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Horizon's AI is some of the worst I have seen
- Thread starter JayWood2010
- Start date
To have a sort of activity and a Meta commentary about Mass Murder in RPG/ Adventure games I think. The interaction with Nils about it is fantastic and imo worth it for that alone.
Wouldn't mind if they buffed up the bandit camp human AI though (which they can, as I have already mentioned that already on occasion the human AI gets buffed up, specifically in missions).
MaKTaiL
Member
I hate these "X has the worse Y I've seen" threads. You obviously haven't played a lot of games to make that statement. There will always be something worse. Skyrim AI is laughable at best but it's still a fun game. Horizon's AI is ok but definitely not the worst out there and definitely not game breaker since humans are not the focus at all.
It's a skill, you can learn it pretty early, but it has an insane range a will only ever pull one human or machine at a time, for a more often then not instant kill and as they don't care much about dead comrades, you can just pile up the bodies if you want. Only the biggest machines and ones capable of flying are immune to the strategy.
MetalliCabombination
Member
Not even a hint of exaggeration detected
JayWood2010
Member
Well thats a pretty big assumption. I practically buy most big releases for every console + PC. Wouldnt have a clue on how many games ive played in my life. Several hundred, though.
People have got to try and increase their "Thread success ratio" somehow.
tearsintherain
Member
Its easy to cheese the AI in HZD because 90% of combat environments are in an open space and enemies eventually leash, plus there are a million places to hide in and breaking LOS usually will drop aggro.
That doesn't really mean its the worst AI. If you go up and stand toe to toe at the hardest difficulty levels you will usually die. If you try to 100% stealth everything (no alerts / bodies found) you will find yourself detected too often (you can still kill everything easy, but you would have broken your self-imposed "stealth only" rule). I never once used the whistle ability because I felt it was a bit too cheesy for the game, especially the way it worked against the AI.
Its definitely not a combat driven game, I'd say more the combat serves to keep the story moving forward and give the player a level of challenge they deem appropriate for themselves, similar to most open world games. You can make it more difficult if you want, or you can do stuff like basically cheese the AI to make everything easy - I did the latter, no regrets, fighting humans was boring as hell and I much more enjoyed the tactical fights against robodinos, especially trying to figure out where to hit with what.
I mean the devs could have easily ramped up the difficulty, just made it so LOS doesn't get broken, NPCs never leash, and once detected enemies don't lose you in cover or anything but that woulda been very frustrating and unfun for most people I think.
That doesn't really mean its the worst AI. If you go up and stand toe to toe at the hardest difficulty levels you will usually die. If you try to 100% stealth everything (no alerts / bodies found) you will find yourself detected too often (you can still kill everything easy, but you would have broken your self-imposed "stealth only" rule). I never once used the whistle ability because I felt it was a bit too cheesy for the game, especially the way it worked against the AI.
Its definitely not a combat driven game, I'd say more the combat serves to keep the story moving forward and give the player a level of challenge they deem appropriate for themselves, similar to most open world games. You can make it more difficult if you want, or you can do stuff like basically cheese the AI to make everything easy - I did the latter, no regrets, fighting humans was boring as hell and I much more enjoyed the tactical fights against robodinos, especially trying to figure out where to hit with what.
I mean the devs could have easily ramped up the difficulty, just made it so LOS doesn't get broken, NPCs never leash, and once detected enemies don't lose you in cover or anything but that woulda been very frustrating and unfun for most people I think.
JayWood2010
Member
In all seriousness, Im not even slightly exaggerating. I could go redo the mission and record it. It is a lot worst than how I described it. I was pretty amazed at how easily enemies couldnt find me once they lost line of sight. I was able to hide in patches of grass even though they were within 20 feet, and they manage to lose me.
I really don't think the Human AI is any different than the dinosaur AI other than the attacks.
I can kill many of the Dinobots in the same way. What makes hiding from them more challenging is that the taller ones can more easily see you in grass after they are alerted.
You can even sit in tall grass and whistle robots and humans over in the exact same fashion. You can whistle over and individual standing in a group right near you, and kill him in plain sight, but as long as you are in grass, no one really bats an eye. The same thing applies to the robots.
I can kill many of the Dinobots in the same way. What makes hiding from them more challenging is that the taller ones can more easily see you in grass after they are alerted.
You can even sit in tall grass and whistle robots and humans over in the exact same fashion. You can whistle over and individual standing in a group right near you, and kill him in plain sight, but as long as you are in grass, no one really bats an eye. The same thing applies to the robots.
forknknife
Banned
When I saw they were taking the whole tall grass hiding mechanic that was so dumb in uncharted 4 I was very worried, is so tacky and exploitable like OP said, takes me out of the experience completely.
Only works for watchers, none of the other aggressive bots will fall for it. Like i was hiding in the bushes, lured over a Watcher and killed him. A sawtooth saw the body and came over, instantly spotted me in the bushes.
Ultraweave lol. You don't even need to sneak, just walk right up. Deathbringers become a joke.
