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[Warxard]

.

This is very vague; how is combat "cheap"? And are you referring to hyper-armor that enemies have? You know, the main issue with the game is balance. Also, consider how gameplay drastically changes when you play on the harder difficulties; the true part of DC starts when you beat the game on infinite and reach level 99 (where you start actual builds and specialize). The last time I played, Elf was the worst, Wizard and Sorceress are top tier, and the rest are good; they easily carry teams in ToM runs and against bosses. Elf was top tier and people extensively bitched about her DPS before she got nerfed.

Elf has a definite learning curve that's more steep than nthe other classes but at the same time I wouldn't call her 'bad' even after post patch. Yes, I was referring to Armor and the 'cheap' feel was referring to the lack of hitstop in attacks.

Enemies and bosses have different movesets on harder difficulties; the whole game changes at such difficulties. The challenge is in making great builds and strategies to deal with the enemies that fill the screen and learn the boss fights to chain ToM dungeons for as long as you can.

I like the build development!

.

 

[Ivan Amiibo]

I think the biggest issue with the combat of Dragon's Crown is that the combat feels incredibly cheap in encounters. The contributing factor to that 'cheap' feel would have to be the lack of hitstop or the look of the supposed hitstop that's in the game is nonexistent. At the most the enemy character turns red and vibrates a bit. Now most would consider "why would hitstop be needed in a game like this?" Consider that later in DC there are enemies that can take an additional hit without 'flinching' and, if you have a class like the Archer, can pretty much eat through your attacks for free. It's apparent even with the tank classes like the Fighter (who is my second favorite class next to the elf) and the Amazon.

Looking forward to the counterpoints/disucssion!

I've put in about 100+ hours with the Elf alone

Counterpoints:
--Melee causes hit stun
--the elemental spell causes mad hit stun and can look in a whole mob at once
--Arrows cause hit stun
--slides cause hit stun
--running attacks cause hit stun
--Charged arrows cause hit stun or hard knockdown

edit:
--a lot of the pick up weapons cause hit stun too


The elf's entire game is knockdowns and keep away.

lol how did you miss all of that

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

It honestly takes a while before the loot system starts to feel right, then I found it achieved what a loot system should, which is make you want to take on higher challenges for better gear. The combat itself I found pretty decent, but it's a brawler so it has certain qualities which can get tiresome after extended play. Mechanically I didn't notice some of the issues you describe. It's been a year or so since I've played though.

I loved the game, but I never played it solo, so that might have skewed my opinion higher.

 

[Karsticles]

I've put in about 100+ hours with the Elf alone

Counterpoints:
--Melee causes hit stun
--the elemental spell causes mad hit stun and can look in a whole mob at once
--Arrows cause hit stun
--slides cause hit stun
--running attacks cause hit stun
--Charged arrows cause hit stun or hard knockdown


lol how did you miss all of that

While also, apparently, hitting level 255.
On two characters.
Without touching the highest difficulty.

 

[Jonneh3003]

I love the art but I personally just don't find the game that fun.

 

[Warxard]

I've put in about 100+ hours with the Elf alone

Counterpoints:
--Melee causes hit stun
--the elemental spell causes mad hit stun and can look in a whole mob at once
--Arrows cause hit stun
--slides cause hit stun
--running attacks cause hit stun
--Charged arrows cause hit stun or hard knockdown


lol how did you miss all of that

Hitstop and hitstun are completely different things.

Hitstop: the BRIEF freeze frame of both characters when an attack either connects or is blocked.

Hitstun: when the enemy freezes for a couple of second after the attack.

Think of it like this: in SF when you hit an enemy with a medium or heavy attack, there's that brief stop in the enemy that can connect into another normal.

Hitstun would be like SF's focus attack.

 

[GRIMREEFZ]

I agree with this. while the art style was super duper good i did not care for much else. good ot

 

[Warxard]

While also, apparently, hitting level 255.
On two characters.
Without touching the highest difficulty.

yeah??? I didn't play Ultimate yet because I didn't see a need to. Labryinth of Chaos was enough for me lol.

It's easy to level in the game and, seeing as I commute a lot the Vita version is godsend for leveling thanks to cross save. I don't play much as of the past few months however.

