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Have there been any definitive studies on gamers "playing" better above 30fps.

P

Psychoward

Banned
nekkid said:
I don't know why you bothered, OP. Clearly there's too many people for whom reading is just too much like hard work.

I've wondered this myself. A lot of arguments for 60fps being "objectively better" are trying to say "well these numbers add up to be lower, so it is better" which sounds logical, but seems ultimately like a car manufacturer stating theoretical fuel economy. I'm yet to be convinced that this translates to a measurable performance benefit in practice.
Click to expand...

nekkid said:
This is not what OP is asking, and in fact agrees with this point as a preface to their question.
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Lol

60fps is objectively smoother and that is not a debate.

This thread is a mess.

A better car analogy would be looking at a car that gives you 30mpg, and a car that gives you 60mpg and questioning whether the 60mpg car really has better mpg.
 
C

cuate

Banned
Harmen said:
I didn't say that? I used examples of genres where games are commonly 60 fps on consoles.
Click to expand...

you initially said most gamers prefer more graphics over more frames in games, exception being fps or fighters, where competition is high. and that that's why devs optimise for 30 fps non competitive games.
I disagree that that is the case, and that people are not as discerning or nitpicky to notice the difference in fidelity. the reason for 30 fps is due to devs valuing tech over performance, not due to user preference, as most prefer smoother motion.
 
T

Tagyhag

Member
respawnIN10 said:
I laugh out of joy! It's rare to see someone who truly believes something and doesn't simply have an opinion for the sake of response like most of Gaf.

I believe you are wrong, but I tip my cap to you sir!
Click to expand...

Wait, you think it's physically impossible for some people to see the difference?

You do know that MEDICALLY there's no such thing out there right?

There is definitely a difference between not caring about the difference, but every single person out there that can legally see, can see the difference.

Unless they're patient zero for a new eye disease...
 
nekkid

nekkid

It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
Psychoward said:
Lol

60fps is objectively smoother and that is not a debate.

This thread is a mess.
Click to expand...

It's only a mess because people, like you, are unable to comprehend the question. And then feel compelled to deride people who are.

Nobody is debating that 60fps feels nicer and is a smoother gameplay experience. The question is whether there is a measurable performance benefit between 30 and 60fps. And whether that extends beyond the psychological influence of it putting you in a better frame of mind.
 
R

respawnIN10

Banned
Tagyhag said:
Wait, you think it's physically impossible for some people to see the difference?

You do know that MEDICALLY there's no such thing out there right?

There is definitely a difference between not caring about the difference, but every single person out there that can legally see, can see the difference.

Unless they're patient zero for a new eye disease...
Click to expand...

Of course it's impossible to PROVE that even one person cannot tell the difference.
 
T

Tecnniqe

Banned
Yeah, it is and guess what its called?

tumblr_inline_opn2p7cz4D1rt9gu0_540.gif
 
P

Psychoward

Banned
respawnIN10 said:
Of course it's impossible to PROVE that even one person cannot tell the difference.
Click to expand...
Yeah they never said it was impossible, like they said that poster could be the first infected with a new disease that makes them incapable of processing life above 30fps, in which case you'd have to wonder how their eye doctors never picked up on it.
 
R

respawnIN10

Banned
Psychoward said:
Yeah they never said it was impossible, like they said that poster could be the first infected with a new disease that makes them incapable of processing life above 30fps, in which case you'd have to wonder how their eye doctors never picked up on it.
Click to expand...

Sarc...

Never mind
 
T

Tain

Member
I don't know of any studies, but this seems extremely hard to measure.

In theory more frames over the same amount of time should lead to "better performance" from a player's standpoint. Faster access to the information, faster feedback on the display.

Something that makes me pause before claiming it as objective truth here, however, is Guilty Gear Xrd. Xrd runs at 60fps overall, but its character animations do not (only keyframes, no interpolation), and the developers made this decision in the name of readability. I think there might be merit to the idea that a held image of something hard-to-decipher yet mechanically critical (like a humanoid character mid-animation in a fighting game) may lead to quicker processing on a player's end than a completely fluid motion representing the same thing.

I'm perfectly comfortable with generalizations here, though.
 
M

meerak

Member
You can point to a fact, but you can't tell people how to feel about it.

This is as far as we should go, but people, being so simple, try to demand everyone see it the same way. It's pretty sad really...

As someone who can tell the difference quite easily, and prefer high framerate for certain games... I really don't give a fuck in general. The vast majority of games have problems a mile long and deep that affect me far more than framerate. On the flip, a high framerate does absolutely nothing for me in terms of absolving what I see as real issues.

