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Halo |OT11| Forward Unto Dong

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willow ve

Member
Never have I hated or loved something so much at this time, my gift to you everyone in this great community. I love you all.

http://www.halocouncil.com/

Looks amazing. Solid work.

It's all a matter of perspective mang.

28qmw.jpg

A. Aren't you a Bing man, man?

B. Your searches are a little misleading. Seraching OGRE Twins (no MLG) gives 1,100,000 results. Searching Walter Ray Williams PBA (adding his sport) returns only 105,000. When you just search Walter Ray Williams you get a lot of other people and results that aren't related to bowling.

Ergo OGRE Twins MLG has more results than Walter Ray Williams PBA. Is that the point you were trying to make?


Searching just OGRE 1 or OGRE 2 returns 32,000,000+ hits on each search...
 

Project

Member
@Project you not the only one. The people that don't understand us just aren't competitive(at least a good amount of them not all) that is all. They don't care if their rank goes up or down nor if it is there or not. So they think everyone should be like them and play just for fun.

They don't realize for people like us we want ranks for incentive. I'll play and have fun, but why will I want to get better at the game if there is no way to show it. They just don't understand.

Also another good way of putting it.

@Frankie - I agree, it depends who you are, why you play, and your personality. I play to win and I just like knowing where I stand. It doesn't even make me flinch seeing a professional bowler have more recognition than an MLG pro. Bowling is bigger, or at least better showcased through things like ESPN. My main thing is, I liked having a quick way of knowing where I stood in terms of skill compared to the rest of the Halo population (Halo 2, Halo 3). Was it accurate? No not always, but for a better portion of the time the higher ranks were more skilled. I am not a cheater so I don't care about people who cheat or buy 50's. It is easy to recognize who does that, and just disregard them from the category of a "50" or the highest rank. Bottom line like I said before, is that us competitive players love knowing where we stand in relation to one another. A quick and easy way to tell is through a visible ranking system or leader board. Whether that is only viewable to oneself, or everybody, I don't think really matters as I am fine with either. Its just the fact that we like knowing where we stand without having to go to an MLG event and try to "rank" ourselves.

Having something on the line, even as much as a 48 that only you can see, can do a lot to a competitive person.

I think my argument before was poorly expressed, I do not want recognition from others as much as I want to know where I stand compared to others for my own personal knowledge.
 

Schmitty

Member
Why are there so many people getting this game early? Maybe I'll check a local mom and pop store to see if they'll sell it
 

Beckx

Member
Imagine if every sports federations decided to abandon the idea of competitions and tournaments and just made everyone play friendly matches 100% of the time. That's Halo 4 right now.

See, the thing is, I agree with you that visible ranks should be in Halo 4. But I think it's talked to death, and any attempt to prove through argument that it *must* be in the game is doomed, because it ends up with statements like this.

Sports federations don't use a rank system. They use head-to-head tournament play. Imagine if the NCAA switched basketball from the current tournament system to the pre-BCS college football "ranks" with the 100% "friendly" bowl games. Or if the World Cup was just awarded to whoever was #1 in world ranking each year.

Ranks add spice and importance but they don't even come close to replacing tournament results for determining who's actually the best.
 
"You guys just don't understand." Lol, yeah, you're on a whole other philosophical/intellectual level.

I have a friend that said if Halo 4 had ranks she wouldn't buy it. See? I can do that too.

Do you only play MP games with ranks? Because I've been playing games since the 80s, and most of those didn't have a ranking system. You know what you did when you wanted a "real" competitive game? You joined a tournament or an online ranking ladder like Gamebattles. That's still an option these days right? I mean I'm old as shit, so that stuff may be relics of the past.

This is a no shit statement, but yeah, ranks would have been cool if they had been kept, but they weren't and it's not a deal breaker. You can still get your competitive fill by utilizing outside factors.

Perhaps it's you that doesn't understand. Go get that MLG pay and that high status GB rank son.

I know that is why I said anecdotal evidence is pointless.

Well when I was growing up the only multiplayer I had was local so I played hard to beat my friends. I wanted to show them I am the best because I knew them, and could talk trash to them. I don't get that sense of enjoyment when playing online.

However, if I can get a rank they can't, or I can just get a rank that is considered hard to get; I will have my own personal enjoyment.
 

