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[mavs]

I don't know if student loans should count.... For one when I started I got them through a private vendor. Second, they're making money off me.

If they're charging interest below the market rate, they're losing money on you. They're just not losing as much as they could be.

Probably doesn't happen that way at current rates, though.

 

[Guevara]

I don't really agree with your analogy. I donate a ton of money to charities when I can. My favorite being St. Jude's Hospital and Wounded Warriors. I don't benefit from giving to these charities, those who use their services do.

Do you take a charitable deduction on your taxes? That's a gov't handout!

 

[SouthernDragon]

It is a service, but there's no handout. I would say that they're making it more accessible, but that has been shown to not be entirely true. Federally subsidized loans have essentially created the huge increases we've seen in tuition throughout the nation. It's not really possible to say that I wouldn't be able to get better loans if the gov't wasn't involved. They've defined the market.

Agreed, but there are two points I have to raise. 1) They let private institutions do loans until they found abusive practices and inefficients. The government then cut out the middle man and just did it themselves. They defined the market because it was more practical to do so. 2) While it is true that federal loans have led to an increase in tuition, that's not what I was arguing prior.

The end result is, these people are still using a US social program for their benefit, and it was an example to explain how other people might derive indirect benefit from such a program.

 

[UltimaKilo]

If they are charging interest way below market rates, below rates that normal consumers would not be able to access, and offer these loans to consumers which otherwise would not have access to these loans, why is it not a service?

If that is indeed the case, then it is. So if someone defaults on a repayment, does their credit not get impacted?

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

If they're charging interest below the market rate, they're losing money on you. They're just not losing as much as they could be.

Probably doesn't happen that way at current rates, though.

Again. You can't tell anymore. Gov't involvement in the student loan market has warped it to the point where we have no idea what the market would look like anymore. They're getting involved drove up tuitions sky high, which in turn made them the only game in town really. They have warped the market to the point where it is no longer clear they are providing a helpful service.

 

[SouthernDragon]

Please lets not get hung up on the specifics of student loans and grants. That example was used to explain a wider point; that government programs benefit recipients directly and other citizens indirectly.

I don't really agree with your analogy. I donate a ton of money to charities when I can. My favorite being St. Jude's Hospital and Wounded Warriors. I don't benefit from giving to these charities, those who use their services do.

Oh, but you do. These people are now not using the emergency rooms or other last minute care services that you might need. Wait times are shorter and immediate expenses at those hospitals are lower, keeping costs down and the local medical system solvent.

 

[SouthernDragon]

If that is indeed the case, then it is. So if someone defaults on a repayment, does their credit not get impacted?

It does. While they are the recipient of a service, they are also responsible for using it wisely.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

Please lets not get hung up on the specifics of student loans and grants. That example was used to explain a wider point; that government programs benefit recipients directly and other citizens indirectly.

Loans are listed in the study though? The loans and tax credits are the ones I have a hard time faulting anyone for not recognizing. On loans I don't think they count as a social program, and tax benefits kind of fall in the same category. Once its in the tax code I wouldn't call it a "program." People would have to be stupid not to take it and you can make the decision independently of wanting the credit, whereas something like Medicaid is a decision to take the benefit.

 

[UltimaKilo]

Oh, but you do. These people are now not using the emergency rooms or other last minute care services that you might need. Wait times are shorter and immediate expenses at those hospitals are lower, keeping costs down and the local medical system solvent.

I see what you're arguing, but I just happened to use St. Jude's as an example. Wounded Warriors, providing relief to families of injured veterans and helping with scholarships for their kids helps all of society, of course.

Your argument is a good one, but I just don't see it that way. I do charity work through my Masonic Lodge like building homes and feeding the homeless. The personal benefits I get from spending $30 on building a house for the homeless or feeding them far outweigh the benefits of spending that money on two drinks at a club. That doesn't mean it does anything for my neighbor who doesn't see the benefit in helping our fellow man.

Do you take a charitable deduction on your taxes? That's a gov't handout!

First off, not it's not since it saves the government money from having to do it themselves through their own arms. Secondly, no I do not take any deductions on my taxes.

 

[numble]

Secondly, no I do not take any deductions on my taxes.

You don't even take the standard deduction? Wow.

 

[Cyan]

Secondly, no I do not take any deductions on my taxes.

If this is true and not just forum blather, you should really rethink that. At the very least, you can take the standard deduction and a deduction for your 401k contributions.

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

I drove on a public road today.

ugh. fucking peasants. get a helicopter or get out of my country.

 

[Devolution]

So I took a shower, drove to the p.o. box, got my mail, came back and cooked some lunch on the stove, and now I'm on my computer using the internet. Fuck the gov't what have they done for me lately.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

So I took a shower, drove to the p.o. box, got my mail, came back and cooked some lunch on the stove, and now I'm on my computer using the internet. Fuck the gov't what have they done for me lately.