IMO the design genercism of games at many levels is more "alarming" and worth talking about than framerate. But framerate is numbers based, and so easy for people to talk out of their asses about. It's like asking people to debate which movie is the best based on ticket sales, then based on pacing and camera technique. Which of those is the more interesting debate I wonder...
 
S

ShdwDrake

Banned
Wow man people in this thread are hilariously stupid. 60FPS = less input delay because the screen is refreshing faster. Its facts. Case closed. End.

If it doesn't feel better that's just you man.
 
S

Swarna

Member
The thread title and content is incoherent. You probably wanted to title the thread "do gamers perform better above 30 FPS?" Most responses are off-topic as a result.

Here's another study including input lag with a quick google search...took all of 10 seconds...
http://www.csit.carleton.ca/~rteather/pdfs/Frame_Rate_Latency.pdf
fdx696p.png

f3y5VvU.png

Hqj0LaR.png
Click to expand...

Also, on a personal level, it's painfully obvious if you try to play something like Quake at 30, 60, uncapped FPS respectively that you perform better at higher FPS.
 
P

Psychoward

Banned
respawnIN10 said:
Sarc...

Never mind
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Lol what was sarcasm about your post since you seem so adamant that some people medically can'tt tell the difference? Unless you mean the poster you quoted was being sarcastic about the theoretical new eye affliction, in which case I doubt it since it doesn't exist.
 
nkarafo

nkarafo

Member
respawnIN10 said:
Of course it's impossible to PROVE that even one person cannot tell the difference.
Click to expand...
No but chances are that if one can't, then there is something else preventing him to do so. If i show you an orange i'm holding in my hand and you say you can't see it, i can't prove you are wrong or lying. All i can do is try to find out what stops you from seeing it because, you should see it.

This is what i did with a few friends of mine who also claimed they don't see the difference. Turns out they all can. It was just something in the way that prevented them to see it.
 
nekkid

nekkid

It doesn't matter who we are, what matters is our plan.
R

respawnIN10

Banned
Psychoward said:
Lol what was sarcasm about your post since you seem so adamant that some people medically cat tell the difference? Unless you mean the poster you quoted was being sarcastic about the theoretical new eye affliction, in which case I doubt it since it doesn't exist.
Click to expand...

You can't limit someone's perception to a medical condition. There are limitless factors that aren't and will never be taken into consideration in a place like this forum. Think of the picture of health marathon runner who suddenly drops dead during a race. No amount of science can explain what caused it. Yet it happened.
 
W

Wowfunhappy

Member
Have their been any definitive studies on movies looking better in color than in black and white?

I know that's an extreme example, but I don't think this is something you need studies for. Yes, even fast paced 30 fps games generally feel fine without a comparison point. But give someone a 30 fps <-> 60 fps toggle (with no other changes) and I'm pretty sure just about everyone will say the 60 fps version feels better.
 
T

Tecnniqe

Banned
Swarna said:
The thread title and content is incoherent. You probably wanted to title the thread "do gamers perform better above 30 FPS?" Most responses are off-topic as a result.

Here's another study including input lag with a quick google search...took all of 10 seconds...
http://www.csit.carleton.ca/~rteather/pdfs/Frame_Rate_Latency.pdf


Also, on a personal level, it's painfully obvious if you try to play something like Quake at 30, 60, uncapped FPS respectively that you perform better at higher FPS.
Click to expand...

Might as well add
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1cmhZs1P54
 
P

Psychoward

Banned
nkarafo

nkarafo

Member
Wowfunhappy said:
But give someone a 30 fps <-> 60 fps toggle (with no other changes) and I'm pretty sure just about everyone will say the 60 fps version feels better.
Click to expand...
This.

A toggle between 30/60fps, real time, while playing a game is the best way to notice the difference. You might also need to remove any motion blur effects for more clarity. The monitor/TV is also a factor. A shitty TV with terrible motion resolution will make the difference feel less drastic but it will still be very noticeable.

Back in the days of Quake 3 i made toggle commands for 20/30/60/100 fps on my CRT monitor. Everyone could tell the difference in real time, even between 60 and 100.


respawnIN10 said:
I can not tell the difference and none of you can prove to me otherwise.
Click to expand...
If i had the chance to show it to you, using my own setup, i'm 100% sure you would. But since i can't, yes, i can't prove it to you.

But if you have a 60hz TV/Monitor try this test, it's one of the better ones i saw so far.

http://testufo.com/#test=stutter&demo=smooth

Click on the "frame rate slowdowns" and look at the squares as they go from 30 to 60 fps.
 
F

Falk

that puzzling face
respawnIN10 said:
Point to you sir!

