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[Slayven]

Not sure what you are saying here? That literally nothing has been done?

Plenty has been done. Plenty of fuckery.

When they freed the slaves they delayed telling them for 2 months to get another harvest out of them

Confederate generals and officers ended up talking alot of jobs in the governement

Sharecorpping and the brand new narritve that black people are lazy.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thats just after the civil war, like months. We we still got Jim Crow and the fun of Reconstruction.

No the nation has never properly advdressed slavery and it's lingering effects

 

[Temeculan3000]

Do you see people still waving around Confederate flags acting like its all about states rights and all that jazz? Then we haven't done nearly enough.

Yes not enough has been done, but the quoted post said "never addressed".

 

[Gigglepoo]

Okay so you don't actually see why a show about Nazis and a show about the confederacy are not comparable?
Was the Confederacy punished like the Nazis were?
Are there any statues celebrating Nazis?
Are there still people that proudly fly a Nazi flag in Germany?
Are there Nazi flags on government buildings?

There were consequences and closer with what the Nazis did, there was none of that with the Confederacy. The two are not comparable.

Exactly

Germans feel incredible shame for WW2 and Southerners are still celebrating their Confederate heritage. Huge difference.

 

[BigDug13]

If we lived in a world where there wasn't a large segment of the US population that wishes the premise of the show was our current reality, then maybe it would be an ok concept to explore.

 

[norm9]

Yes not enough has been done, but the quoted post said "never addressed".

When the confederates gets welcomed back into the fold, then yeah, never addressed.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

I will still refuse to watch this shit. Nope. Ideally they wouldn't even be able to find black actors to star in this shit.

If we lived in a world where there wasn't a large segment of the US population that wishes the premise of the show was our current reality, then maybe it would be an ok concept to explore.

Winner winner chicken dinner!

 

[dabig2]

Okay so you don't actually see why a show about Nazis and a show about the confederacy are not comparable?
Was the Confederacy punished like the Nazis were?
Are there any statues celebrating Nazis?
Are there still people that proudly fly a Nazi flag in Germany?
Are there Nazi flags on government buildings?

There were consequences and closer with what the Nazis did, there was none of that with the Confederacy. The two are not comparable.

Yuuuup. Reminder that we're dealing with shit like this in America:

I guarantee if the German goverment worshiped and idolized the Nazis like a good portion of Americans idolize the Confederacy and the white supremacy they stood for (whether they admit or not as they hide behind "culture"), that a lot of these alternate history programs involving Nazis would also be derided.

 

[Stiler]

Why are people are upset over the show at the same time they watch The Handmaid's Tale or Man in the High Castle, both of which get critical praise?

It's a fictional story about a "what if" scenario. It's obviously NOT going to be pro-slavery, just like the handmaid's tale is definitely not anti-feminism or women's rights.

Just what are people upset about?

 

[HStallion]

Yes not enough has been done, but the quoted post said "never addressed".

That's my point. Its not really been addressed and nowhere near like what Germany did after World War 2. We never did the whole soul searching and learning from the mistakes of history and instead people glorified the Confederacy and used its imagery and "heroes" to intimidate minorities well after the fact. So yeah, it wasn't ever addressed except for the ugliest parts of America who dressed up the South, the Civil War and the Confederacy as something to be proud of and entrench it in many parts of American society.

Why are people are upset over the show at the same time they watch The Handmaid's Tale or Man in the High Castle, both of which get critical praise?

It's a fictional story about a "what if" scenario. It's obviously NOT going to be pro-slavery, just like the handmaid's tale is definitely not anti-feminism or women's rights.

Just what are people upset about?

Yeah I mean its not like there is a race problem in America and the idea of the Confederacy and everything about it isn't some kind of mastubatory material for a scary large part of the USA. Nah everything's cool, why are you all getting outraged?

 

[Temeculan3000]

When the confederates gets welcomed back into the fold, then yeah, never addressed.

C'mon you really think allowing the Confederate states to split and keep slavery would have been a better outcome?


Edit: it sounds like most of you are saying never FULLY addressed, not never addressed in any capacity whatsoever. There I agree.

 

[Slayven]

C'mon you really think allowing the Confederate states to split and keep slavery would have been a better outcome?

No sending the generals to prison instead of giving them the power to make laws

 

[norm9]

C'mon you really think allowing the Confederate states to split and keep slavery would have been a better outcome?

Nah. Didn't say that. Restitution to the slaves, executions for traitors, illegal to wAve enemy flag, etc. That's a start. That's not what we got.

 

[HStallion]

C'mon you really think allowing the Confederate states to split and keep slavery would have been a better outcome?