 

[Weltall Zero]

Very well argumented post, and even though I love DC (200 hours and counting), most of its points are valid.
- I also miss hitstop a lot, especially on higher difficulties where elites no-sell pretty much all your attacks, and it would contribute to make your attacks feel meatier. On the other hand, in DC you're hitting enemies much more often and for more hits than in other brawlers, so unless that was addressed too, the game would turn into a slideshow.
- The issues with four players are less significant to me as I play solo 99% of the time (Vita during commutes). Which is not to say they are there and are important in general terms (it could be argued that's why I play solo most of the time).
- Depth (Z) speed is indeed very slow, which I'm assuming is a direct result of the game in general being more squished vertically (Y) than other brawlers (or, to be precise, the camera is lower and more paralel to the ground). This in turn seems to be done to allow for a more zoomed in camera without cutting the larger sprites' top. IMHO the latter is the worst design decision in the game and causes not only the aforementioned problem, but several of the other problems as well: chaos with more than a few characters onscreen (as they have to be more bunched together), harder to judge Z alignment with enemies, less space in both X and Z axes for more strategic positioning, etc.
- I'm fine with the thief, but searching for treasure with the cursor is really pointless, especially when it's everywhere and not in particularly logical locations. Unfortunately it's something you can't simply skip as it contributes to score which turns into exp.
- I have no issue with the town at all. I'm not sure if you know you can access each building immediately from a map/menu by pressing... Select, I think? Anyhow, I like how it gives you some space to experiment... and then screws up by placing an NPC who gets you jailed if you hit him.

Anyhow, I might seem to be bashing the game, but I still love it and it's on the top 3 of my favorite brawlers easily.

 

[Ivan Amiibo]

Hitstop and hitstun are completely different things.

Hitstop: the freeze frame of both characters when an attack either connects or is blocked.

Hitstun: when the enemy freezes for a couple of second after the attack.

edit: saw the edit, the gif stays .

 

[Fine Ham Abounds]

I think there's quite a bit of differing opinion on how desirable hitstop as you define it actually is. You could argue it's something which adds a weighty feel to contact, or that it's lazy and screws up pacing when what's really desirable is just the hitstun, but that attacks should have some differentiating indicator facilitating hit confirming.

Ah yeah, Labyrinth, that's what I was thinking of. That's the point when the loot system really started to work for me.

 

[SMattera]

Bought it for couch co-op.

Quit after about 20 minutes from having to deal with so many menus. Terrible design.

Castle Crashers blows it out of the water.

 

[Radical Edward]

.

This is very vague; how is combat "cheap"? And are you referring to hyper-armor that enemies have? You know, the main issue with the game is balance. Also, consider how gameplay drastically changes when you play on the harder difficulties; the true part of DC starts when you beat the game on infinite and reach level 99 (where you start actual builds and specialize). The last time I played, Elf was the worst, Wizard and Sorceress are top tier, and the rest are good; they easily carry teams in ToM runs and against bosses. Elf was top tier and people extensively bitched about her DPS before she got nerfed.



.

Enemies and bosses have different movesets on harder difficulties; the whole game changes at such difficulties. The challenge is in making great builds and strategies to deal with the enemies that fill the screen and learn the boss fights to chain ToM dungeons for as long as you can.

.

Side dodge to strafe faster; bunny-hop to move forward fast. You do realize that the Z-axis positioning determines whether you are going to get hit or not in most cases? Strafing is slower to balance that.

.

I disagree. It is a mechanically great brawler that has great build variety and end-game challenges to do. It is very fun and rewarding, and some classes require actual skills rather than systematically beating the game with builds (it can be argued that you can systematically cheese certain parts of the game even on higher difficulties with Wizard/sorceress).

I think that you barely scratched the surface of the game. Give it more time and learn how to play the characters properly. If you find it time consuming, uninteresting or too tedious to learn, then the game isn't for you.

My Man... great post and counter arguments. I love this game and pit a ton of hours into it. I got platinum and loved playing coop. You are very right that the game doesn't open up until harder difficulties. You really have to think about your attacks and much more skill is involved. I hope we get a sequel or a rerelease on ps4. I kept meaning to jump back online with endless dungeon but there are soooo many new games all the time and I'm trying to get rid of my ps3 backlog.

