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[Compbros]

*******MANGA SPOILERS FOR ONE PIECE AND ANY OTHER SERIES PEOPLE ADD********


I'm sick and have nothing better to do right now. I've been thinking about this for a while while rereading some Naruto.



The Naruto vs. Sasuke fight is a favorite of many fueled in part by the rivalry you see throughout the series and the friendship that has grown between Naruto and Sasuke. Naruto is desparetly trying to get his friend back as Sasuke wants to leave the village and sever all ties in an attempt to get stronger. The fight is emotionally charged, Sasuke says early on that Naruto is his best friend which has significance in that there's a Uchiha technique that requires the death of your best friend, and the way Naruto feels about Sasuke in regards to friendship are made clear in this fight. These are two best friends fighting with everything they have for their own beliefs, whether right or wrong. Of course the audience and fans are going to get emotionally invested.


What manipulative horseshit. This fight/arc basically retconned their relationship and forced the audience to believe that their relationship has been steadily growing. The problem is WE NEVER SEE IT. There are maybe, MAYBE 3 panels, not pages, not chapters, PANELS that show that they don't greatly dislike each other. They're rivals, absolutely, but they were NEVER shown to be friends until literally this arc. People say all of part 1 lead to this moment as we slowly see Sasuke become jealous of Naruto overtaking him until it gets to the point where he can't take it anymore and has to prove he's better in a fight. We don't see this at all until the CHAPTER BEFORE THEY FIGHT, until then they moved up and down: Sasuke surpasses Naruto, Naruto surpasses Sasuke, so on. Then suddenly after Gaara while Sasuke is recovering he's like "nah, fuck that, I'm better than him". We don't see this before but somehow it's become the perception of part 1 just like them really being friends.


This leads to a fight of "feels" that has completely unearned emotional impact as there's barely any establishment of friendship or jealousy beforehand. We as the audience are merely TOLD that they're actually besties and it's terrible. Compare it to One Piece.


Everything is spoiler tags are manga spoilers, avoid if you aren't caught up in One Piece.

There are two moments of friends fighting that have actual emotional impact: Luffy vs. Usopp and

Spoiler

Luffy vs. Sanji

. All the SHs are seen being friends, just being goofy together and having fun. Luffy and Usopp are best friends, we're never told this and they never say it themselves but we know from how they are with each other that they are best friends. They end up fighting and there's actual weight behind it because you've seen how much these two care about each other instead of going "Luffy, you're my Captain and best friend but I must duel you now". Luffy doesn't even want to really go along with the fight and early on holds back which allows Usopp to start his offense and start hurting Luffy. They both know Usopp isn't gonna win and despite Luffy's hesitation he eventually fights back and wins. They're both sad over what's happened along with the rest of the SHs and Usopp officially leaves the crew.

Spoiler

Luffy vs. Sanji is Sanji knowing that if he doesn't put up an act and fight Luffy that Luffy will be killed by his family so he acts like the SHs never mattered and starts fighting Luffy. Luffy refuses to fight back and gets destroyed by Sanji. Sanji leaves him beaten and bloodied only for Luffy to shout that Sanji was really the one hurting, Sanji has his head away from his family and is crying.

Real. Emotional. Impact. Actual friends and people that care about each other fighting either because they have no choice or for a belief. Not that schlock of Naruto.



TL;DR: The Naruto/Sasuke fight has us believe they're best friends when we aren't shown this throughout the series and only told so during the actual fight adding artificial emotional impact behind it and retconning their relationship.

 

[DarknessTear]

Edit: NVM!

 

[Compbros]

Kazuma vs Ryuhou final battle in Scryed was pretty emotional. I dunno how it was in the manga tho.

I'm not talking about actual emotional fights, I'm saying the Naruto/Sasuke one was completely unearned and has there been any worse.

 

[captainpat]

I think you can do a lot better than making the 50 billionth "bitch about Naruto" thread. The fight happened three years ago. get over it.