Edit: it sounds like most of you are saying never FULLY addressed, not never addressed in any capacity whatsoever.

If I cut off my own arm and the only thing I do to try and deal with it is stick a single band aid on it and tell myself to stop bleeding out then I addressed the problem but nowhere near enough to actually stop it, let alone heal it.

 

[FinaruDensetsu]

Seeing how shitty benioff and weiss have been once they ran out of GRR's blueprint to guide them with ASOIAF I have no doubt Confederate will be complete shit.

 

[Enzom21]

C'mon you really think allowing the Confederate states to split and keep slavery would have been a better outcome?


Edit: it sounds like most of you are saying never FULLY addressed, not never addressed in any capacity whatsoever.

Aside from freeing the slaves, how was it addressed?

 

[Temeculan3000]

Nah. Didn't say that. Restitution to the slaves, executions for traitors, illegal to wAve enemy flag, etc. That's a start. That's not what we got.

Sorry I read your post as Confederate states not Confederate generals/officers etc..

 

[Blader]

How has it ?

The 13th Amendment, to start with. If slavery had never been addressed, then this

When they freed the slaves they delayed telling them for 2 months to get another harvest out of them

would not have just been for another harvest, it would have been in perpetuity.

Do you see people still waving around Confederate flags acting like its all about states rights and all that jazz? Then we haven't done nearly enough.

Is not doing enough the same thing as never addressing?

Never addressing slavery and racism means blacks can't vote at all and that slavery is still legal. Not doing enough on racism is why many blacks are still disenfranchised through racist voter suppression laws or why black households are on average far more economically disadvantaged than white households. But the post I was responding to was not making that distinction.

 

[Stiler]

That's my point. Its not really been addressed and nowhere near like what Germany did after World War 2. We never did the whole soul searching and learning from the mistakes of history and instead people glorified the Confederacy and used its imagery and "heroes" to intimidate minorities well after the fact. So yeah, it wasn't ever addressed except for the ugliest parts of America who dressed up the South, the Civil War and the Confederacy as something to be proud of and entrench it in many parts of American society.



Yeah I mean its not like there is a race problem in America and the idea of the Confederacy and everything about it isn't some kind of mastubatory material for a scary large part of the USA. Nah everything's cool, why are you all getting outraged?

I could understand that point of view IF the show was going to be pro-slavery, but it's obviously not (they'd be nuts to do that). The slaves will be the protags and the slavers will be the villains. Which is literally how almost any slavery movie (12 years a slave, etc) is and not a single person complains about them for the sake of "modern" pro-confederate nuts.

Do you have a problem with Haindmaid's Tale? Which is a fictional story about women being placed back into subservient roles ruled by men while the main character tries to overcome it and survive?

 

[Anung]

No sending the generals to prison instead of giving them the power to make laws

Something like the Nuremberg Trails with executions would have been a start.

 

[Crimson_Echidna]

So, still missing the plot.

Yep, it's a case of "We're sorry this is making us look bad."

 

[FStubbs]

I dont trust the Game of Thrones writers with racial issues at all. They enjoy violent, pornographic material too much and it's my firm belief they would put out the equivalent of Goodbye Uncle Tom if they believed they could get away with it.
Frankly, Im still annoyed with the Orientalist way non-White people and cultures were depicted in some of those Game of Thrones episodes. I still have flashbacks to the scenes where they made sure to have the darkest of Black people playing slavers or slaves and hundreds of brown people bowing down in fealty and worship to an Aryan White queen.

That's something I never understood. If Valyria was in that same part of the world originally and the Targaryens are inbred, shouldn't she be brown-skinned?

 

[Temeculan3000]

Aside from freeing the slaves, how was it addressed?

You are well aware of what has and hasn't been done. It's more than nothing, it's less than "enough". Admitting some progress has been made doesn't mean you have to admit everything is perfect.

 

[Roronoa Zoro]

Wait alternative history with the southern states winning? I’m all about that story. As a historian it’s an incredible alternate history scenario. Hell we all enjoyed Wolfenstein the new order. That doesn’t make us nazi supporters. You can frame the southern side as bad is all. Like don’t romanticize it and I’m cool

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

You are well aware of what has and hasn't been done. It's more than nothing, it's less than "enough". Admitting some progress has been made doesn't mean you have to admit everything is perfect.

The president just called black athletes who protest the anthem sons of bitches and that they should be fired.

It's not progress if it's constantly being undone.

 

[HStallion]

The fucking 13th Amendment, to start with.



Is not doing enough the same thing as never addressing?