 

[Weltall Zero]

edit: saw the edit, the gif stays .

Care to explain the lazy dismissive macro? I was going to post something pretty much identical to his post (his original post that you quoted), which in itself should not be necessary in a gaming forum like GAF, where one would assume most people taking about hitstop and hitstun would at least know the difference.

To be precise, hitstop freezes both characters, being a purely aesthetic effect (technically, slightly disadvantageous as other enemies are unaffected, but animation speeds compensate for it); it's more or less necessary to convey the difference between hitting a solid target and hitting thin air. It's pretty much ubiquitous to the point that most people won't consciously note it, only its absence. One of the reasons MMO combat feels less meaty than action games is that due to several technical implications, most MMOs have no hitstop.

 

[eso76]

Well, you're wrong.

He's right.

Main problem for me is I have no idea what I'm doing a lot of the time.
Action onscreen is not readable and combat isn't fun. Maybe managing weapons and spells is the gust here, but the action is just not satisfying for a lack of a clear reaction/feedback.
Maybe Vita's relatively tiny screen isn't ideal and nothing else.
I really love the way it looks though, minus the ridiculous t&a.

 

[GuardianE]

Hitstop and hitstun are completely different things.

Hitstop: the BRIEF freeze frame of both characters when an attack either connects or is blocked.

Hitstun: when the enemy freezes for a couple of second after the attack.

Think of it like this: in SF when you hit an enemy with a medium or heavy attack, there's that brief stop in the enemy that can connect into another normal.

Hitstun would be like SF's focus attack.

That's not what hitstun and hitstop are. Hitstop is the actual pause during the connection of an attack, as you say, but it's not what allows combos. That's hitstun. Hitstop just gives Kinetic weight to attacks and allows hit confirmation, but it's visual not mechanical.

Hitstun is basically the recovery after being struck by an attack. How long before you can either attack, move or block.

 

[iconoclast]

DC needed an arcade mode with preset weapons, levels, abilities, stats, etc. Then it would've been pretty great.

 

[Gattsu25]

I think it's a very competently made game with great production values. I did find it very repetitive and didn't complete it, however.

 

[Producer]

DC needed an arcade mode with preset weapons, levels, abilities, stats, etc. Then it would've been pretty great.

Im surprised they didnt do this, considering how great the post launch support was.

 

[Warxard]

I do have to commend Vanillaware's post launch support. They really went above and beyond with it and I hope it's the same for Odin Sphere.

 

[Karsticles]

yeah??? I didn't play Ultimate yet because I didn't see a need to. Labryinth of Chaos was enough for me lol.

It's easy to level in the game and, seeing as I commute a lot the Vita version is godsend for leveling thanks to cross save. I don't play much as of the past few months however.

I will wait for those screen shots before believing you.

 

[Weltall Zero]

That's not what hitstun and hitstop are. Hitstop is the actual pause during the connection of an attack, as you say, but it's not what allows combos. That's hitstun. Hitstop just gives Kinetic weight to attacks and allows hit confirmation, but it's visual not mechanical.

Hitstun is basically the recovery after being struck by an attack. How long before you can either attack, move or block.

By hitstop->combos, I think he's talking about cancels; in many games, the frame window where you can input another attack to cancel it (think L>M>S cancel, like in MVC, Arc System Works games, etc.) often feels like it matches the hitstop (keyword being "feels"). Not the best worded example, but you get the point, I don't think he's talking about "natural" combos (which do rely on hitstun).

 

[Emperor Bohe]

I agree with OP. The gameplay was not satisfying at all. I'm also not a fan of the stat building RPG element. I'd rather play Streets of Rage or any of the Capcom beat em ups, I guess I just prefer arcade style beat em ups. The art in DC is gorgeous though.

 

[Weltall Zero]

I do have to commend Vanillaware's post launch support. They really went above and beyond with it and I hope it's the same for Odin Sphere.

What I don't get is why don't we have DC DLC yet (and at this point it seems unlikely to ever come), I would buy it eyes closed. Maybe they're waiting to release a PS4/Vita remaster with new content like Odin Sphere itself, if they do I hope it's cross buy, because buying it for a third and fourth time might be too much for my wallet.