Arnie

Member
But you know the inherent skill of Tashi because he is good, not because of his rank. It's all arbitrary anyways. I'm not saying I don't want ranks, just that I don't give a shit if they are in or not. lol

But I only know that because I frequent this community; 99% of my playtime in Halo 4 will be in matchmaking, not pre-organised custom games.

If you're that ambivalent to ranks in the first place, when there's a credible argument for their inclusion, then I can't really value your critical opinion. It defies logic to be so apathetic towards something that's proven to add value for many players, especially when you aren't a proponent of the opposite solution: no ranks at all.

I don't understand why you'd argue against something when you hold no opinion either way, especially when the arguments for the opposite side vastly outweigh the angle you're going with.

I'm still really eager to hear 343's opinion on the matter, which we're yet to receive. I hope Frank's web tease is coming before launch.
 

Brolic Gaoler

formerly Alienshogun
I know that is why I said anecdotal evidence is pointless.

Well when I was growing up the only multiplayer I had was local so I played hard to beat my friends. I wanted to show them I am the best because I knew them, and could talk trash to them. I don't get that sense of enjoyment when playing online.

However, if I can get a rank they can't, or I can just get a rank that is considered hard to get; I will have my own personal enjoyment.

So it IS all about E-peen.

Gotcha.

It's cool man, I understand where you're coming from. I derive enjoyment from knowing I'm the strongest mother fucker I know.
 

neoism

Member
The butthurt over no ranks is ridiculous... did you guys ever thing that maybe 343 doesn't want a repeat of the stupid shit that went down in halo 3 with gamertag stealing and saleing... I had a few college buddies that bought 50s and shit it was sad and ridiculous...Then they would play on them and lose it and stay at 48 or 49....
Alien is right the competitiveness is always there you dont need a number beside your name to prove to strangers your good at a video game... no one cares.
 
See, the thing is, I agree with you that visible ranks should be in Halo 4. But I think it's talked to death, and any attempt to prove through argument that it *must* be in the game is doomed, because it ends up with statements like this.

Sports federations don't use a rank system. They use head-to-head tournament play. Imagine if the NCAA switched basketball from the current tournament system to the pre-BCS college football "ranks" with the 100% "friendly" bowl games. Or if the World Cup was just awarded to whoever was #1 in world ranking each year.

Ranks add spice and importance but they don't even come close to replacing tournament results for determining who's actually the best.

The AP and coaches do rank NCAA basketball teams throughout the season as well, though. They use a tournament to decide the final champion, but still have "visible ranks".
 
See, the thing is, I agree with you that visible ranks should be in Halo 4. But I think it's talked to death, and any attempt to prove through argument that it *must* be in the game is doomed, because it ends up with statements like this.

Sports federations don't use a rank system. They use head-to-head tournament play. Imagine if the NCAA switched basketball from the current tournament system to the pre-BCS college football "ranks" with the 100% "friendly" bowl games. Or if the World Cup was just awarded to whoever was #1 in world ranking each year.

Ranks add spice and importance but they don't even come close to replacing tournament results for determining who's actually the best.

It is only talked to death because it isn't in atm or never. Only way to get anything change is to be vocal about it.
 
When Rangers got demoted from the top Scottish division all the way down to the bottom, did their skill change? Nope.

When someone with a 50 boosts a new account, doe their skill change? Nope.

Which happened on a far more regular basis?
 
The butthurt over no ranks is ridiculous... did you guys ever thing that maybe 343 doesn't want a repeat of the stupid shit that went down in halo 3 with gamertag stealing and saleing... I had a few college buddies that bought 50s and shit it was sad and ridiculous...Then they would play on them and lose it and stay at 48 or 49....
Alien is right the competitiveness is always there you dont need a number beside your name to prove to strangers your good at a video game... no one cares.

Then why have SR-1-50?
 

Aggrotek

Member
But I only know that because I frequent this community; 99% of my playtime in Halo 4 will be in matchmaking, not pre-organised custom games.

If you're that ambivalent to ranks in the first place, when there's a credible argument for their inclusion, then I can't really value your critical opinion. It defies logic to be so apathetic towards something that's proven to add value for many players, especially when you aren't a proponent of the opposite solution: no ranks at all.

I don't understand why you'd argue against something when you hold no opinion either way, especially when the arguments for the opposite side vastly outweigh the angle you're going with.