It's just so disheartening to see so many closed mind individuals on such a meaningless topic. I can not tell the difference and none of you can prove to me otherwise.
Click to expand...

r u a gamer tho this thread is about gamers

Swarna said:
The thread title and content is incoherent. You probably wanted to title the thread "do gamers perform better above 30 FPS?" Most responses are off-topic as a result.

Here's another study including input lag with a quick google search...took all of 10 seconds...
http://www.csit.carleton.ca/~rteather/pdfs/Frame_Rate_Latency.pdf
Click to expand...

Er, good point about the title itself. Edited.
 
rodrigolfp

rodrigolfp

Haptic Gamepads 4 Life
some people dont know what input lag is and that is a good thing because ignorance is a bliss in this case. the less you know, more you enjoy games at whatever framerate :)
 
T

Tecnniqe

Banned
respawnIN10 said:
Point to you sir!

It's just so disheartening to see so many closed mind individuals on such a meaningless topic. I can not tell the difference and none of you can prove to me otherwise.
Click to expand...

Because you are unable to see it
!?
that doesn't mean it's not true.

For instance if I was to swap the argument around, why is higher frame rate not better than lower and how do you prove it?

I even linked a youtube video for demonstration, while not perfect illustrates the difference in slow motion, in which that alone clearly have a difference to show.
 
G

Gotdatmoney

Member
I mean, I can instantly tell. Whether it makes a tangible difference is arguable and with less experienced gamers maybe they cants tell but there is a difference.
 
C

Crossing Eden

Hello, my name is Yves Guillemot, Vivendi S.A.'s Employee of the Month!
respawnIN10 said:
Point to you sir!

It's just so disheartening to see so many closed mind individuals on such a meaningless topic. I can not tell the difference and none of you can prove to me otherwise.
Click to expand...
Just because you can't tell the difference,
yes you can,
doesn't mean that there isn't objectively a difference between the two with one coming out on top.
 
B

bomblord1

Banned
Swarna said:
The thread title and content is incoherent. You probably wanted to title the thread "do gamers perform better above 30 FPS?" Most responses are off-topic as a result.

Here's another study including input lag with a quick google search...took all of 10 seconds...
http://www.csit.carleton.ca/~rteather/pdfs/Frame_Rate_Latency.pdf


Also, on a personal level, it's painfully obvious if you try to play something like Quake at 30, 60, uncapped FPS respectively that you perform better at higher FPS.
Click to expand...

I uh attempted to redo the OP to be more coherent. And thanks for the link
 
R

respawnIN10

Banned
Tecnniqe said:
Because you are unable to see it
!?
that doesn't mean it's not true.

For instance if I was to swap the argument around, why is higher frame rate not better than lower?

I even linked a youtube video for demonstration, while not perfect illustrates the difference in slow motion, in which that alone clearly have a difference to show.
Click to expand...

I'm not arguing that a higher framrate isn't better. I'm saying that I physically cannot tell the difference between 30 and 60fps. Something must be wrong with me.
 
T

Timedog

good credit (by proxy)
You don't need a study for the blatantly obvious. Move your mouse with high sensitivity in an fps at lower framerate. Hard to tell what's going on.
 
B

Ballistic Peanut

Neo Member
Shmuppers said:
Dark Souls plays better at 30 FPS! Any higher and you'll start falling out of world lol.
Click to expand...

My first playthrough was in 60fps, all you need to do is remember to toggle to 30fps when sliding down latters and jumping.

Although because of how slow Dark Souls plays in the first place, I'm perfectly OK with playing it at 30fps.
 
S

Sotha_Sil

Member
Don't play the game myself, but CSGO players seem to think it helps them get an edge with reaction times and precision aiming.

For me, it just makes the games smoother. I found in Prey that tracking enemies at 90fps was really easy to do and I could pull off quick shots on lunging enemies that would have been difficult at lower framerates due to the chaos that can happen on screen.
 
T

Tracygill

Member
Vast majority of gamers prefers 120 Hz monitors
When 86 percent of 50 gamers indicate they prefer gaming on a 120 Hz monitor, and 88 percent also correctly identified which refresh rate their monitor had, there's no doubt about it. Gaming on a 120 Hz really does provide a superior experience. During the event we more than once heard participants exclaiming they had to get one of those 120 Hz monitors soon.
Click to expand...
giphy.gif

giphy.gif

giphy.gif


Separating the controls(controller, mice, wheel) from the display makes the lag less obvious.

Visit a store and compare the new 120 hz Ipad and the old 60 hz Ipad. Seeing it in person makes a difference.
 
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