 

[DarknessTear]

I'm not talking about actual emotional fights, I'm saying the Naruto/Sasuke one was completely unearned and has there been any worse.

Oh. I DUNNO. I missed the "unearned" part.

 

[Strimei]

Kazuma vs Ryuhou final battle in Scryed was pretty emotional. I dunno how it was in the manga tho.

Man, you don't even want to get into the manga. It was bizarre as hell.

Ending is different, if memory serves. Lot of differences. Something about how just knowing the "word of evolution" (

Spoiler

its s-CRY-ed

) lets you evolve your alter or something and there's some new characters and so on and...just take my word for it, it gets weird.

Spoiler

and then ends with a timeskip and the entire cast facing down an alien armada led by what is CLEARLY Ryo-ohki from Tenchi Muyo in ship form

 

[wandering]

Bleach

 

[theWB27]

Its almost like you don't understand that it's destiny.

That there were two ninjas in most generations that could decide if conflict continued or ended.

I guess though.

 

[4 is a cutie]

Gohan vs Cell maybe? Gohan's buildup in that arc was pretty weak in general

 

[Compbros]

I think you can do a lot better than making the 50 billionth "bitch about Naruto" thread. The fight happened three years ago. get over it.

First, I could indeed "do a lot better" but this is what I chose to talk about, you are not required to read it.

Second, I have no problems with the fight, but the forced emotional impact of it.

Third, if you actually bothered to read you'd know I'm talking about the Part 1 fight.

 

[nickgia]

I guess I kind of agree that I wish there was more of a relationship development in team 7. But I thought the emotional impact of Sasuke "sacrificing" his life against Haku confirmed that they were friends.

 

[zeemumu]

We're supposed to feel this grand sense of sorrow because he's turning on his former master/best friend, but we barely see any of that relationship. We're pretty much only told about their built up friendship instead of shown it. Whenever we see them together onscreen they're bickering. The Clone Wars show tries to remedy that but still...


Also

Their motivations for hating each other are hypocritical and unclear, and the reason for ending the fight is dumb. This was supposed to be the big moment that the film was building up to (it's the title of the movie), but even though the fight was cool I felt no emotional stake whatsoever. It's like Fast and the Furious. You don't ask WHY they're street racing, but they are and it's awesome, albeit only because it fulfills your action lust.


Edit: Oh you said manga.

Goku vs. Raditz. It's not like Goku was just gonna stay dead forever. And him being Goku's brother adds absolutely no emotional weight whatsoever.

 

[Chase17]

It was cool when he put on the headband though

 

[Daingurse]

Even though I enjoyed many aspects of the fight greatly, Toriko vs

Spoiler

Acacia

/NEO felt completely unearned. The entire NEO story arc felt unearned. Probably 100s of chapters were just straight up skipped. Toriko's rushed pacing soured the whole series. NEO would have had so much more impact if Misutoshi could have fleshed out his story the way he wanted to. I loved seeing the insane powercreep, but the story suffered greatly.

 

[Compbros]

I guess I kind of agree that I wish there was more of a relationship development in team 7. But I thought the emotional impact of Sasuke "sacrificing" his life against Haku confirmed that they were friends.

That's one of the panels I was talking about, he says something akin to "I don't want anyone I care about to die again" but, again, where is this coming from? To this point he's pretty much handled Naruto with disdain.

 

[Ōkami]

We're supposed to feel this grand sense of sorrow because he's turning on his former master/best friend, but we barely see any of that relationship. We're pretty much only told about their built up friendship instead of shown it. Whenever we see them together onscreen they're bickering. The Clone Wars show tries to remedy that but still...


Also

Their motivations for hating each other are hypocritical and unclear, and the reason for ending the fight is dumb. This was supposed to be the big moment that the film was building up to (it's the title of the movie), but even though the fight was cool I felt no emotional stake whatsoever. It's like Fast and the Furious. You don't ask WHY they're street racing, but they are and it's awesome, albeit only because it fulfills your action lust.