 

[Warxard]

What I don't get is why don't we have DC DLC yet (and at this point it seems unlikely to ever come), I would buy it eyes closed. Maybe they're waiting to release a PS4/Vita remaster with new content like Odin Sphere itself, if they do I hope it's cross buy, because buying it for a third and fourth time might be too much for my wallet.

The dungeons (Chaos and Mirages), level cap and the additional difficulty seem to be good enough for me when I was playing the game adamantly. Maybe it's an issue with putting out the content seeing as everything is hand drawn.

Maybe in the future there'll be a DC+ of some sort. I mean if Odin Sphere can get a redo...

 

[Karsticles]

What I don't get is why don't we have DC DLC yet (and at this point it seems unlikely to ever come), I would buy it eyes closed. Maybe they're waiting to release a PS4/Vita remaster with new content like Odin Sphere itself, if they do I hope it's cross buy, because buying it for a third and fourth time might be too much for my wallet.

As long as characters transfer...

 

[DrROBschiz]

The dungeons (Chaos and Mirages), level cap and the additional difficulty seem to be good enough for me when I was playing the game adamantly. Maybe it's an issue with putting out the content seeing as everything is hand drawn.

Maybe in the future there'll be a DC+ of some sort. I mean if Odin Sphere can get a redo...

Yeah if any game would benefit from a content and asset expansion its dragons crown

 

[DICKS AHOY]

I've put in about 100+ hours with the Elf alone

Counterpoints:
--Melee causes hit stun
--the elemental spell causes mad hit stun and can look in a whole mob at once
--Arrows cause hit stun
--slides cause hit stun
--running attacks cause hit stun
--Charged arrows cause hit stun or hard knockdown

edit:
--a lot of the pick up weapons cause hit stun too


The elf's entire game is knockdowns and keep away.

lol how did you miss all of that

does anything not cause hit stun in this game

 

[dragonyeuw]

I didn't quite get the hype either. It's no doubt a beautiful game, but I never played it beyond my first 2-3 hour session. Maybe I haven't given it enough time, but it didn't grab me from what I played( ps3 version).

 

[Mister Wilhelm]

Excellent post OP, we could use more effort like this around here.

I agree with some of your points, but the one thing that REALLY bothered me about this game was the inventory and town system. Holy hell does that get old real fast. Having to walk around and navigate a bunch of menus to do the same necessary and unfun tasks over and over was too much.

 

[Devilgunman]

Agree with OP and I feel same to almost all Vanillaware games. They are so pretty but when I get to play it is just not that fun. It's not that I'm the fan of the genre. I can go back and play some beat'm up on SNES and has more fun than playing Dragon's Crown.

 

[Pyrrhus]

Vanillaware games always look and sound the part but they sacrifice playability and performance for style. I like Kamitani and have bought most of the Vanillaware titles that have come west but I don't think any of his brawlers touch the D&D games from the mid-90s or even King of Dragons.

The play control feels stiff because animation has priority over input and, because of the cost of the visual assets and the expectations regarding game length that modern audiences have, they're always bloated with XP grinding, crafting systems revolving around rare drops, and repetition of a small core of levels.

I buy Vanillaware stuff because it's got an artistic vision and it's unique and I appreciate the persistence and passion of Kamitani himself. But I can't say I've actually enjoyed the act of playing any Vanillaware games in their own right so far.

 

[Ivan Amiibo]

Care to explain the lazy dismissive macro? I was going to post something pretty much identical to his post (his original post that you quoted), which in itself should not be necessary in a gaming forum like GAF, where one would assume most people taking about hitstop and hitstun would at least know the difference.

To be precise, hitstop freezes both characters, being a purely aesthetic effect (technically, slightly disadvantageous as other enemies are unaffected, but animation speeds compensate for it); it's more or less necessary to convey the difference between hitting a solid target and hitting thin air. It's pretty much ubiquitous to the point that most people won't consciously note it, only its absence. One of the reasons MMO combat feels less meaty than action games is that due to several technical implications, most MMOs have no hitstop.