Nah, I've been in the same exact scenario and killed a sawtooth from the same spot in stealth after killing a watcher.
Edit: Any robot will see you hiding in the grass if it's in the yellow state and you it's eye light is shining on you long enough. I think some are faster than others, but I've never really had a problem doing things like this unless the robot or human got alerted to my position. Also, enemies will attack where they think you shot an arrow from if they become suspicious from you long range killing someone. You can actually move from that spot and they will still fire or attack towards your old position.
Primethius
Banned
You can kill a Sawtooth from stealth? News to me. Guess they are weak as shit on normal.
MegaSackman
Member
You can't kill a Sawtooth in one hit tho... you need like three criticals and the trick only works once.
You can kinda negate that by moving a little after killing the Watcher, so you can set up a stealth attack on the incoming Sawtooth, just have to be quick to finish it off if you haven't got the improve stealth attack damage skills or if far enough you can just O
verride
Edit: lol, was also thinking of Scrappers.
Oh darn, sorry, I was thinking of the scrapper. You're right, you need multiple criticals to kill a Sawtooth. The same thing still applies though in that I was able to critical hit a sawtooth from grass after I stealth killed a smaller machine. The Sawtooth was in the suspicion state.
Sorry for the mixup though. The scrappers litterally look like they have saws for teeth so I confuse them.
GifGafIsTheBestGaf
Member
Nil and it was 200% worth it
MegaSackman
Member
Yeah, you can one hit Watchers and Scrappers, they are pretty common early game but after you leave the first area they are less common, or the least of your concerns.
Yeah? It wouldn't be any fun if you couldn't so I don't really see the issue with that...
Tajaz2426
Psychology PhD from Wikipedia University
The human A.I. isn't great, but why bring Zelda into this? I have about 10 to 15 hours into Zelda and are we playing the same game? The monsters in the world are extremely easy. It is the same hit, hit, stamina, hit move. Some disappear land close to you, hit, slash, disappear. There is nothing special about the A?I. in Zelda, it is the same as any other hack and slash game. There is barely any strategy besides figuring out what runes to use in certain situations. The animals are ridiculously dumb, I can throw a bomb at them and they sit there even if it roles right next to them and they wait till I detonate. The world is pretty darn empty too.
Now back to the topic, I think they will improve it if they make a sequel, as it has been stated on most major forums and websites. Heck, they may even fix it in an update if possible. I don't know much about how games are made, so to all our resident experts, can it be fixed in an update or would it have to totally change the game? I'm not a big gameplay guy as I play video games for the stories, as I am a big book reader and I believe video games are a great medium for bringing books alive. So, would it totally change the game or is it simply so kind of algorithm that it runs on?
Tal Shiar Agent
Member
It pretty much is, which is fine, because Nil is one of the greatest side characters ever and the AI is serviceable enough.
Yeah, you can one hit Watchers and Scrappers, they are pretty common early game but after you leave the first area they are less common, or the least of your concerns.
I know. I'm pretty far through the game I'm on the
Grave-Hoard
Cauldrons
Sawtooths are childs play though. I just stealth critical them, set them on fire, heavy attack twice to knock them down, then re-critical.
I haven't tried fighting the
behemoths
Thunderjaw and two Reapers
Edit: I should try and override a
Thunderjaw
CopperPuppy
Member
MegaSackman
Member
They launched a patch yesterday with improvements to AI in humans and machine (it's in the patch notes) but I have no idea to what extent, I imagine not much but it seems they can still tweak things in this game.
I'm not convinced that the problem with human enemies is merely the AI (although is the biggest one).
Machines are close to perfect in terms of functionality, not saying they have perfect AI but there's little to argue about the battles you have with them so, I don't mind if they don't touch anything there.
Chronospherics
Member
The effectiveness of the bushes in concealing Alloy doesn't make the AI bad. It's an intentional design attribute that she effectively goes invisible, when entering these places.
The AI in this case, are performing exactly as they have been told to, and it's the design of those hiding spots that are at fault here.
You can do similar in many stealth games, for instance in Metal Gear it's easy to accrue a stack of corpses in the same location. They will all fall for the same thing, because that's explicitly how the game has been designed.
I do think the concealment that bushes offer is overpowered and needs tweaking for the future, but I think you miss understand what constitutes bad AI. The AI in this case is functioning perfectly as intended, the games stealth hasn't been designed to be that challenging, but that doesn't make them bad. They aren't failing their path-finding or anything like that.
The AI for the human soldiers is relatively unremarkable, if anything, but you probably spend 10% or less of the game actually fighting those enemies. There are only four or five bandit camps in the game, for instance, the open world is generally populated with Horizon's creatures, which have diverse AI.
Zelda's AI is as bad if not worse than Horizon's. I've been playing the game with the stealth suit, and here's an easy way to cheese any enemy.
Walk up to their encampment. Let them chase you until they reach the edge of their aggro range.
They will begin walking back towards where they are supposed to be in the world.
You can now jog up to them and back stab them, one after they other. None of them will react.
