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[JB1981]

Nice thorough explanation but I wish the team would make better games. KZ SF singleplayer is an incoherent mess.

 

[MidBoss]

On transparency: I don't think devs should be expected to just make public something that could be considered a trade secret. This is basically new tech. Although, no one really owns techniques like OOP/FRP either. I just think it's stupid that this gets introduced because of resolutiongate. Good for the industry though.

 

[Jack cw]

Ok, let's see:

A: 1920x800 game pixles + 1920x280 black pixles (no game info) IS native 1080p

B: 1600x900 game pixles + 320x180 artificial pixles (game info) IS NOT native 1080p

Right?

Both are not RENDERED at native 1080p! That's my point ... and I know A would be sharper than B, but still both are not native 1080p

btw. I don't have a XBO, neither a PS4 so chill out and watch out with your judgement

so what does the buffer of each XBO game have to do with native 1080p ???

The XBO sends a native 1920x1080 progressive signal to the TV ... so it's also native 1080p ?

No it's not ? aha, I see fanboy talks ...

Oh god. I'm bored of this trolling... Have fun with it, I guess I'm getting too old for this.

 

[angrygnat]

Sounds like a slippery explanation.

Just because you don't understand it doesn't mean its shady.

 

[_hekk05]

This is upscaling, so by this logic, GT5 and GT6 are also native 1080p.

Doesn't seem like its the same thing. With upscaling, you actually know how to position your pixels.

GG's technique seems like its only rendering every other line, then it looks at the previous 1080p constructed frame, and uses it as a reference to fill in the blanks.

We need some new words to describe this technique that's for sure

 

[Metfanant]

Ok, let's see:

A: 1920x800 game pixles + 1920x280 black pixles (no game info) IS native 1080p

B: 1600x900 game pixles + 320x180 artificial pixles (game info) IS NOT native 1080p

Right?

Both are not RENDERED at native 1080p! That's my point ... and I know A would be sharper than B, but still both are not native 1080p

btw. I don't have a XBO, neither a PS4 so chill out and watch out with your judgement

the problem with your argument is that...are you prepared to then throw almost the entire blu-ray movie catalog into the "not 1080p" bin??...because if youre going down the route that The Order is NOT 1080p...then thats where youre going...

 

[mrklaw]

Good response and interesting technique. Wonder if their GDC talk will be made available online


Good point about how various effects like alpha and AO are often calculated and rendered at lower than native resolution.

 

[plagiarize]

i really don't understand why some of you expected the back of the box to say... what? something like,

"Game resolution in multiplayer: 1080p*

*certain portions of the full 1080p image were created using super programming kungfu timetravelling pixels, so it may not be exactly what you expect normally"

Like, really? guess what most of videogames is smoke and mirrors. There's no wool here.

This is why the gaming audience is so tiresome occasionally.. Guerrilla were probably really proud of the celver solution they used to get nearly 60Hz at 1080p in multi and yet the fans scream YOU LIED TO US. It's bullshit frankly. On our part.

I just expect some transparency going forwards. Developers are, more and more, announcing ahead of time what resolution their game is rendering at. That's a good thing. What I'd like is a developer to go on the record (I don't care how... twitter... interview... press release) and state 'we're outputting 1080p using the same method as Shadow Fall MP' or something similar.

Literally all I would like to see is some transparency. Next time a game uses this, we'll recognize the technique here on GAF. If the developer has claimed the game is 1080p and not mentioned that they're using this technique it won't go unnoticed, and the developer will face the same kind of upset that Guerrilla faced.

More transparency about rendering resolutions is a good thing. That's all I'm saying. I'm not throwing around emotional reactions to anything here.

 

[Neuromancer]

Oh yeah, history pixels. I always thought thats what they were using.

 

[_hekk05]

Ok, let's see:

A: 1920x800 game pixles + 1920x280 black pixles (no game info) IS native 1080p

B: 1600x900 game pixles + 320x180 artificial pixles (game info) IS NOT native 1080p

Right?

Both are not RENDERED at native 1080p! That's my point ... and I know A would be sharper than B, but still both are not native 1080p

btw. I don't have a XBO, neither a PS4 so chill out and watch out with your judgement

If the 1920x800 pixel image has the same image density as a 1920x1080 image, it is considered 1080p, just with a different aspect ratio. Bluerays have been 1080p without being 1920x1080 since forever.

