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Greece Agreement Reached

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Can we stop with the hilarous blame shifting ?

Noone forced them to falsify financial reports and noone forced them to take more debt that they can pay.
The idea that ND cooked their books gained a lot of inflation the past few years, so much that it overshadows what actually happened and its context, like how most european nations mysteriously also got their budget ratios over the supposed limit.
 

tokkun

Member
I have been following the Greece threads off and on, and I want to bring up an element to a lot of the arguments that have been made over the previous weeks that bothers me: namely the idea that we should believe that Germany saw the end result of these Southern European countries' admission into the Euro coming but that Greece, et al. did not.

Part of what makes me uncomfortable is the underlying implication that the Germans are just smarter and cleverer and the Greeks are like some hapless children that need to be protected from themselves. It seems like people are denouncing this Northern European superiority / Southern European inferiority prejudice in one breath while subconsciously reinforcing it in another.

The other part is a certain element of hypocrisy in the anger about the troika telling Greece how it needs to run its economy, while also suggesting that they should have protected Greece from itself and not let it enter the Euro. It's a position that espouses self determination at one moment and then does a 180 and espouses paternalism when it suits the argument better. Do we portray the Greeks as capable of efficiently implementing reforms on its own, or do we portray them as an inept group that got hoodwinked by Goldman Sachs? I don't think you can have it both ways.

I remember that last time around, when we were arguing about the 2nd bailout, there was much more sentiment that corruption in the Greek government was to blame. Although I hesitate a bit about such an obviously populist argument that also seems to seek out scapegoats, it is at least logically consistent to argue that the Greek government could see the impending trouble coming but knew that spending beyond their means could lead to short-term prosperity and would be politically popular. It fits nicely with the present day argument that, from the perspective of the creditor nations, this enforced austerity is more about populism and political expediency at home than long-term economic sense.

At an emotional level, I certainly feel more comfortable thinking about Europe's problems as being rooted in the challenges of maintaining fiscal unity without political unity and the conflict between long-term economic needs vs short-term political needs as opposed to implying that it is modern-day colonialism, with predation by "more capable" Europeans on "less capable" ones.
 

petran79

Banned
Poor Greece is another country being bullied by the EU. They voted no on a deal and a deal was agreed anyway. Now Tsipras has been asked to step down so the EU can place another puppet. It's worrying when the EU can remove democratically elected leaders like Mr Papandreou from a country that taught us about democracy.

Greece were also bullied by the US. There was a plan to assasinate former prime minister Karamanlis because he wanted to agree with the Russians regarding a gas pipe, back in 2007. An investigation unveiled tampering with the military helicopter that was supposed to carry him. Also another scandal where Siemens was involved, was secretly recording the prime ministers phone conversation. The Greeks can do this themselves, they dont need foreign aid!
 

oti

Banned
Grexit's Black Bible

Kathimerini say they have the exclusive scoop on the EU commission's secret plan for a Grexit.

The plan was supposedly composed in under a month by 15 people. It is supposed to outline proceedings of a Grexit and Greece leaving Schengen (details on 200 subcets concerning a member leaving the euro zone).

Two juicy details:
- The plan is locked in a safe near Juncker's office
- If the plan was to go through, one could hear tanks rolling through the streets of Athens (says a guy who's supposedly in the know)

The full article will be in tomorrow's Kathimerini.

http://www.skai.gr/mobile/article?aid=286719

I don't know, take that as you will.
 

scamander

Banned
^
Now, that's ridiculous. There is no reason why Greece should leave Schengen and in no way would any Western country (let alone 27 of them) invade another one in 2015.
 

Nikodemos

Member
Whose tanks? The Greek Army's? 'Cause the Union has no armed forces of its own, due to various small details, like not agreeing on what language should be used for ordering soldiers around.
 

jorma

is now taking requests
Who's tanks?