You can do this to almost 100% of the open world encounters in the game. Just a few wizards and special mobs that exhibit different behaviour.
The AI in this case, are performing exactly as they have been told to, and it's the design of those hiding spots that are at fault here.
You can do similar in many stealth games, for instance in Metal Gear it's easy to accrue a stack of corpses in the same location. They will all fall for the same thing, because that's explicitly how the game has been designed.
I do think the concealment that bushes offer is overpowered and needs tweaking for the future, but I think you miss understand what constitutes bad AI. The AI in this case is functioning perfectly as intended, the games stealth hasn't been designed to be that challenging, but that doesn't make them bad. They aren't failing their path-finding or anything like that.
The AI for the human soldiers is relatively unremarkable, if anything, but you probably spend 10% or less of the game actually fighting those enemies. There are only four or five bandit camps in the game, for instance, the open world is generally populated with Horizon's creatures, which have diverse AI.
Zelda's AI is as bad if not worse than Horizon's. I've been playing the game with the stealth suit, and here's an easy way to cheese any enemy.
Walk up to their encampment. Let them chase you until they reach the edge of their aggro range.
They will begin walking back towards where they are supposed to be in the world.
You can now jog up to them and back stab them, one after they other. None of them will react.
You can do this to almost 100% of the open world encounters in the game. Just a few wizards and special mobs that exhibit different behaviour.
King Gilga
Member
No, it's bad. Just watching the giant bomb quicklook was enough to see that.
Peroroncino
Member
It's super dumb when you're sneaking, but mid-combat it's alright.
It's a stupid design, especially apparent when the grass is only covering about half of your body [and there are places like that in HZD], with the upper half obviously standing out and enemies are oblivious to it. Compare it to MGS3 for example, you had to lie in the grass to be practically invisible, but when the enemy approached the grass and was near Snake, you still could've been discovered.
It's a stupid design, especially apparent when the grass is only covering about half of your body [and there are places like that in HZD], with the upper half obviously standing out and enemies are oblivious to it. Compare it to MGS3 for example, you had to lie in the grass to be practically invisible, but when the enemy approached the grass and was near Snake, you still could've been discovered.
JayWood2010
Member
We need a Brandon Sanderson book turned into a game. Give it to CDPR xD
I do think games do a good job with stories, but arent done as well as books.
Trogdor1123
Member
I always assumed it was on purpose myself.
*shoots guy with arrow in the head*. *guy with arrow still in head* "Is anybody there?"
And on topic, what to me is worse is that they have the AI acknowledge stuff like noticing dead bodies. They notice them... and then they forget 2 seconds later and go back to their business. I mean if they are going to have the AI do nothing when it notices dead bodies, I'd prefer them just not notice the dead body.
That being said I don't mind the stupid AI, it makes for something relaxing to do when I want a change of pace (one reason I like open world/sandbox games is to be able to set my own pace). But, at the same time if they made the humans challenging in their own right (but not in a you just have to have quick reflexes way but in a you have to use tactics against them as well) I wouldn't complain either.
MaKTaiL
Member
I stood up on a big rock above some of the larger dinos shooting away at them. After smashing into the rock realizing they couldn't reach me, they ran out a distance and started hurling boulders at me.
Agreed.. also, the machines are given territory and they really don't like leaving their territory (to the point that if you put a trap beyond their territory it will be useless). I mean I found this out when trying to lure a sawtooth into a trap I put too far out of his territory. It did mean I could just shoot him and not get hurt though. But I could not lure him into the trap no matter how obvious and in front of him I tried to be. Anytime I ran past the trap he just wouldn't go there. Snapmaws are the worst about this (you can find a spot to just shoot at them and only have to dodge their distance attacks). Glinthawks become easy cause you can just shoot them at a distance, just gotta notice them before you get into their territory. I will say I'm starting to wonder though if it is my stealth suit making me too hard to see at a distance... but I swear I would go right under that sawtooth's nose and he still wouldn't follow me into the trap.
I really wish they didn't program the machines to stick in one spot but to at least keep following if you are close enough.
Never actually thought of it that way, but you're spot on. Thinking about it, it's an extremely common element of pretty much every great stealth game too (though they usually have a punishment for leaving dead bodies in the open, which HZD does not), do wish they had more fun with it like the MGS games do. The whistle is still op though, they really should cut it's range by like a 3rd, makes the A.I look incredibly dumb.
Sometimes it feels like the humans hit way harder than some of the dinos. The melee damage is ridiculous at times.
I dont think its the stealth suit, I used the melee resistance armor and I could pull off the same things. Some of the "leasing" on the machines is just too strict. There were times where I'd be fighting one and it would suddenly turn around and run back while I'm still unloading arrows into it.
WordsintheWater
Member
You're not gonna show anything different that anyone who's played the game doesn't know. It's also been discussed so many times in preview threads, OT, impressions threads, review threads. There's nothing in your original post or subsequent posts that bring anything new to light. You could probably find videos easily online about this flaw.
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