 

[benny_a]

On transparency: I don't think devs should be expected to just make public something that could be considered a trade secret. This is basically new tech. Although, no one really owns techniques like OOP/FRP either. I just think it's stupid that this gets introduced because of resolutiongate. Good for the industry though.

This industry is relatively good about sharing stuff, so if the results are considered good enough then it will be adopted. If the results aren't good enough then other avenues will be pursued.

Oh yeah, history pixels. I always thought thats what they were using.

GG's new IP is a World War 2 shooter confirmed.

 

[stryke]

Good response and interesting technique. Wonder if their GDC talk will be made available online

At least the slides will be. I wish I could access everything in the GDC Vault.

 

[teiresias]

The amount of people that never realized the entire pipeline isn't 1080p in practically every game is astounding. That they act like this is some kind of revelation or validation of the Xbone's shortcomings is even more astounding.

 

[BibiMaghoo]

I'm ok with this response.

They are saying both why they refer to it as native, and then why it can be referred to as non-native. Agree or disagree, at least they made their position clear.

 

[Canis lupus]

The image signal which is send to the TV is 1080p, meas it counts 1920x1080 progressive pixels.

But the film information is held/stored only on 1920x800 pixels, means 280 black pixels are there, to fill up the full resolution to 1920x1080, but these pixles do not hold any information about the movie.

In your mindset a movie in 1920x280 with solid black bars a 400 pixels each would be also 1080p, just because the output signal of the BD player is 1920x1080 progressive.

So what you're saying is that The Order is 1080p too.

 

[Metfanant]

Good response and interesting technique. Wonder if their GDC talk will be made available online


Good point about how various effects like alpha and AO are often calculated and rendered at lower than native resolution.

it says right in the article that they will be making it available after the show....

 

[TyrantII]

So KZ is rendering 960x1080 frame and interpolating it with last two frames to get native 1080p.

Ryse is rendering 1600x900 frame and interpolate it (from current frame) to get native 1080p. (They dont use hw scaler)

But somehow one is considered native and other is not...why is that? What is the difference?

PS ryse is just an example. Same thing was with Battlefield 4 or any other sub 1080 game

Ryse bypassed the hardware scaler with their own to get around the gamma, filter, and black crush issues on the XB1 hardware scaler. DICE did the same on the release version of BF. Its still a standard upscale, and just stretching the image.

 

[Dragon]

All of you – give me an example of what they should have said. Please.

Like, what they should have said in interviews, what should be on the box, all of it. I am very curious.

Give an example of what they should have said? Sorry not following, wouldn't it be exactly what they said in this Q/A?

 

[plagiarize]

the problem with your argument is that...are you prepared to then throw almost the entire blu-ray movie catalog into the "not 1080p" bin??...because if youre going down the route that The Order is NOT 1080p...then thats where youre going...

1080p followed by the aspect ratio is clear. That's how blu-rays are labelled, and no shit storms occur. Some people go 'wah black bars on my TV', but they don't go 'WAH THIS ISN'T 1080P'.

again, 1080p @ 2.39:1 tells us the whole story, just as 1080p @ 4:3 does. Only one has 1080 lines of content. Neither is without black bars. BOTH offer 1:1 pixel mapping on a 1080p TV set.

The order is 1080p @ 2.39:1. That tells us that no scaling is taking place, and that we have black bars. I haven't heard anyone tell me why the standard nomenclature used for describing this thing on blu-rays isn't good enough for gaming.

 

[Oppo]

I just expect some transparency going forwards. Developers are, more and more, announcing ahead of time what resolution their game is rendering at. That's a good thing. What I'd like is a developer to go on the record (I don't care how... twitter... interview... press release) and state 'we're outputting 1080p using the same method as Shadow Fall MP' or something similar.

Literally all I would like to see is some transparency. Next time a game uses this, we'll recognize the technique here on GAF. If the developer has claimed the game is 1080p and not mentioned that they're using this technique it won't go unnoticed, and the developer will face the same kind of upset that Guerrilla faced.

More transparency about rendering resolutions is a good thing. That's all I'm saying. I'm not throwing around emotional reactions to anything here.

But how far down that rabbit hole are they supposed to go? Most people would have no comprehension of the explanation, nor care. It's fine for a technical interview but acting as if Guerrilla was somehow disingenuous is absurd.