Ok yeah. Not disagreeing with this. I'm all for big gov't and more social programs. I still think this study has some fairly odd definition of "social program." AKA student loans and tax deductions.

 

[wenis]

ugh. fucking peasants. get a helicopter or get out of my country.

what? no one else uses private jets?

smh

 

[UltimaKilo]

If this is true and not just forum blather, you should really rethink that. At the very least, you can take the standard deduction and a deduction for your 401k contributions.

Nope, with the exception of once in 2008 when I needed the cash to pay for my ex fiancee's son's schooling. Since then I've told my accountant not to. I don't have a 401k though.

 

[dramatis]

Ok yeah. Not disagreeing with this. I'm all for big gov't and more social programs. I still think this study has some fairly odd definition of "social program." AKA student loans and tax deductions.

I wouldn't count tax deductions, but I would count student loans. It's not a handout, but that doesn't mean it's not a social program. In a way, it's probably the mistake of equating "social program" with "handout" that is causing this problem. I think of social program as a service intending to better the community in some way, which sometimes includes handouts but may also be other things.

An example would be lunch in public schools. Students with financial situations where paying for lunch daily would be cost-prohibitive get free lunch, and some get reduced lunch, while others well to do enough pay full price. A chunk of the program is handouts, but another chunk is not handouts, so is it or is it not a social program? Anyhow, the benefits of having lunch for kids, regardless of cost, is to keep kids healthy and capable of focusing on studying as well as other indirect benefits.

 

[AndyD]

I drove on a public road today.

FUUUUCKKK!!! I am going all offroad tomorrow!!!!

 

[Empty]

well part of the issue is that the right has stigmatized welfare and government assistance so much over the past few decades that people have the perception that it's only for the very poor or terrible loser parasites, so they either don't get them at all (here in the uk we have billions of pounds in unclaimed benefits every year for example), or in these cases refuse to classify what they get as them or just feel to ashamed to get them so don't admit to it.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

I wouldn't count tax deductions, but I would count student loans. It's not a handout, but that doesn't mean it's not a social program. In a way, it's probably the mistake of equating "social program" with "handout" that is causing this problem. I think of social program as a service intending to better the community in some way, which sometimes includes handouts but may also be other things.

An example would be lunch in public schools. Students with financial situations where paying for lunch daily would be cost-prohibitive get free lunch, and some get reduced lunch, while others well to do enough pay full price. A chunk of the program is handouts, but another chunk is not handouts, so is it or is it not a social program? Anyhow, the benefits of having lunch for kids, regardless of cost, is to keep kids healthy and capable of focusing on studying as well as other indirect benefits.

Ok I'm gonna go back to the part about how student loans aren't necessarily doing good for students anymore. They've driven up costs and therefore students aren't benefiting from them anymore. The market has been so warped that you can't tell if they're doing any good, but you can't get rid of them now because tuition is so high the private lenders won't cover it.

 

[Trent Strong]

I drove on a public road today.

Do you have a job and do you pay taxes? This is not a good analogy.

 

[ToxicAdam]

well part of the issue is that the right has stigmatized welfare and government assistance so much over the past few decades that people have the perception that it's only for the very poor or terrible loser parasites, so they either don't get them at all (here in the uk we have billions of pounds in unclaimed benefits every year for example), or in these cases refuse to classify what they get as them or just feel to ashamed to get them so don't admit to it.

I think you are completely wrong. I think people think that because they pay a pittance of a tax, they are entitled to everything under the sun. So, they view it as a service they have already paid for, instead of a service that has been drastically discounted.

You could see this type of thinking with the Health Care Reform where elderly people were telling Obama to keep his hands off THEIR medicare.

 

[SouthernDragon]

Your argument is a good one, but I just don't see it that way. I do charity work through my Masonic Lodge like building homes and feeding the homeless. The personal benefits I get from spending $30 on building a house for the homeless or feeding them far outweigh the benefits of spending that money on two drinks at a club. That doesn't mean it does anything for my neighbor who doesn't see the benefit in helping our fellow man.

I find you agreeable. Here's my final point, and it's about your neighbor. Even if he doesn't see the benefit, it's still there. It's a lack of education or the wrong mindset.

Ok I'm gonna go back to the part about how student loans aren't necessarily doing good for students anymore. They've driven up costs and therefore students aren't benefiting from them anymore. The market has been so warped that you can't tell if they're doing any good, but you can't get rid of them now because tuition is so high the private lenders won't cover it.

Private lenders aren't allowed to cover it. The government ran a study that found private lenders acting as middlemen inflated costs, so they cut the middlemen out. That said, rising tuition is a problem and it is created, in part, by loans guaranteed by the government. I'd say students still derive benefit overall, though.