I figured the image was to conjure greek military putting down uprisings in the streets

Unless this story is completely fabricated. Not even Schäuble is angry enough to think that rolling the German tanks into Greece is a good idea :)
 

Theonik

Member
I figured the image was to conjure greek military putting down uprisings in the streets

Unless this story is completely fabricated. Not even Schäuble is angry enough to think that rolling the German tanks into Greece is a good idea :)
The Greeks would just respond by rolling their own German tanks on the street.
 

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
No way. Greeks are to lazy to drive tanks.

And the Germans made them sell their tanks anyway.
 

oti

Banned
I figured the image was to conjure greek military putting down uprisings in the streets

Unless this story is completely fabricated. Not even Schäuble is angry enough to think that rolling the German tanks into Greece is a good idea :)

The placement of the smiley is weirding me out.
 

Chariot

Member
I figured the image was to conjure greek military putting down uprisings in the streets

Unless this story is completely fabricated. Not even Schäuble is angry enough to think that rolling the German tanks into Greece is a good idea :)
This guy wanted german Panzers regularly on german streets, don't underestimate how far he would go. Of course he doesn't have the power to ever do this, but he would if he could, definitly.
 

Syriel

Member
This guy wanted german Panzers regularly on german streets, don't underestimate how far he would go. Of course he doesn't have the power to ever do this, but he would if he could, definitly.

Can't hold that against him. Not everyone can live in Russia.

1359404320_tank_crossing.gif


If you could drive a tank down the street, you know you would. :p
 

Tugatrix

Member
This guy wanted german Panzers regularly on german streets, don't underestimate how far he would go. Of course he doesn't have the power to ever do this, but he would if he could, definitly.

1403.gif


That one tops Manuel Ferreira Leite wanting to suspend democracy for six months
 

Piecake

Member
Greece got into this, because they massively overspent in a period of low interest rates. Those low interest rates were caused by the adoption of the Euro, but that's a positive (lower borrowing costs), so I don't see how that could be a point to criticize the Euro(zone).
It's true that capital inflows were huge for countries like Spain, Greece etc. until roughly ~2008ish, but it's not like these countries didn't know that this is a bubble that will ultimately have to burst. But instead of trying to get control of the situation (in Spain by, for example, raising taxes on new homes), those countries just continued like there'll be no issue in the future. Obviously that resulted in higher wages, higher inflation rates and higher GDP growth rates (and levels) - until the bubble burst.

The problem is that the capital flows into Southern Europe were much too massive for those nations to handle. It far exceeded the IMFs guidelines where a nation should be worried about instability. The problem is that the IMF, the lenders, and the governments borrowing the money did not see this as an issue because of the Eurozone. They thought the Eurozone protected them.

I think it is a bit unfair and completely unrealistic to blame politicians who are massively benefiting from a shit ton of foreign money pouring into their country when everyone is saying that it isnt a problem. So no, these governments did not realize it was going to burst since neither did the IMF or the Northern European banks lending them and buying all of these Southern European bonds realize this. Northern European governments certainly didnt realize this, or else they would have put a stop to their banks lending them a shit ton of money, since that put their economy, their financial institutions and their tax payers at a huge risk as well

As for housing bubbles in Southern Europe

The third disturbing trend was that the flow of capital into peripheral Europe encouraged residential construction, not fixed investment. Residential construction does little to enhance productivity. The surge in residential construction should have been a warning sign.
-Hall of Mirrors by Barry Eichengreen

The footnote to support that claim reads

The larger the capital inflow, the larger the cumulative increase in real property prices, and the greater the rise in construction activity, as documented by Obstfeld and Rogoff (2010)

So no, in this case it wasn't a positive because too much capital was flowing into Southern Europe.

I mean, why not blame Germany and Northern European nations as well? Shouldnt they have seen that massive lending to Southern Europe and their banks being leveraged 25-40 to 1 is just insane? European banks loan to deposit ratio was also 175%, far in excess of banks in the United States - meaning that Northern European banks were borrowing from America as Southern Europe was borrowing from Northern Europe - which was then used to fund speculative investments. Shouldnt Northern European governments seen this as a catastrophic risk and put a stop to it, especially since many of these banks were almost as big or bigger than many European countries' gdp?