Never addressing slavery and racism means blacks can't vote at all and that slavery is still legal. Not doing enough on racism is why many blacks are still disenfranchised through racist voter suppression laws or why black households are on average far more economically disadvantaged than white households. But the post I was responding to was not making that distinction.

You realize black people were still incredibly disenfranchised ever after they were freed right? Things weren't all kittens and rainbows once the Confederacy fell and to requote myself:

If I cut off my own arm and the only thing I do to try and deal with it is stick a single band aid on it and tell myself to stop bleeding out then I addressed the problem but nowhere near enough to actually stop it, let alone heal it.

I could understand that point of view IF the show was going to be pro-slavery, but it's obviously not (they'd be nuts to do that). The slaves will be the protags and the slavers will be the villains. Which is literally how almost any slavery movie (12 years a slave, etc) is and not a single person complains about them for the sake of "modern" pro-confederate nuts.

Do you have a problem with Haindmaid's Tale? Which is a fictional story about women being placed back into subservient roles ruled by men while the main character tries to overcome it and survive?

Maybe people are just tired of seeing black people in slave roles have you thought about that? In this day and age when they're struggling for better and more varied representation and the thing that always comes back is slavery and the confederacy. There are reasons people are championing Aaron McGruder's project over this one.

Not too mention you might want to read up on this project because they specifically talk about representing both sides well and all that bull shit. I can't wait to see the slaver whose actually a great guy because he doesn't beat his slaves like those obviously evil slavers.

 

[Nafai1123]

The 13th Amendment, to start with. If slavery had never been addressed, then this



would not have just been for another harvest, it would have been in perpetuity.



Is not doing enough the same thing as never addressing?

Never addressing slavery and racism means blacks can't vote at all and that slavery is still legal. Not doing enough on racism is why many blacks are still disenfranchised through racist voter suppression laws or why black households are on average far more economically disadvantaged than white households. But the post I was responding to was not making that distinction.

I would highly suggest watching the documentary "13th."

Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States

 

[Neece]

I could understand that point of view IF the show was going to be pro-slavery, but it's obviously not (they'd be nuts to do that). The slaves will be the protags and the slavers will be the villains. Which is literally how almost any slavery movie (12 years a slave, etc) is and not a single person complains about them for the sake of "modern" pro-confederate nuts.

Do you have a problem with Haindmaid's Tale? Which is a fictional story about women being placed back into subservient roles ruled by men while the main character tries to overcome it and survive?

The press release made it sound as if there will be protags on “both sides” ala Game of Thrones, where evil characters like Cersei and Jamie are still humanized and framed as sympathetic protagonists. And even characters like Ramsay and Euron are written to be charismatic and comically evil, to the point that they garner fan bases.

The story follows a broad swath of characters on both sides of the Mason-Dixon Demilitarized Zone — freedom fighters, slave hunters, politicians, abolitionists, journalists, the executives of a slave-holding conglomerate and the families of people in their thrall.

I very much doubt the show runners of GOT are going to roll with a good slaves vs evil slavemasters format.

 

[Temeculan3000]

The president just called black athletes who protest the anthem sons of bitches and that they should be fired.

It's not progress if it's constantly being undone.

Trump is setting the country back, but he won't be President forever. The country will get past him and move in the right direction.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

Trump is setting the country back, but he won't be President forever. The country will get past him and move in the right direction.

That was just one out of countless examples.

 

[Haines]

I completely understand the arguements of not wanting the show to be made but its hard for me to hate on something when there is so little to judge.

It could be very well thought out and you could all love it.

 

[HStallion]

Trump is setting the country back, but he won't be President forever. The country will get past him and move in the right direction.

Bigotry is part of the make up of the American experience. Trump no longer being President is not going to stop or hinder anything in terms to the racial issues in America. The Nazis researched our country because of how good we were at institutionalizing our racism and oppressing the minorities of our country. The Nazis thought we were the role model for their bigoted fascist Utopia.

 

[Giolon]

critisizing an idea is very normal. when a politician floats the idea of a bill and we don't like it we critisize it and hope they get the message. we do not wait for it to become law.

Fortunately, this is an idea for a TV entertainment show and not a law. The parellels aren't even remotely close because the stakes aren't even remotely the same. A law has the power to rule your life. A TV show does not. If you don't like a TV show, you can completely ignore it (and/or criticize it if you will).

And the furor I saw went far beyond just criticism or showing concern for how sensitive issues would be handled to straight calling for it to never be made in the first place and calls to fire the people involved in greenlighting it. That's a bit much.