Star Wars and Batman v Superman are the best mangas, hopefully the animes are good too.

 

[Sesha]

Them being best friends was forced, but not them being friends in general up to that point. We saw their friendship develop through the Wave Country and Chuunin Exam arcs. Their rivalry was the core of their friendship. But I do think the development of their friendship, even up through the Chuunin Exam felt rushed, and it most likely was. Kishimoto had originally planned on spending more time on missions before the Chuunin Exam, but his editor said he should skip right to the exam/tournament arc because of the series' quickly growing popularity.

Its almost like you don't understand that it's destiny.

That there were two ninjas in most generations that could decide if conflict continued or ended.

I guess though.

"Destiny" doesn't excuse the lack of build up. Even though the destiny theme was just that, an excuse.

 

[nickgia]

That's one of the panels I was talking about, he says something akin to "I don't want anyone I care about to die again" but, again, where is this coming from? To this point he's pretty much handled Naruto with disdain.

It's been a while since I read Naruto but wasn't there a buildup of respect when they did the tree training? Sasuke even asked Naruto what advice Sakura told him.

 

[BassForever]

Even though I enjoyed many aspects of the fight greatly, Toriko vs

Spoiler

Acacia

/NEO felt completely unearned. The entire NEO story arc felt unearned. Probably 100s of chapters were just straight up skipped. Toriko's rushed pacing soured the whole series. NEO would have had so much more impact if Misutoshi could have fleshed out his story the way he wanted to. I loved seeing the insane powercreep, but the story suffered greatly.

To be fair that was likely out of the authors control due to likely being canceled by Jump.

Rather recent but Erza vs her mother in Fairy Tail had zero emotional stakes and a pretty awful pay off, I imagine Natsu vs Zeref won't fair much better.

 

[PanSexual_Peacock]

Tony Stark and Steve Rogers in Civil War. Never got the impression that they were good friends in any of the movies.

Edit: Oops!!!! I see this is only for Manga

 

[Akuun]

Pretty much every fight in the Index series rates extremely high in terms of forced emotional bullshit. The main character is an overpowered and extremely boring person who personifies the "lay down my life for someone I met 5 minutes ago" cliche.

There's one point where he fights some guy because he wants some random girl he doesn't really know to participate in her fucking school festival (which he isn't part of) smoothly. He even makes some righteous shounen speech about it. That's how fucking stupid this anime is.

 

[zeemumu]

Star Wars and Batman v Superman are the best mangas, hopefully the animes are good too.

Eh...

 

[TissueBox]

It was based on a light novel, not a manga, but man did A Certain Magical Index have me constantly throwing a hand in the air with a face of dafuq for, like, nearly everything. So much so I just couldn't finish it, at least not right away, back-to-back, by the gods. (Dropped it around episode 13, I think? After the

Spoiler

Misaka/Sisters

arc.)

The problem isn't necessarily who the protagonist's fighting against but for. He meets a girl for the first time --> they talk a bit --> a couple days later he's risking life and limb for her for no apparent reason and he knows it but whatever. Maybe if the thing was just written more coherently and consistently. But as it stands, my eyes were slits. Slits I tell ya..!!

 

[Compbros]

It's been a while since I read Naruto but wasn't there a buildup of respect when they did the tree training? Sasuke even asked Naruto what advice Sakura told him.

They're rivals so they respect each other, the jealousy of Sasuke and the friendship, especially "best friends" aspect, is hardly if ever shown throughout the entire series leading up to the fight.

 

[Replicant]

The entire series, I wanted Naruto to kill Sasuke. Alas.

 

[airmangataosenai]

I dont agree at all. They worked as a team over the course of what is portrayed as several months starting with Sasuke not even acknowledging Naruto. That battle is the natural end of him fully recognizing him as an equal. This relationship was more than fine in the original series and was well handled.