Should we blame them for their now obvious deluded idea that Northern and Southern per capita income would converge, meaning that Southern bond prices would rake in huge profits once that happened? Should we blame the German government for refusing to take steps to increase its consumption that helped fuel this massive lending to Southern Europe? This article can explain it better than me

The eurozone crisis is often called a debt crisis. But, in fact, Europe as a whole did not have an external debt problem, but an internal one: German surpluses and mounting debt in Europe’s periphery were two sides of the same coin.German surpluses and mounting debt in Europe’s periphery were two sides of the same coin. Germans saved (a lot), and the single currency induced them — rather than save less or invest it at home — to lend it to their eurozone trading partners, which used the money to buy German goods. By 2007, Germany’s trade surplus had reached 195 billion euros, three-fifths of which came from inside the eurozone. Berlin might call this “thrift,” but it’s hard to argue that Germany’s excess savings, which its banks often struggled to put to use, were well invested. Instead, they gave Germans the illusion of prosperity, trading real work (reflected in GDP) for paper IOUs that might never be repaid.

Something needed to change, but what? Normally, each country would pursue its own monetary policy, relying on exchange rate adjustments to shift the locus of demand from those that could not afford it to those that could. Under a single currency, though, this could not happen. Instead, Europe’s debtors were forced to slash demand, through a combination of fiscal austerity and debt deleveraging. Their trade deficits with Germany fell dramatically — but by buying less, not selling more. All of the so-called PIIGS (Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece, and Spain) saw their total trade with Germany shrink — in the case of Greece and Ireland, by more than one-third. So, to the extent Europe rebalanced, it did so at the cost of growth.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/02/20/its-time-to-kick-germany-out-of-the-eurozone/

So yea, I think it is unfair to blame a few nations more when basically every government, every bank, every investor, and every economist fucked up.
 

Ikael

Member
The Greeks must have really believed that the referendum was not about a Grexit.

The thing that infuriates me about Syriza is how they told their electorate again and again and again that Greece could default on their debt (and thus, end with the austerity) yet stay inside the Euro, as if these two objectives were even remotely compatible, as if a Grexit was completely out of the picture. They flat out lied their voters. So yes, they were absolutely convinced that the referendum was not about a Grexit but rather about showing defiance against further austerity policies.

The Greeks should decide if they want to stay inside the Euro under these conditions, or leave and return to the Drachma (best long term solution, even if it would be painful in the short term, IMHO). It is indeed a hard decision, but at least a realistic, honest one.
 

Maledict

Member
England will vote out. Scotland will vote to stay in. Interesting times are ahead.

No it won't. Polling shows greater support for staying in the EU now than in years across all countries in the UK - including England. When you add in that Cameron will be campaigning to stay in, and his deliberately lowball demands for change, you can see that the entire referendum is an attempt by him to lance the boil when in comes to Europe in the Conservative party.

Neither England nor the UK will vote to leave the EU.
 

chadskin

Member
France proposes eurozone 'government'
French leader Francois Hollande said in Le Journal du Dimanche that the eurozone should have its own "government", and "specific budget", with "democratic control" by the European Parliament. He added that France is ready to form a "vanguard" with other euro states which decide to press ahead with the project.
https://euobserver.com/tickers/129693

See, something good may come out of this after all. :)
 

Chariot

Member
Mind giving a link for that?
Key word: Bundeswehr im Innern.

http://www.taz.de/!5174817/

He couldn't get it completely through, so tanks can now be used on order of the minister of defense during emergency situations like asumed terror attacks or demonstrations (they couldn't before). And his wet dreams was of course to have them avaible and commandable by the defemse minister at any time without ever needing to confirm with the parliament.

http://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2014-04/verfassung-bundeswehr-einsatz-terroranschlag-abschuss
 

Kathian

Banned
We are not ready for that

All you need is to rip the Eurozone from the EU (everyone should get behind this tbh, we can't risk the EU for Eurozone issues) and set up a Parliament that is elected by the already elected officials of Member States. One state one vote.