Or if we're truly at a place where the threat of bad television is just as dire to people as the threat of bad law, then all perspective has clearly been lost.

 

[Temeculan3000]

That was just one out of countless examples.

Do you truly think we are on a backwards path when it comes to race? 10-20 years from now do you think things will be better or worse?

 

[Blader]

You realize black people were still incredibly disenfranchised ever after they were freed right? Things weren't all kittens and rainbows once the Confederacy fell and to requote myself:

Yes, I know that. When have I ever argued to the contrary? Why are you putting words in my mouth? When did I ever say everything has been kittens and rainbows for black people since the Civil War ended? What part of the post you just quoted makes you think in any way that's what I think, much less what I wrote?

Here is what I responded to:

America has never addressed its own slavery and racism issue since "winning" the war.

To say that America has never addressed slavery and racism is to say that life for black Americans is no different today than it was in 1865. My opinion is that this is a stupid thing to say because it is plainly untrue. That doesn't mean I think we're anywhere near "kittens and rainbows" when it comes to dealing with racism.

Goddamn. Don't make up shit and try to attach my name to it.

I would highly suggest watching the documentary "13th."

I've seen it. It's a great film.

 

[Lois_Lane]

I understand why the show's concept is so problematic, and agree with many of those criticisms, particularly because I am beyond sick and tired of African-American portrayals in film and TV being so predominantly limited to slavery and civil rights stories.

But what I don't understand is why something like The Man in the High Castle, or any kind of "what if the Nazis won" historical fiction, gets a pass -- particularly now, when actual Neo Nazis are marching, carrying swastikas, yelling 'Jews will not replace us,' and, you know, killing people!

What happened when the Nazis lost?

We shot many of the survivors, their home nation banned them, and we turned them into universal baddies. Villains who anyone from anywhere and any culture can kill without remorse because they're fucking nazis.

What happened when the Confederates lost?

We let them back into office, allowed them to operate their own terrorist groups unimpinged, and built statues in their honor.

How do these two things even begin to compare?

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

I feel like the people looking forward to this are the same people who will tell you Nazism on the rise in America is overblown

Watch them do something like dedicate the first episode to the memory of Heather Heyer or some shit

 

[HStallion]

Yes, I know that. When have I ever argued to the contrary? Why are you putting words in my mouth? When did I ever say everything has been kittens and rainbows for black people since the Civil War ended? What part of the post you just quoted makes you think in any way that's what I think, much less what I wrote?

Here is what I responded to:



To say that America has never addressed slavery and racism is to say that life for black Americans is no different today than it was in 1865. My opinion is that this is a stupid thing to say because it is plainly untrue. That doesn't mean I think we're anywhere near "kittens and rainbows" when it comes to dealing with racism.

Goddamn. Don't make up shit and try to attach my name to it.



I've seen it. It's a great film.

And throwing a cup of water on a 5 alarm house fire is "addressing" the problem. Don't act like the problem was addressed in any meaningful way because we won a war over a century ago and gave people the rights they deserved from the very start.

 

[Enzom21]

You are well aware of what has and hasn't been done. It's more than nothing, it's less than "enough". Admitting some progress has been made doesn't mean you have to admit everything is perfect.

I didn't ask you to tell me what hasn't been done, I asked you to explain what has.
You seem to think something other than freeing slaves was addressed and I would like to know what it was.

To say that America has never addressed slavery and racism is to say that life for black Americans is no different today than it was in 1865. My opinion is that this is a stupid thing to say because it is plainly untrue. That doesn't mean I think we're anywhere near "kittens and rainbows" when it comes to dealing with racism.

Aside from freeing slaves, how has America addressed slavery?
I see you dropped the Man in High Castle comparison.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

Do you truly think we are on a backwards path when it comes to race? 10-20 years from now do you think things will be better or worse?

The same at best, which is the worst outcome.

 

[Blader]

I completely understand the arguements of not wanting the show to be made but its hard for me to hate on something when there is so little to judge.

It could be very well thought out and you could all love it.

This is how I feel about it too. I don't even know what I'm looking at until there's a trailer, or least some kind of descriptive rundown of what is going on in this show.

If it's more slavery torture porn -- even well-made slavery torture porn, like 12 Years a Slave -- I'm not interested. Like I said earlier in the thread, I'm beyond tired of Hollywood framing just about every story about African-Americans in a slavery or civil rights context.

And throwing a cup of water on a 5 alarm house fire is "addressing" the problem. Don't act like the problem was addressed in any meaningful way because we won a war over a century ago and gave people the rights they deserved from the very start.