 

[Chase17]

I imagine whenever Asta fights Yuno that will be worse lol

 

[PerfectFlaw]

It's one of the worst written friendships in popular media.

I love Naruto part 1, but I agree with you, OP. That fight was just the beginning/tip of the iceberg of a long downward spiral in quality.

 

[Streaks]

This thread is silly but it does make me think of this vid that I saw a few months back. I went more than half a decade without caring about Naruto but I started watching it my sophomore year of college when I was 19 and that fight happened like 12 years later. I cared about their relationships and enjoyed the final fight a lot. Vid puts it nicely.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7OgcsAnyFk

 

[Lulubop]

The answer is no tbqh

 

[Daingurse]

To be fair that was likely out of the authors control due to likely being canceled by Jump.

Yeah, I know it wasn't his fault. Toriko was in the the bottom rankings of WSJ for a good minute. But man, it was just so dissapointing. I got into Toriko towards the end of 2015, and it quickly became one of my favorite battle shonen. The ending left me cold and hollow. So much potential, all wasted. I hope Misutoshi has better luck next time.

 

[Eyeh4wk]

What's up with all these Naruto threads lately? lol

 

[Hyperactivity]

Both Naruto vs Sasuke fights at the end of both parts somehow do a much better job of making it feel like their relationship ever meant something than the show ever does.

It's actually sort of impressive

 

[Erigu]

I think you can do a lot better than making the 50 billionth "bitch about Naruto" thread. The fight happened three years ago. get over it.

So we can't talk about movies or TV shows from three years ago or more, huh? Good to know!

 

[BassForever]

On topic the final naruto vs sasuke fight was fine especially in a vacuum, the issue is it came after so much bull shit during the war that I was numb by the point it happened. The constant retconning to make Naruto and Sauske always friends forced destiny into their conflict made it not feel as natural as their earlier confrontations felt. It basically turned into the shonen battle manga equivalent of a hate sex where once they blew their chakra load on each other they were good and best friends again.

 

[Lulubop]

What's up with all these Naruto threads lately? lol

Someone make a Yu Yu Hakusho thread please

 

[Compbros]

I dont agree at all. They worked as a team over the course of what is portrayed as several months starting with Sasuke not even acknowledging Naruto. That battle is the natural end of him fully recognizing him as an equal. This relationship was more than fine in the original series and was well handled.

Shaq and Kobe didn't really like each other but they worked together for years. They were forced together and accepted it because if they don't work together they die. Sasuke eventually sees naruto as a rival, I absolutely agree they're rivals, but they're never really friends. The relationship has a rivals progression but not a friends one.

 

[Compbros]

What's up with all these Naruto threads lately? lol

I don't frequent this side of the board so I actually haven't seen many lol


Edit: double post, smh

 

[Just_myles]

Totally. Especially how things turned out.

Bleach still sucks though, right? Ishida v Ichigo never happened.

I hate you jump. I hate you Kubo

 

[cordy]

Oh you mean the WWE method huh? The "these wrestlers are best friends guys and although you don't see it please believe us because now they're bitter enemies" thing they do with like every other feud. Honestly I didn't mind it at all given Naruto/Sasuke have one of those "we hate each other but we really don't" relationships. I just assumed all of their "I dislike you / well I hate you too" happened off-screen and all and it's ok for me.

It's manga/anime.

There's way more I dislike about Naruto compared to that like why the hell did Naruto go from Pain's level to "I can destroy anyone in history except my rival" level in one massive arc rather than splitting it up? I get it but come on now lol.

 

[BADMAN]

Does Guts vs Griffith count? Cause I'd say that

EDIT: missed "unearned" disregard post

 

[theWB27]

Them being best friends was forced, but not them being friends in general up to that point. We saw their friendship develop through the Wave Country and Chuunin Exam arcs. Their rivalry was the core of their friendship. But I do think the development of their friendship, even up through the Chuunin Exam felt rushed, and it most likely was. Kishimoto had originally planned on spending more time on missions before the Chuunin Exam, but his editor said he should skip right to the exam/tournament arc because of the series' quickly growing popularity.