Whatever happens a form of tax has to be made. Eurozone needs a National Insurance set up to some degree.
 
Key word: Bundeswehr im Innern.

http://www.taz.de/!5174817/

He couldn't get it completely through, so tanks can now be used on order of the minister of defense during emergency situations like asumed terror attacks or demonstrations (they couldn't before). And his wet dreams was of course to have them avaible and commandable by the defemse minister at any time without ever needing to confirm with the parliament.

http://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2014-04/verfassung-bundeswehr-einsatz-terroranschlag-abschuss


It seems like neither of those planned changes went through, though. Article 35 GG (the one both articles write about) hasn't been changed since 1972.
 

Chariot

Member
Yeah it's going to be great - now everyone will have to bend to whatever France and Germany say without ability to say no.
As a german I fail to see the problem :^)

It seems like neither of those planned changes went through, though. Article 35 GG (the one both articles write about) hasn't been changed since 1972.
Karlsruhe erlaubt Bundeswehr-Einsätze im Inland (2012)

It's still very restricted, buy my point was anyways that Schäuble is a dangerous man with a dangerous mind. I totally would expect that he would send tanks into Athens the minute he would be able to do so.
 
Euro zone government?
No thanks..
In principle is a good idea, but ultimately do you think hollande or merkel or any influent member of this possible "cabinet" would EVER produce something STRONGLY against their own nation?
Who will monitor the monitors is indeed the oldest paradox and One that will forever stay strong...
You know how national leader are continuosly under scrutiny for favourably being done directly or indirectly?
Imagine that on a whole bigger level..
Frankly i don't see us being ready any time soon for a solution like that..
 

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
Currently, we don't have a dedicated anti-Euro party in Germany anymore. The AfD disintegrated because it had also attacked xenophobic members and their agendas. But its most prominent original founder is currently founding a new "liberal" (although even that guy is never ever socially liberal, only economically liberal) anti-Euro party.

The AfD hat some sizable success during the state elections over the last few years, but barely failed to get into the Bundestag during the last federal elections. Wonder if the situation for a anti-Euro party has become even better now.
 

ElTorro

I wanted to dominate the living room. Then I took an ESRAM in the knee.
Paul Krugman: "I may have overestimated the competence of the Greek government"
http://cnnpressroom.blogs.cnn.com/2...mated-the-competence-of-the-greek-government/

Krugman on assuming that Greece had an exit plan from the Euro: “…it didn’t even occur to me that they would be prepared to make a stand without having done any contingency planning ...amazingly - they thought they could simply demand better terms without having any backup plan. So certainly this is a shock. But, you know, in some sense, it’s hopeless in any case. …it’s not as if the terms that they were being offered before were feasible. I mean, the new terms are even worse, but the terms they were being offered before were still not going to work. So I, you know, I may have overestimated the competence of the Greek government.”

f8Ng3rg.png
 

Neo C.

Member
I wonder how much money and revenue the Greeks have lost because of these few months, actually and potentially. Regaining trust is expensive as fuck, for the state as well as for businesses.
 
Krugman's interview brings up no surprise. He'd already said nearly exactly that a week ago.

1. Tsipras apparently allowed himself to be convinced, some time ago, that euro exit was completely impossible. It appears that Syriza didn’t even do any contingency planning for a parallel currency (I hope to find out that this is wrong). This left him in a hopeless bargaining position. I’m even hearing from people who should know that Ambrose Evans-Pritchard is right, that he hoped to lose the referendum, to give an excuse for capitulation.

And then, of course, the varou and the dude from the left interviews came out and confirmed that.

I wonder how much money and revenue the Greeks have lost because of these few months, actually and potentially. Regaining trust is expensive as fuck, for the state as well as for businesses.

Won't happen. There'll always be something. That's the purpose of the trust narrative.
 

Theonik

Member
The Germans should understand the trust narrative for the populist disingenuous nonsense it is!

Even today whenever Germany does something that displeases anyone they just bring up the war for max damage.
 
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