Real time videogames use a crazy bewildering number of techniques to achieve what they do. Hey guess what? Those polygon people? They're hollow! Nothing in them! Nothing but lies!

I dunno. GAF has gone berserk over this whole absurd resultion gate thing, from the X1 right through to this now. I do expect a 1080p image from my consoles at this point, but really I see nothing about this particular method that Guerrilla used in MP that runs afoul. Hell, GAF usually says "fuck rez, I want framerate" – which is just what they did, and managed to keep some of the rez in tact alongside it, and they are getting shit upon.

Give an example of what they should have said? Sorry not following, wouldn't it be exactly what they said in this Q/A?

This supposes that Guerrilla considers this to be a "trick", which they probaby do not. Neither do I. It's a technique, and a novel one, but it's not a lie. It's just not.

 

[8byte]

The main point here is that we rightfully give developers shit if they don't give us enough information or even mislead us. Conversely, we should appreciate when they respond to Internet outrage, because this encourages them to take notice and to respond to the community in the future.

Really? So every developer should explain the technical process behind their rendering techniques whenever they are asked what resolution their games run?

Fucking hell...pitiful.

 

[Messofanego]

There should now be a time travel pixel game.

 

[Rainy Dog]

All of you – give me an example of what they should have said. Please.

Like, what they should have said in interviews, what should be on the box, all of it. I am very curious.

I know what you're getting at and agree to a degree. Developers have no duty to share this stuff with us whatsoever.

But the point is that resolution was and still very much is a hot topic, and they (or Sony PR) did actually state that MP runs at 'native 1080p' at one point. They'd have been better just saying nothing and it might've even stayed under wraps for a long time. But even then, would've still have seemed somewhat disingenuous in retrospect when it did come to light given the all the resolution fuss.

 

[Metfanant]

1080p followed by the aspect ratio is clear. That's how blu-rays are labelled, and no shit storms occur. Some people go 'wah black bars on my TV', but they don't go 'WAH THIS ISN'T 1080P'.

again, 1080p @ 2.39:1 tells us the whole story, just as 1080p @ 4:3 does. Only one has 1080 lines of content. Neither is without black bars. BOTH offer 1:1 pixel mapping on a 1080p TV set.

The order is 1080p @ 2.39:1. That tells us that no scaling is taking place, and that we have black bars. I haven't heard anyone tell me why the standard nomenclature used for describing this thing on blu-rays isn't good enough for gaming.

agree 110%

 

[chadskin]

Ryse bypassed the hardware scaler with their own to get around the gamma, filter, and black crush issues on the XB1 hardware scaler. DICE did the same on the release version of BF. Its still a standard upscale, and just stretching the image.

Exactly. It's interpolating pixel information based on the neighboring pixels, a completely different story from the method Guerrilla uses.

 

[Oppo]

I know what you're getting at and agree to a degree. Developers have no duty to share this stuff with us whatsoever.

But the point is that resolution was and still very much is a hot topic, and they (or Sony PR) did actually state that MP runs at 'native 1080p' at one point. They'd have been better just saying nothing and it might've even stayed under wraps for a long time. But even then, would've still have seemed somewhat disingenuous in retrospect when it did come to light given the all the resolution fuss.

I suppose. They don't owe us anything but the game. This is PR now.

and on this note

Nice thorough explanation but I wish the team would make better games. KZ SF singleplayer is an incoherent mess.

I am going to step away now as I chose to not associate myself with such smooth, creamy shitposting.

 

[Saty]

There's nothing lazy about this technique. Its far easier to just render at a lower resolution and call it a day.

What would you say if all developers who are targeting 1080p on consoles will now use this method to achieve it early on in the project on the expense of exploring the possibilities to achieve true native 1080p rendering through-and-through?

 

[AstroNut325]

Appreciate GG for doing this and trying something new. But rendering only half the frame and interpolating the rest is not native 1080p rendering.

 

[mrklaw]

Do we call games 540p if they use quarter res shadows, or alpha blending, or ambient occlusion? Or does it still count as 1080p because the end result is 1920x1080 new pixels being calculated and drawn, which also happens in KZ?