 

[brucewaynegretzky]

Private lenders aren't allowed to cover it. The government ran a study that found private lenders acting as middlemen inflated costs, so they cut the middlemen out. That said, rising tuition is a problem and it is created, in part, by loans guaranteed by the government. I'd say students still derive benefit overall, though.

I'm not talking about acting as middle men. I'm talking about the gov't providing the loans in general. Guaranteeing loans for everyone has driven costs so high that they've driven private lenders virtually out of the market. The rates on their loans aren't very low either. They're actually higher than private lenders. The thing they're giving is access, but this has actually created the problem of too many people getting worthless degrees and driving up costs for everyone else. The profit that the fed is making on students genuinely working towards improving their lives in worthwhile endeavors vastly outweighs any social benefit.

 

[Cyan]

Nope, with the exception of once in 2008 when I needed the cash to pay for my ex fiancee's son's schooling. Since then I've told my accountant not to.

Honestly scratching my head here. Can't imagine why you would do this, and I can't imagine any accountant worth his/her salt actually agreeing to this. Bizarre. To each his own, I suppose.

I don't have a 401k though.

Sorry, mixed you up with someone else with whom I had a 401k discussion the other day.

 

[Matt]

I don't really agree with your analogy. I donate a ton of money to charities when I can. My favorite being St. Jude's Hospital and Wounded Warriors. I don't benefit from giving to these charities, those who use their services do.

They don't have an evaluation of every student that receives one, they're handed out like candy. I remember going into the financial aide office when I really needed it and they offered me the money (and to others) without much question. I was so shocked and disgusted. Next day I went to Bank of America and they hooked it up. My credit rating has greatly benefitted from that move and I don't regret it.

I'm all for Federal Student Loans though!

Your student loan from BoA was guaranteed by the federal government, so you benefited from that federal program.

 

[mj1108]

Can't say I'm surprised. These people who think they don't use a government program are also the ones that vote Republican/Teabagger.

 

[Conciliator]

People hate socialist policies, except for the ones that already exist and benefit them. Funny how that works. I think that's a large part of the 'confusion' here. People don't think about Medicare as government-run wealth redistribution. They don't really think about it at all, in truth: It's more like a service materialized from thin air that they have an inherent right to. It's always been there, why would it ever stop being there?

 

[numble]

Do you have a job and do you pay taxes? This is not a good analogy.

I earned my salary overseas, paid zero US taxes, except sales tax.

You also don't know what "analogy" means.

 

[Trent Strong]

I earned my salary overseas, paid zero US taxes, except sales tax.

You also don't know what "analogy" means.

But I do. You don't know what a "government social program" means.

 

[numble]

But I do. You don't know what a "government social program" means.

Explain what I was creating an analogy for, and how I created it.

 

[Trent Strong]

Explain what I was creating an analogy for, and how I created it.

An analogy is basically reasoning or explaining from parallel cases. I thought you were claiming that people who use roads that are funded by state tax money are analogous to people who use federal government social programs, or that you might even be claiming that people who abuse welfare are analogous to people who use roads. But I was mistaken. You weren't trying to make an analogy, you were claiming that roads are literally federal government social programs. My mistake.

 

[Kagari]

Obama just cut those by $100M. Leave some for the rest of us...

EDIT: Faux edit.

Seriously?

 

[numble]

An analogy is basically reasoning or explaining from parallel cases. I thought you were claiming that people who use roads that are funded by state tax money are analogous to people who use federal government social programs, or that you might even be claiming that people who abuse welfare are analogous to people who use roads. But I was mistaken. You weren't trying to make an analogy, you were claiming that roads are literally federal government social programs. My mistake.

It's amazing that you can draw such inferences from one sentence.

Me: "I used a public road today."

You: OMG, your arguments and analogies are so offensive.

 

[bill0527]

Hmm..I never knew tax deductions were considered social programs. Seems like a verbal stretch to me. I maybe could see a tax credit being considered a social program because you pay nothing on a tax credit and in some cases the government will pay you, even if you owe nothing in taxes. On a tax deduction, you are still paying the tax, just not as much.

 

[numble]

Hmm..I never knew tax deductions were considered social programs. Seems like a verbal stretch to me. I maybe could see a tax credit being considered a social program because you pay nothing on a tax credit and in some cases the government will pay you, even if you owe nothing in taxes. On a tax deduction, you are still paying the tax, just not as much.

If the government got rid of the home mortgage interest deduction and replaced it with a program where the government pays 10% of each home's mortgage interest, it would undoubtedly be called a "social program," but the government would actually end up with more tax revenue and taxpayers would actually be receiving fewer benefits.