I'm still really eager to hear 343's opinion on the matter, which we're yet to receive. I hope Frank's web tease is coming before launch.

How does it not make sense? I'm fine with it either way. I'm just saying that it doesn't really truly matter that they are not in, I'm not being super critical about it.
 

Blueblur1

Member
The butthurt over no ranks is ridiculous... did you guys ever thing that maybe 343 doesn't want a repeat of the stupid shit that went down in halo 3 with gamertag stealing and saleing... I had a few college buddies that bought 50s and shit it was sad and ridiculous...Then they would play on them and lose it and stay at 48 or 49....
Alien is right the competitiveness is always there you dont need a number beside your name to prove to strangers your good at a video game... no one cares.
It's not about what other people think of me. It's about having an indicator of my relative skill which also provides incentive to get better at the game. It's basic human nature to strive to improve skills and aspects of one's life. A visual indicator helps achieve that.
 

Arnie

Member
When Rangers got demoted from the top Scottish division all the way down to the bottom, did their skill change? Nope.

When someone with a 50 boosts a new account, doe their skill change? Nope.

Which happened on a far more regular basis?

They lost a smattering of their best players, so yes, it did. Their status as a club throughout history didn't change, but that doesn't best represent their current standing today; I'm a Liverpool fan, I'm well aware of that.

If someone boosts a 50 they'll be out of the kiddy pool in a (relatively) short time. It's not a perfect system, nobody's arguing that it is, but I'd ask what proportion of players at the lower end of the scale are boosters, and what number are legitimate players at that level? My guess would be the majority are fairly levelled players, but I'd need input from Frank on that one.

If it's a minority who're temporarily at incorrect levels, then I'd wager that system is still on the whole successful, no?

Does the Rangers example de-legitimise Scottish second division standings on the whole? Not at all. Just like Monaco being bought by a Russian billionare doesn't disqualify the majority of Ligue 2, for example.

How does it not make sense? I'm fine with it either way. I'm just saying that it doesn't really truly matter that they are not in, I'm not being super critical about it.
Your argument doesn't make sense because skill's relative. Gratification gained from 'outskilling' opponents shifts with the context of said duel. If my opponent's not particularly good at the game then I don't garner much enjoyment. Of course there's still skilled ranking under the hood, supposedly, but without a concrete unified system of understanding there's still an element of doubt involved in determining how you are actually performing against your peers.
 

Brolic Gaoler

formerly Alienshogun
The same logic that says "you shouldn't need Skill ranks to have fun" could be applied to this meaningless metric as well.

Except it's proven to keep massive amounts of people playing ever since MMOs incorporated it in the 90s. (Hell even single player RPGs)

It's definitely meaningless, it's there for no other reason than to keep people playing.

That meaningless progression probably holds a bigger grasp on player retention than skill ranks.
 
The butthurt over no ranks is ridiculous... did you guys ever thing that maybe 343 doesn't want a repeat of the stupid shit that went down in halo 3 with gamertag stealing and saleing... I had a few college buddies that bought 50s and shit it was sad and ridiculous...Then they would play on them and lose it and stay at 48 or 49....
Alien is right the competitiveness is always there you dont need a number beside your name to prove to strangers your good at a video game... no one cares.

The buying/selling of 50 accounts doesn't really affect the broader pool of normal players so much, though. The bigger issue was people de-ranking and manipulating the system to get 50's. You'd run into those people somewhat often in MM, and that was a problem, albeit a fixable one.

They were exploiting a loophole in the ranking system. So close the damn loophole rather than throw the whole system away.

I'm not stomping mad over the deal or anything, I'm still completely jacked to get my hands on this game next week, etc.- but if I had my choice, there would be a visible ranking system in the Slayer Pro playlist at a minimum. I think it would help maintain the population in that playlist over time as well.
 

Omni

Member
Then why have SR-1-50?

I was actually thinking about the exp ranks other day. Would people buy accounts that have all the specialisations unlocked? Because it's the same thing really. In Halo 3, people wanted 50s and were willing to pay for them. It doesn't seem that much of a stretch to consider that some might not want to grind to unlock everything and so will just buy a new account.
 

Overdoziz

Banned
See, the thing is, I agree with you that visible ranks should be in Halo 4. But I think it's talked to death, and any attempt to prove through argument that it *must* be in the game is doomed, because it ends up with statements like this.