Actually, as someone who does know what they're talking about, if I were to complain like the OP about the game, I would just talk about it in terms of how a particular enemy in the game reacts to a particular attack because I've actually played the shit out of the game and know it well. I wouldn't state some vague generality about how all hit effects work in the game because each character has a very full move set, each move causes different hit-reaction effects depending on the enemy, and that probably varies with difficulty level too. So it would be fucking stupid to make a vague claims about how Dragon's Crown combat works.

the complaint comes down to the game not doing this one thing in the way the OP wants and that seems arbitrary in light of how many tools you have to destroy everything on screen with ease up until like Inferno difficulty when it starts getting really challenging.

 

[Azure Phoenix]

I also really didn't like the game, despite enjoying Odin Sphere and Muramasa a lot.

My biggest problem was that you can now move into and out of the background (I don't know the technical term for this) like Streets of Rage and such, but unless you were directly in line with the enemy your attacks wouldn't hit. I used a ranger character and it felt like I spent most of my time adjusting the character up and down to be perfectly in line with enemy, even compared to old Konami brawlers it felt restrictive. Couple that with how ridiculously easy it is to lose track of your character with how busy the screen gets at times and it was just frustrating to play. For me, nowadays, I use Castle Crashers as the standard for how new 80s/90s style brawlers should feel, and Dragon's Crown's movement just felt clunky in comparison.

Oh, and what on earth was up with the online mode? I played the game for a quite a while and never found how to actually play with anyone else.

 

[striferser]

I like the game enough to put 100+ hours and platinum it. I have fun with it using elf as my main. I agree with some of your complain. I still think DC is one of the best modern beat em up/ hack and slash. I wish there's nore game similar to it.

 

[BakedTanooki]

Best modern Beat Em Up ever.
Played more than 250 hours, enjoyed every second. Bought on Day 1 and would do again and again and again

Great controls / gameplay, crazy good visuals and art style, awesome soundtrack, super fun coop, enough content (+free update with New Dungeon and Level cap)

Man, it is a little masterpiece in my opinion.

 

[gelf]

I really like beat-em-ups but having started it recently and played a few hours its not really catching with me. I'm not sure I can articulate why though. I'll give it a little more chance to grab me but it's not looking good.

I probably prefer these games more arcadey. I also didn't find much enjoyment from Castle Crashers either.

 

[Tain]

This:

DC needed an arcade mode with preset weapons, levels, abilities, stats, etc. Then it would've been pretty great.

...is the main reason the game was weak for me.

The loot-oriented structure is just so dull compared to the traditional one.

 

[Messofanego]

Wait, someone illustrate what hitstop and hitstun are, sound like fighting game terms. A video?

 

[Lord British]

Compared to other games in the same genre?

Going back to the village, flipping through menus after each stage kind of got more boring than a straight sort of hour-long bashathon like most belt scrollers are. I didn't think it was a bad game at all, but I wasn't crazy about it.

 

[Nyoro SF]

Wait, someone illustrate what hitstop and hitstun are, sound like fighting game terms. A video?

A focus attack from SF4 is a good demonstration of both.

When you land a level 2 focus, the game "freezes" both characters for a bit to give a feel of a meaty strike. That's hitstop.

However after the attack is finished executing, the opponent hunches inward and crumples, which is hitstun with a really long duration.

 

[SAB CA]

Honestly, any weakness in DC is beaten by what it does RIGHT. Now this doesn't make it my favorite BEU ever: I think modern design holds it back in that regard. But it's very satisfying to play in it's own right, and it surmounts many of the concepts I had of the game before playing it.

Combat Gameplay:

I hate the "combat is not deep" commentary many gamers give recently. What DO you consider deep combat? For me, I consider 2 things to make a game "deep":

- Design Depth: It has a lot of options that allow me to play in a variety of ways, and these ways have some synergy between them, that keeps each feeling fresh, and viable.

- Control Depth: This isn't what you're thinking. I don't mean complicated motions, I mean meaningful control of the targets. Being able to manipulate how, where, and how long an enemy is thrown or rest is the most enjoyable building block to a BEU IMHO. This is why I love Grapples, enemy-collection abilities, safety / damage zones, and placable distractions. They're the kind of thing each player can just sap strategy from (such as using AOE's once one player has gathered the enemies, or attacking with back attacks after the tank has taunted) that don't depend on intimate knowledge of the games manual or FAQs... they just make sense through natural play.