 

[Oblivion]

The welfare/food stamps portion is the most surprising one. There was some conservative T.V. 'star' that was on Fox News a while back who admitted that he was on welfare earlier in his life but that he 'never' relied on the government to help him out. o_0

How the fuck do you take 'WELFARE', and NOT think that's asking help from the government? Isn't that the main thing conservatives bitch about? That's where the term 'welfare queen' came from! Wtf?

 

[The Technomancer]

To be fair most of these programs are funded by tax papers money. We are just claiming whats rightfully ours.

And healthcare wouldn't be? What magical well would pay for healthcare?

My parents are literally paragons of the "American ideal", both entrepreneurs who remain successfully self employed and self sufficient, and even we are using Pell Grants and some small student loans to put me through college. They also have absolutely no problem with a socialized healthcare system.

 

[KingK]

I get Pell Grants and subsidized student loans.

My family used to get Social Security and Veteran's benefits when my dad was disabled and sick.

If it wasn't for government programs, my family would've lost our house and I wouldn't be able to get a college education. I love me some government social programs. We should be strengthening and in some cases (healthcare, education) expanding these programs, not slashing them and calling those who depend on them parasites.

 

[captive]

can someone explain to me how tax deductions on earned income and mortgage interest qualify as government aid? Thats not aid...

Also for all the "public road" people, you generally pay a registration fee on your car, so its not free to drive. And then there's toll roads, gotta love tax payer money going to build a toll road in which we will then have to pay a fee at every checkpoint to use said road.

 

[Oblivion]

In another thread we were discussing a similar topic, and I mentioned that it was okay for people to use welfare in the same way that it's okay for people to use public roads: because in both cases, people paid to use them. A few people didn't agree with that, and so I'd thought I'd ask again. It's possible I could be missing something, but the principle seems the same, does it not?

 

[numble]

can someone explain to me how tax deductions on earned income and mortgage interest qualify as government aid? Thats not aid...

Also for all the "public road" people, you generally pay a registration fee on your car, so its not free to drive. And then there's toll roads, gotta love tax payer money going to build a toll road in which we will then have to pay a fee at every checkpoint to use said road.

Look up the concept of "tax expenditures." Its not even a controversial idea, a lot of government policy is conducted through the tax code, and the Congressional Budget Office even keeps track of it. If the government started paying 10% of all home mortgage interest but got rid of the deduction, people would call it a new government spending/entitlement program, but it would actually cost the government less than conducting this policy (making home ownership cheaper) through deductions. A tax deduction to a farm/company can be just as economically valuable to the company as a government subsidy.

Do you pay a car registration fee to every state you drive your car into? The Department of Transportation and Federal Highway Administration pays for highways at an 80/20 split with locals (Feds pay 80% and locals pay 20%). Highways in Alabama are funded by Manhattanites that don't even own cars. And no, the federal gas tax doesn't fully fund this, just like your payroll taxes don't fully fund Medicare and Social Security.

 

[videogamer]

" People would have to be stupid not to take it and you can make the decision independently of wanting the credit, whereas something like Medicaid is a decision to take the benefit.

You also have to make the decision to apply for the tax credit.

 

[bangai-o]

i recieve 40dollars every two weeks partial un-employment.

 

[Old Gimlet Eyes]

BOGGC school money waivers, Pell Grants, unemployment money and basic health care insurance from the state of California. I love my government services and really don't know where I would be without them. Social services are a great boon to society and should only ever be expanded upon.

 

[Xyrmellon]

What ever happened to our grand socialist utopia???

I get government money too, btw.

 

[neoanarch]

I earned my salary overseas, paid zero US taxes, except sales tax.

You also don't know what "analogy" means.

Are you being serious? are you a US citizen? Because unless they changed the tax laws you have to pay taxes as a US citizen regardless of where it was earned, even on top of overseas taxes.
http://www.bankrate.com/finance/money-guides/taxpayers-abroad-can-limit-u-s-taxes-1.aspx

 

[aronnov reborn]

poor and uneducated?

 

[numble]

Are you being serious? are you a US citizen? Because unless they changed the tax laws you have to pay taxes as a US citizen regardless of where it was earned, even on top of overseas taxes.
http://www.bankrate.com/finance/money-guides/taxpayers-abroad-can-limit-u-s-taxes-1.aspx

Foreign Earned Income Exclusion and Foreign Housing Cost Deduction.

I made less than $118,820, so it all fits within the exclusions.

I think a person earning more could possibly still have no liability, with additional deductions, like the standard deduction and other deductions/credits you can claim. I'm not at a salary level where I need to investigate that, though.

PS: Your link explains those exclusions.

 

[RustyNails]

What kind of an utter moron do you need to be in order to believe that Medicare is not a government program?

40%? smh. Unbelievable. Where do these people think their free healthcare comes from if not from the government?