Maybe we need to get new concepts:

1080p *on all pipelines
1080p *on some pipelines <--- Most games

Fixed for you

 

[Stallion Free]

Really? So every developer should explain the technical process behind their rendering techniques whenever they are asked what resolution their games run?

Fucking hell...pitiful.

I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting transparency. It gets a little old have the peak FPS listed as the actual FPS. Tons of people commented about the softness of multiplayer in KZSF on this board. What did GG accomplish by twisting definitions up till now?

Do we call games 540p if they use quarter res shadows, or alpha blending, or ambient occlusion? Or does it still count as 1080p because the end result is 1920x1080 new pixels being calculated and drawn, which also happens in KZ?

Specific effects =/= whole entire "new information" frame.

 

[Terbinator]

Really? So every developer should explain the technical process behind their rendering techniques whenever they are asked what resolution their games run?

Fucking hell...pitiful.

Or they can use GG's own yard-stick of: 'is it a full 1080p pipline, if yes Pass Go, if not then what is it?'.

 

[MikeHaggar]

i'm not sure what the big deal is here. at the end of the day, they are still outputting 1920x1080 pixels. they are using some "tricks" to calculate the value of some of those pixels, but they aren't rendering a sub-1080p image and upscaling it. i think it's fair to say the mp runs at native 1080p.

 

[plagiarize]

But how far down that rabbit hole are they supposed to go? Most people would have no comprehension of the explanation, nor care. It's fine for a technical interview but acting as if Guerrilla was somehow disingenuous is absurd.

Real time videogames use a crazy bewildering number of techniques to achieve what they do. Hey guess what? Those polygon people? They're hollow! Nothing in them! Nothing but lies!

I dunno. GAF has gone berserk over this whole absurd resultion gate thing, from the X1 right through to this now. I do expect a 1080p image from my consoles at this point, but really I see nothing about this particular method that Guerrilla used in MP that runs afoul. Hell, GAF usually says "fuck rez, I want framerate" &#8211; which is just what they did, and managed to keep some of the rez in tact alongside it, and they are getting shit upon.


This supposes that Guerrilla considers this to be a "trick", which they probaby do not. Neither do I. It's a technique, and a novel one, but it's not a lie. It's just not.

I've told you exactly how far down that 'rabbit hole' they should go. I don't bite off on slippery slope arguments. When a game is released in stereoscopic 3D, I expect to be told if they are using reprojection to create the two views, or if they are rendering them both out. I'm pretty sure we knew that reprojection was being used for Arkham City, Crysis 2, Gears of War 3 and others at or before launch. I'm pretty sure we knew before launch that Killzone 3, Uncharted 3, Motorstorm Apocolypse and Halo Anniversary were not using reprojection.

that's all I'd like to know. tell me if you are using scaling, interpolation or reprojection before launch so I can make an informed decision.

that's it. I'm not asking you give up all your rendering secrets. Guerrilla spoke at length about various techniques they were using for their game. Why they failed to mention this one is anyone's guess, but not doing so hasn't done them any favors.

 

[EGOMON]

I'm not? Except you seemingly claimed that:

When in fact it was.

My point is that KZSF MP doesn't look (again am not say it is native 1080p) upscaled or sub-1080p,otherwise we would have ton of threads complaining about it at launch not 5 months after.

 

[NaDannMaGoGo]

Really? So every developer should explain the technical process behind their rendering techniques whenever they are asked what resolution their games run?

Fucking hell...pitiful.

If they're overselling it, yes.

 

[BibiMaghoo]

Really? So every developer should explain the technical process behind their rendering techniques whenever they are asked what resolution their games run?

Fucking hell...pitiful.

To be fair, when they have claimed something to be native 1080p, when it is not by the standard definition, The onus is on them to make the explanation, as they have here. There is nothing pitiful about misleading your customers and having them ask for an explanation. One they have now given. The details are only of import here because they said one thing that was not entirely accurate.

 

[Terbinator]

i'm not sure what the big deal is here. at the end of the day, they are still outputting 1920x1080 pixels. they are using some "tricks" to calculate the value of some of those pixels, but they aren't rendering a sub-1080p image and upscaling it. i think it's fair to say the mp runs at native 1080p.

But they are as far as what 1080p conventionally means and compared to their own SP game.

My point is that KZSF MP doesn't look like upscaled or sub-1080p, otherwise we would have ton of threads complaining about it at launch not 5 months after.