Sports federations don't use a rank system. They use head-to-head tournament play. Imagine if the NCAA switched basketball from the current tournament system to the pre-BCS college football "ranks" with the 100% "friendly" bowl games. Or if the World Cup was just awarded to whoever was #1 in world ranking each year.

Ranks add spice and importance but they don't even come close to replacing tournament results for determining who's actually the best.
Well, saying it's doomed is silly, but I do think it has quite an effect on the competitive scene of a game. It probably won't stop too many people from buying the game, but it'll definitely make some people play the game less or even quit playing it down the line.

And yes, the analogy wasn't the best, but they rarely work when used with games anyway. :p
 

Beckx

Member
The AP and coaches do rank NCAA basketball teams throughout the season as well, though. They use a tournament to decide the final champion, but still have "visible ranks".

Because ranks are a useful tool to determine relative strength, whether in sport or Halo. Except for those World Football rankings. Those things suck.

Well, saying it's doomed is silly, but I do think it has quite an effect on the competitive scene of a game. It probably won't stop people from buying the game, but it'll definitely make some people play the game less or even quit playing it down the line.

I agree, because I think you see it in the fighting game renaissance, supported by dual pillars of ranking systems and strong tournament scenes. By doomed I just mean the attempt to prove the value of ranks through argument is doomed. I don't think developers ever look at that and say "curses, I am undone" and change their plan. :)
 

Tunavi

Banned
The butthurt over no ranks is ridiculous... did you guys ever thing that maybe 343 doesn't want a repeat of the stupid shit that went down in halo 3 with gamertag stealing and saleing... I had a few college buddies that bought 50s and shit it was sad and ridiculous...Then they would play on them and lose it and stay at 48 or 49....
Alien is right the competitiveness is always there you dont need a number beside your name to prove to strangers your good at a video game... no one cares.
the point is that many people do care.
 
Ranks add spice and importance but they don't even come close to replacing tournament results for determining who's actually the best.

I'm competitive enough to have ranks, but not competitive enough to constantly play tournaments (although I did win a Halo 3 tournament in college with about 50 people participating).

Overdoz is right, ranks simply make a win feel like a win. A basic way to see if a sports team is good is by looking at their record of wins losses (per season). A rank is a great way of seeing where someone stands at that current time; seeing 1000 wins and 1200 losses doesn't say as much because they may have gotten a lot better towards the end. A single number reflects this current skill state that takes enough time to change to be a solid long-term illustration of your skill, but can also alter quickly enough for a winning/losing streak to affect that number.

Ranks are the way to go, there is absolutely no question that it affected the steadiness of the online population in both Halo 2 and 3.
 
Well what does the in game stat tracking look like? Is it comparable to CoD Black ops where I can see my k/d, w/l, kills with what weapons, where most my kill shots land, what playlists I do the best in, which weapons I dong the hardest with, etc etc. As a baseball player, my stats represent my skill just as much as the level I play at. If you don't give us one, at least give us one or the other. I want to see how I stack up against the people I am about to play.
 

Korosenai

Member
A. Aren't you a Bing man, man?

B. Your searches are a little misleading. Seraching OGRE Twins (no MLG) gives 1,100,000 results. Searching Walter Ray Williams PBA (adding his sport) returns only 105,000. When you just search Walter Ray Williams you get a lot of other people and results that aren't related to bowling.

Ergo OGRE Twins MLG has more results than Walter Ray Williams PBA. Is that the point you were trying to make?


Searching just OGRE 1 or OGRE 2 returns 32,000,000+ hits on each search...

nofunx.jpg
 
Well what does the in game stat tracking look like? Is it comparable to CoD Black ops where I can see my k/d, w/l, kills with what weapons, where most my kill shots land, what playlists I do the best in, which weapons I dong the hardest with, etc etc. As a baseball player, my stats represent my skill just as much as the level I play at. If you don't give us one, at least give us one or the other. I want to see how I stack up against the people I am about to play.

Too lazy to use Waypoint?
 
That FUD episode was just... terrible.

I'm shocked.

Worse than any of the previous ones.
The great acting that we saw earlier? Gone.
The great scripting? Gone.
Plus,
Chyler's death was so poorly staged. When did she get hit? With what? We're not shown. The area of her body that took the hit wasn't even exposed. She was a much better character than say, JJ, and she got a horribly cheesy death.
Just bad.
 

orznge

Banned
But I only know that because I frequent this community; 99% of my playtime in Halo 4 will be in matchmaking, not pre-organised custom games.