DC offered a lot of this. Regardless of what a min/max player might tell you, much of the different skill tries felt viable, and as if they offered a different way to play the same characters. And each character on their own felt very unique, each having a little something no other class could excel in as well. The slow characters still had fast combos and juggles, the tanks still had some spell-like attacks, and a summoner could distribute damage differently by acting as a party-buffer. This could carry you through a lot of the game (though variations might fall apart at harder difficulties, though re-specs existed for this very reason.)

Movement:

I hate loose, overly-fast vertical movement, makes games feel cheaply made. Couldn't one use dodging to move "planes" faster anyway? Movement and the width of attacks to hit the perceived areas are 2 things I think BEUs share hand-in-hand, and I didn't have nearly as much issue with DC as I eventually did with Castle Crashers, or Scott Pilgrim. I loved dashing, I loved dodging, I loved dash attacks. I thought they were very moble, and loved the ability to attack out almost anything,.

- Visual Presentation:

It is somewhat oversaturated in Town / Map / VN-like speaking scenes... but this serves the art and artist very well. They obviously enjoy illustrating these interactions, and it comes through in how bold and strong the artwork is. I didn't need a town, or townsfolk.. but their existence gives me a fun free-space to mess around in, and admire the artworks of it all. I love the art gallery that comes with completing quest. What a large exercise in useless, gorgeous extravagance. I'd much rather see art like this as a reward for my quest, as opposed to texture and character artist wasting time on hugely open worlds that have no interaction or fun to them in certain areas.

- Enemy Attack Response:

Streets of Rage probably will always be my favorite; the "so strong a blow, they're shaking at the knees!" hit reactions are great, and the opening they give for continued combos feels natural. But this doesn't mean every game has to play this way. I don't mind the blinking no-sell from pelting attacks, stagger and launcher from strong attacks, etc. With the scale of battles in the game, I think it makes everything coherent. I hate when games offer me enemies that bow to EVERYTHING with the grunts, and then take ALL of that away on boss encounters (this is basically how old Konami BEU's worked.) NO, no, NO. The very reason I want crowd-control is so I can use them on enemies I NEED them on. I WANT to stop the boss's trump-card before he launches it. I want to poison him as a sneaky way around his resistant armor. If he's a speed demon, I want slow and enfeebles to work on him. I could even use grapples and throws on boss class enemies! SATISFACTION!

- Game Length:

Yeah, I'm not really a fan of "long for the sake of long" in most games. Especialllt BEU's. If you start needing to repeat ideas, you're doing it wrong. At LEAST don't repeat them in the same playthrough / route. Remix them in an honest-to-goodness unique route, with special stories, NPCs, and all.

DC is kind of good about this, with it's alternate paths through stages. The stages feel like legit branches to separate adventures, and that's great.

But the backtracking through each stage at one point is kind of... erugh. I could have done without that, but I accept it for Vanillaware being able to appropriately milk it's art for it's actual value. I'd personally have preferred taking out that portion, and instead having something like a remix dungeon lane of stages to play through, rather than the whole original stages in a very similar style.

- Difficulty in readability:

This... doesn't really bother me much. It happened some times, sure, but I don't ever find it a strong enough deterrent to how I'm playing. Why is it that so many gamers now have a problem tracing action due to screen chaos? This comes up with Killer Instinct 2k13 too. I like feeling overwhelmed, but at the same time, I understand the assistance the games give me to see through the complexity. In DC, the cursors that float over characters helped a lot. In KI, the way particles clash with the characters (thereby minimalizing the obstruction of characters, by clashing with them, rather than splashing over them) helps place some order within the chaos.

DC's artwork; the fact is has so much flesh amongst iron and steel, all with different texture and movement to it, helps cut down on the feeling of getting visually lost. It does it pretty well for a game with such a lavish layer of design detail. This stuff was so much easier when eacjh player could have a mono-chromatic color them, against minimal color and detail backgrounds, but that's not what we want in this world of pixel-counting and demands for high resolution, is it?