And my point is that those threads were there at launch, they were just brushed aside due to the 1080p rhetoric.

 

[Leb]

Do we call games 540p if they use quarter res shadows, or alpha blending, or ambient occlusion? Or does it still count as 1080p because the end result is 1920x1080 new pixels being calculated and drawn, which also happens in KZ?

Yes, the comparison here is both highly instructive and strictly analogous.

 

[MarkMclovin]

2014. Where gamers just can't enjoy games anymore.

 

[Demon Ice]

Sounds like a slippery explanation.

Because he explained the technique step by step? It's render tech, stop trying to politicize it.

 

[DoYouEvenLift?]

2014. Where gamers just can't enjoy games anymore.

This started long before 2014.

 

[TyrantII]

So by GGs first definition does this mean that 1080i is really just 1080p, flipping the interlacing from horizontal to vertical, correct? Is there any explaination as to why interlacing on the vertical looks better than interlacing horizontally? I don't own FZ:SF (being an XB1 owner) however I would say the technology put in place by GG does (in my eyes) look better than standard upscaling from watching it being played at a friends and having a bash myself.

The game is interlacing but within the same frame. So there are 1920 lines in each frame, 1/2 are calcd / predicted instead of rendered.

1080i is completely different (960 lines in one frame with dead space, the opposite 960 lines in the next frame with previous lines dead space)

 

[zzz79]

the problem with your argument is that...are you prepared to then throw almost the entire blu-ray movie catalog into the "not 1080p" bin??...because if youre going down the route that The Order is NOT 1080p...then thats where youre going...

1080p does not mean native 1080p for games (that's what I'm trying to say)

don't give a sh... about 1080p for BD movies, regardless to the aspect ratio, a BD movie is not rendered but recorded on a certain resolution, there fore there is no link to the term "native"

the term "native" is relevant for games ... and I didn't came up with BD movies in this discussion

 

[Ridesh]

Okay, Guerrilla, please don't use this technique again, or improve it, as it makes the mp portion of the game a blurry mess. Battlefield 4 being 900p, has a much more pleasant IQ.
Thanks.

 

[plagiarize]

2014. Where gamers just can't enjoy games anymore.

any other completely fabricated and baseless comments you want to share? this is a technical discussion about a game that many people have enjoyed. we can discuss rendering techniques and have preferences about them, while still being able to enjoy the game on its merits as a piece of entertainment.

if I said I preferred directors to shoot on film or on digital, would you think I don't or can't enjoy the films shot using the technique I don't prefer?

 

[MikeHaggar]

But they are as far as what 1080p conventionally means and compared to their own SP game.


And my point is that those threads were there at launch, they were just brushed aside due to the 1080p rhetoric.

i think you should read their explanation again. the final image that the ps4 sends to the tv/monitor is native 1080p.

 

[zzz79]

Oh god. I'm bored of this trolling... Have fun with it, I guess I'm getting too old for this.

yeah typical fanboy talk ... :goodwork:

 

[BibiMaghoo]

Question for the tech people:

How does predicting and then rendering extra pixels, save time over just rendering them? It seems like twice the process, in place of just the rendering. How does extra work save them resources?

 

[Z3M0G]

It's a 1080p image. The method to construct that image is just not conventional.

The idea of "predicting" the color of each odd pixel, over just rendering it with the rest of the frame, sounds baffling to me... I'd expect that to be more demanding. That's the part I that is over my head. Overall, it was a very comprehensive and interesting read.

So, this make two times in a row that digitalfoundry make mistakes about PS4 games?

There was no "mistake", by how digitalfoundry defines 1080p, this game is absolutely 1080p.

 

[Metfanant]

1080p does not mean native 1080p for games (that's what I'm trying to say)

don't give a sh... about 1080p for BD movies, regardless to the aspect ratio, a BD movie is not rendered but recorded on a certain resolution, there fore there is no link to the term "native"

the term "native" is relevant for games ... and I didn't came up with BD movies in this discussion

i disagree almost completely...especially because youre proving to know very little about the topic your discussing...you might want to read up on how movies are "recorded" and their "resolution"

Okay, Guerrilla, please don't use this technique again as it makes the mp portion of the game a blurry mess. Battlefield 4 being 900p, has a much more pleasant IQ.
Thanks.

calling MP a blurry mess is comical....