Problems can be addressed in meaningful ways without being fully or satisfyingly resolved. I can looking at the Voting Rights Act as a meaningful achievement even if far too many states today are trying to push black disenfranchisement as much as they can.

I don't know what your issue with me is, I clearly agree that racism is a fundamental problem that continues to permeate every level of our society today, despite progress made in the past. Just because I think we've made serious progress, legislatively and otherwise, on this does not mean I think the fight is anywhere near over, so stop acting like that is in any way my position.

 

[Hydrus]

Just stick to the future Game of Thrones spinoffs HBO, and continue watching the money pour in.

 

[Temeculan3000]

I didn't ask you to tell me what hasn't been done, I asked you to explain what has.
You seem to think something other than freeing slaves was addressed and I would like to know what it was.

This sounds like some sort of bait and I don't think you are being honest. Rather it seems you are attempting to catch me in some sort of word game or gotcha. I don't know what you are trying to accomplish or if you think there is some hidden motive in my posts.

Many laws have been passed since the abolition of slavery that attempt to address the inequalities in our society. Inequalities created out of the institution of slavery and decades of institutional racsim. Is everything all perfect now? No. Have the issues created by slavery and racism been fully rectified? No. I'm not sure what you are getting at exactly.

 

[HStallion]

This is how I feel about it too. I don't even know what I'm looking at until there's a trailer, or least some kind of descriptive rundown of what is going on in this show.

If it's more slavery torture porn -- even well-made slavery torture porn, like 12 Years a Slave -- I'm not interested. Like I said earlier in the thread, I'm beyond tired of Hollywood framing just about every story about African-Americans in a slavery or civil rights context.



Problems can be addressed in meaningful ways without being fully or satisfyingly resolved. I can looking at the Voting Rights Act as a meaningful achievement even if far too many states today are trying to push black disenfranchisement as much as they can.

Yeah and they haven't been very meaningfully addressed if you ask me. We haven't even really addressed what happened to the Native Americans in this country let alone dealing with the fall out from the Civil War.

 

[kewlmyc]

Sounds interesting to be perfectly honest, though the timing of the announcement is pretty bad. Would have been neat a year ago.

 

[norm9]

Yeah and they haven't been very meaningfully addressed if you ask me. We haven't even really addressed what happened to the Native Americans in this country let alone dealing with the fall out from the Civil War.

Dances With Wolves addressed it...in the epilogue.

An epilogue states that thirteen years later the last remnants of the free Sioux were subjugated to the American government, ending the conquest of the Western frontier states and the livelihoods of the tribes on the Great Plains.

That's about it. Other than a small paragraph or two in history books on the trail of tears.

 

[Enzom21]

I completely understand the arguements of not wanting the show to be made but its hard for me to hate on something when there is so little to judge.

It could be very well thought out and you could all love it.

As people have pointed out, the chances of that are slim with the people helming this:

This sounds like some sort of bait and I don't think you are being honest. Rather it seems you are attempting to catch me in some sort of word game or gotcha. I don't know what you are trying to accomplish or if you think there is some hidden motive in my posts.

Many laws have been passed since the abolition of slavery that attempt to address the inequalities in our society. Inequalities created out of the institution of slavery and decades of institutional racsim. Is everything all perfect now? No. Have the issues created by slavery and racism been fully rectified? No. I'm not sure what you are getting at exactly.

How exactly does it sound like bait? I am asking you how the country addressed the confederacy not how it addressed inequality.
Nothing was done with the confederacy but you seem to think there was so I would like to hear it.

 

[orava]

Wait, people are against this? The premise sounds amazing to me.

 

[Blader]

Yeah and they haven't been very meaningfully addressed if you ask me. We haven't even really addressed what happened to the Native Americans in this country let alone dealing with the fall out from the Civil War.

if something as plainly and obviously transformative as the right to vote or the goddamn abolition of slavery don't count as meaningful measures of progress in your eyes, then I don't know what to tell you.

I agree that this country is basically taught to never give a shit about Native Americans.

 

[Temeculan3000]

How exactly does it sound like bait? I am asking you how the country addressed the confederacy not how it addressed inequality.
Nothing was done with the confederacy but you seem to think there was so I would like to hear it.

No-where did you say Confederacy before. I thought we were talking about slavery.

Reconstructionism is how the Confederacy was dealt with. The 13th, 14th, & 15th amendments.

Before you attempt to attack me again. I am making zero claim on how effectively the Confederacy was dealt with.

Also I am not defending the show. I just came into this thread because I was curious what the show was, having never heard of it.

 

[Dynamite Shikoku]

What are they doing? Chasing the alt right trump voter viewer?