"Destiny" doesn't excuse the lack of build up. Even though the destiny theme was just that, an excuse.

The build up was watching these two on separate journeys whose conclusion was always going to clash because their vision's couldn't coexist.

They constantly harped on this.

 

[Vincent Alexander]

I dont agree at all. They worked as a team over the course of what is portrayed as several months starting with Sasuke not even acknowledging Naruto. That battle is the natural end of him fully recognizing him as an equal. This relationship was more than fine in the original series and was well handled.

I have many complaints against Naruto, but I have to agree here. I feel they actually did a really good job slowly building this up. Naruto was always trying to be better than Sasuke to win Sakura's affection. What is great is that this slowly morphs from not simply wanting Sakura's affection, but also Sasuke's. It is kind of sweet, the brotherly love he gains for him. But Sasuke mostly ignores him in both regards, not realizing until the Chuunin exams and after how much Naruto was catching up in terms of prowess. It pushed him to be better. Even then, he still won't acknowledge Naruto's power out loud yo him. As for their friendship, although you see them defend each other in combat many times, you also never see Sasuke fully acknowledge that he has grown to think better of Naruto. The fight between them is this great, bittersweet moment of Sasuke turning to acknowledge Naruto as his equal and as his friend for the first time.

Sorry if poorly written. On my cell phone.

 

[Already Torn]

That's the first time I started actually liking Usopp too.

 

[Laughing Banana]

You're talking about their fight at the waterfall, OP, before Sasuke went to Orochimaru?

I thing the emotional weight behind that fight was done well, actually. We've also given examples of how Naruto and Sasuke actually connects as friends (like in the fight against Gaara) who each have lost everything and found sanctuary with each other.

However, the handwave of everything that Sasuke does after the timeskip is the biggest bullshit of them all.

 

[Compbros]

The build up was watching these two on separate journeys whose conclusion was always going to clash because their vision's couldn't coexist.

They constantly harped on this.

You can say they were always gonna clash but where does the narrative that they're best friends come from? It's shoehorned into this fight.

 

[Compbros]

Oh you mean the WWE method huh? The "these wrestlers are best friends guys and although you don't see it please believe us because now they're bitter enemies" thing they do with like every other feud. Honestly I didn't mind it at all given Naruto/Sasuke have one of those "we hate each other but we really don't" relationships. I just assumed all of their "I dislike you / well I hate you too" happened off-screen and all and it's ok for me.

It's manga/anime.

There's way more I dislike about Naruto compared to that like why the hell did Naruto go from Pain's level to "I can destroy anyone in history except my rival" level in one massive arc rather than splitting it up? I get it but come on now lol.

That's called poor writing. When well done you see the teams interact and actually appear to be close and friends. Take the APA for example or Jericho/Owens for a more recent one. Then when the split happens it's told why it happened and there's a fallout. There's a lot of "just stick these two together" teams and that's just shitty writing/planning.

You can't hand wave away that it's manga/anime when I give an example of it done well from a manga.


Edit: Holy shit, stop double posting, self.

 

[Already Torn]

Eh...

Why is it backwards

 

[Kito]

What manipulative horseshit. This fight/arc basically retconned their relationship and forced the audience to believe that their relationship has been steadily growing. The problem is WE NEVER SEE IT. There are maybe, MAYBE 3 panels, not pages, not chapters, PANELS that show that they don't greatly dislike each other.

It's subtle. An obtuse reader like yourself isn't going to see it.

 

[Laughing Banana]

You can say they were always gonna clash but where does the narrative that they're best friends come from? It's shoehorned into this fight.

Uhhhhh, it's been built right from the very beginning when they were tested by Kakashi? You don't remember the rice balls?

Heck, Sasuke even admonished Sakura for making fun of Naruto.