If you're that ambivalent to ranks in the first place, when there's a credible argument for their inclusion, then I can't really value your critical opinion. It defies logic to be so apathetic towards something that's proven to add value for many players, especially when you aren't a proponent of the opposite solution: no ranks at all.

I don't understand why you'd argue against something when you hold no opinion either way, especially when the arguments for the opposite side vastly outweigh the angle you're going with.

I'm still really eager to hear 343's opinion on the matter, which we're yet to receive. I hope Frank's web tease is coming before launch.

.
 

Aggrotek

Member
They lost a smattering of their best players, so yes, it did. Their status as a club throughout history didn't change, but that doesn't best represent their current standing today; I'm a Liverpool fan, I'm well aware of that.

If someone boosts a 50 they'll be out of the kiddy pool in a (relatively) short time. It's not a perfect system, nobody's arguing that it is, but I'd ask what proportion of players at the lower end of the scale are boosters, and what number are legitimate players at that level? My guess would be the majority are fairly levelled players, but I'd need input from Frank on that one.

If it's a minority who're temporarily at incorrect levels, then I'd wager that system is still on the whole successful, no?

Does the Rangers example de-legitimise Scottish second division standings on the whole? Not at all. Just like Monaco being bought by a Russian billionare doesn't disqualify the majority of Ligue 2, for example.


Your argument doesn't make sense because skill's relative. Gratification gained from 'outskilling' opponents shifts with the context of said duel. If my opponent's not particularly good at the game then I don't garner much enjoyment. Of course there's still skilled ranking under the hood, supposedly, but without a concrete unified system of understanding there's still an element of doubt involved in determining how you are actually performing against your peers.

I suppose this is true. The only flaw that I really see in the ranking system is the boosting. It just fills what is supposed to be the upper tier with members from the lowest tier. Which has the potential to make games less fun and make the rank even more meaningless.
 

Brolic Gaoler

formerly Alienshogun
That FUD episode was just... terrible.

I'm shocked.

Worse than any of the previous ones.
The great acting that we saw earlier? Gone.
The great scripting? Gone.
Plus,
Chyler's death was so poorly staged. When did she get hit? With what? We're not shown. The area of her body that took the hit wasn't even exposed. She was a much better character than say, JJ, and she got a horribly cheesy death.
Just bad.

fud spoiler.

I think she was exposed when she stood up in her seat to engage the jackals.
 

orznge

Banned
The butthurt over no ranks is ridiculous... did you guys ever thing that maybe 343 doesn't want a repeat of the stupid shit that went down in halo 3 with gamertag stealing and saleing... I had a few college buddies that bought 50s and shit it was sad and ridiculous...Then they would play on them and lose it and stay at 48 or 49....
Alien is right the competitiveness is always there you dont need a number beside your name to prove to strangers your good at a video game... no one cares.

I agree, which is why I think that no AAAA FPS should ever have a visible ranking system ever again.
 

Arnie

Member
I suppose this is true. The only flaw that I really see in the ranking system is the boosting. It just fills what is supposed to be the upper tier with members from the lowest tier. Which has the potential to make games less fun and make the rank even more meaningless.

I understand and accept that frustration, but I found it so unobtrusive in the grand pantheon of players that the latter part of your anxiety (which I've bolded) never came to fruition. I always felt that I was playing with people relatively skilled to me, and I was safe in the knowledge that anyone truly out of their depth would eventually be pushed by the tide back down to the shallow water.

I'm not ignorant to the old system's problems, but again, I don't and never did find them severe enough to justify an outright kibosh of visible ranks, certainly.
 

Aggrotek

Member
I understand and accept that frustration, but I found it so unobtrusive in the grand pantheon of players that the latter part of your anxiety (which I've bolded) never came to fruition. I always felt that I was playing with people relatively skilled to me, and I was safe in the knowledge that anyone truly out of their depth would eventually be pushed by the tide back down to the shallow water.

I'm not ignorant to the old system's problems, but again, I don't and never did find them severe enough to justify an outright kibosh of visible ranks, certainly.

I just hope the TrueSkill in Halo 4 is more accurate than previous iterations.
 
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