking reaching so damn hard here.

Its pretty clear people have no fucking idea what kind of a power Google wields when they control, aggregate and sell on people's information.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Well and I acan also skip using Google, I use DuckDuckGo or Yandex you know...

Again, this it not about consumers unable to switch from Google. This is about unfair business practices by Google in abusing their position on search to push their other services, which push competitors of those other services out of the market.

It is not about competition on search itself.

 

[dity]

How can you people skip Apple's digital music monopoly????

Apple may have 64% of global digital music sales (next greatest is 30ish%), but global music sales are way way down. Meanwhile Spotify has 30 million subscribers. Streaming music makes the most money from the digital music industry.

 

[spekkeh]

Well and I acan also skip using Google, I use DuckDuckGo or Yandex you know...

It's practically physically impossible to skip using Google.

 

[dity]

It's practically physically impossible to skip using Google.

AFAIK DuckDuckGo just uses filtered Google search results.

 

[raphier]

It's practically physically impossible to skip using Google.

oh no, I must be a wizard then and China is and Russia is. Oh em gee.

 

[GAMEPROFF]

oh no, I must be a wizard then and China is and Russia is. Oh em gee.

At least you tell us when it makes no sense to further discuss with you.
Thank you, you saved me a lot of time!

 

[raphier]

At least you tell us when it makes no sense to further discuss with you.
Thank you, you saved me a lot of time!

How can it be practically, physically impossible to skip Google, please educate me?

 

[dity]

oh no, I must be a wizard then and China is and Russia is. Oh em gee.

Those are countries that force their citizens to use a local product. Google China had a 30% market share before their government actively fucked with access to the search engine.

 

[ClosingADoor]

How can it be practically, physically impossible to skip Google, please educate me?

What does it have to do with this case? Nothing.

 

[raphier]

Those are countries that force their citizens to use a local product. Google China had a 30% market share before their government actively fucked with access to the search engine.

30% is still pretty damn low. Nobody is forcing anyonw in Russia. People prefer Rambler and Yandex, because it's russian. Just like they prefer Vkontakte rather than Facebook.

What does it have to do with this case? Nothing.

then why make it an argument?

 

[dity]

30% is still pretty damn low. Nobody is forcing anyonw in Russia. People prefer Rambler and Yandex, because it's russian. Just like they prefer Vkontakte rather than Facebook.

And yet Russia determined Google to be a monopoly as well, and Google lost its case.

 

[F1Fan]

I don't see a problem. Google and a lot of other companies have no ground for complaints.

Keep avoiding taxes and we will keep finding bullshit reasons to fine you. Just a shame it is only 3 billion.

Our continent, our rules. We should also fine them another 3 billion for using color blue in the letter G of their name.

Got no sympathy for tax avoiding companies.

 

[Deleted member 13876]

They are. Quick look for cartel fines for example http://ec.europa.eu/competition/cartels/cases/cases.html

Riberebro - Spain
Philips - Netherlands
Express Interfracht - Austria
Huhtamäki - Finland
Nespak - Fance
Vitembal - France
Silver Plastics - Germany
Coopbox - Italy
Magic Pack - Italy
Sirap-Gema - Italy
Linpac - UK
Ovarpack - Portugal
Propack - UK
Eberspächer - Germany
Webasto - Germany
ICAP - UK
Bong - Sweden
GPV - France
Hamelin - France
Mayer-Kuvert - Germany
Tompla - Spain

That was 2015. I can go on for a while.

Magnitude is smaller of course, since they are smaller companies. That is only logical. A fine should be based on the size of the company, or it wouldn't hurt.

Edit: And the biggest ones: http://ec.europa.eu/competition/cartels/statistics/statistics.pdf

Including:

Saint Gobain - France
Philips - Netherlands
Deutsche Bank - Germany
F. Hoffmann-La Roche - Switzerland
Siemens - Germany
Schaeffler - Germany
Pilkington - UK
E.ON - Germany
GDF Suez - France

Actually, among the 10 highest cartel fines here, 9 are European.

Admirable. But I wouldn't have bothered myself. This is not the first time people have shown him such a list. He'll show up like clockwork in the next thread and claim the same thing.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

And yet Russia determined Google to be a monopoly as well, and Google lost its case.

next you're gonna tell me chinese court is biased.

 

[dity]

next you're gonna tell me chinese court is biased.

:O

 

[Dascu]

What's ironic is that aren't the biggest tax havens in the EU--Ireland for example?

I don't think this is the case on a global level. That aside, the EU is recently cracking down on tax avoidance and evasion, and doing its best to close loop-holes regarding tax rulings and such. The Commission is doing several investigations into fraudulent tax behaviour by big companies, the Parliament is having regular hearings with representatives from those companies named in LuxLeaks and now Panama Papers, and the Council is setting up information-exchange platforms and implementing a more stricter version of the OECD's BEPS guidelines. That said, tax is not an EU competence per se, so the Commission cannot force member states to change their law (contrary to antitrust which is an internal market competence).

 

[this_guy]

VW because of the emission cheating is facing up to an 18 (?) bn$ fine

That actually is harmful to people - not to just people who buy those products but everyone around. How are Google's search queries harmful to consumers?

 

[dity]

That actually is harmful to people - not to just people who buy those products but everyone around. How are Google's search queries harmful to consumers?

This isn't about consumers.

 

[this_guy]

This isn't about consumers.

We know - it's a money grab by the EU.