- The Vanillaware curse: Mechanics for Mechanic's sake:

I think this game might be one of these best at this (though there are quite a few here and there I haven't fully played.) Basically, the mechanics let a person get a "Party" style experience, even while playing along. Maybe the AI becomes little more than cannon fodder after a certain point... but so what? I wants a meat shield, I gots a meat shield. Same for glass cannons. I would have been find without these systems, but I actually liked how they were integrated. I didn't find looting or Tiki intrusive or distracting; I could play the game in a way that indulged them if I felt like, or just ran though and enjoyed combat if I wished.

I liked where it ended up MUCH better than Odin Sphere, where it's need to craft progression-based items and such felt to push against the gameplay. It felt about as nice as Muramasa's DLCs did, in term of system depth not overstaying their welcome, and existing just enough to have fun with what was presented.

--What did I find lacking?--

I wish the game had DLC similar to Vita's Muramasa. That stuff was all so meaningfully done. I liked a lot of it better than the game, because the pacing and variety of scenery seemed more fit to what I want out of side-quest. In a way, Muramasa's DLCs show the perfect balance of art and gameplay that Vanillaware strives for in most of their games.

I wish they'd remixed the content into straight stage-style arcade playlist. I'd love to see our large cast of "actors" fit into a wide myriad of tales. SO MUCH ART TO USE, this would have been great. Especially if they did sneaky things like re-create the D&D arcade storylines, or rift on other games (Guardian Heroes? Streets of Rage?)

Vanillaware character content would have been great. I'd have loved to have seen everyone get the DC style attempt.

Basically, I think the base game did a good job at proving what a Brawler could be at full retail price. They are absolutely a genre that can have an entry made that justifies a full game price tag. But there are other ways to go about providing that value that the genre needs to look at too, because the omission of such ideas is very weird now-a-days, when online shooters (to me, a much more repetitive genre than BEUs) and such have shown how much remixing and mutating the same content can make a game have long-stretching legs.

 

[ys45]

One of my favorite beat em up on SNES is King of Dragons and this game is like an evolved version of this , and if IIRC someone who worked on King on Dragons also worked on this one .

I like the mix between old school and modern design like skills tree, online multiplayer and the good old school brawler style of game play


Anyway, great game and I hope it won't be the last like this .

 

[ChanMan]

DC needed an arcade mode with preset weapons, levels, abilities, stats, etc. Then it would've been pretty great.

Now this is actually is something that was a missed opportunity for the game. Especially since it could have been done without breaking the design of the game since you don't collect loot until after you return to town.

 

[SAB CA]

One of my favorite beat em up on SNES is King of Dragons and this game is like an evolved version of this , and if IIRC someone who worked on King on Dragons also worked on this one .

I like the mix between old school and modern design like skills tree, online multiplayer and the good old school brawler style of game play


Anyway, great game and I hope it won't be the last like this .

King of Dragons and the Capcom D&D Games both had George Kamitani at work on them. So much of what was started in KoD was evolved in D&D, and then further in Dragon's Crown.

And if you can, play King of Dragon's arcade version, too. It's on one of the Capcom Classic Collections for PSP / PS2 / Xbox. The SNES one is a pretty solid conversion, but the size and graphics of the arcade version are a great truer version of that vision.

 

[Enigmatic Rainbow]

DC needed an arcade mode with preset weapons, levels, abilities, stats, etc. Then it would've been pretty great.

I agree with this. Tried playing the game with friends locally, and we didn't even last an hour. It got old having to wait for every person to manage their inventory and build.

 

[Mr. Nice_Guy]

I really enjoyed it. Beat 'me ups in general are pretty "repetitive" for me and I thought DC was among the least repetitive. Combat could have felt better but I think it felt way better than something like Scott Pilgrim. It flowed well, (I played an Amazon and Sorceress), never felt like I was having to chase enemies who flew too far away, since movement was fast.

Also the art. I can't get enough of that art.

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Really enjoyed your write up. You really seem to know your BEU's, so it's cool to see someone talk about it in depth.

 

[Weltall Zero]

The dungeons (Chaos and Mirages), level cap and the additional difficulty seem to be good enough for me when I was playing the game adamantly. Maybe it's an issue with putting out the content seeing as everything is hand drawn.

Maybe in the future there'll be a DC+ of some sort. I mean if Odin Sphere can get a redo...

Thing is that Dragon's Crown is the kind of game that would benefit a ton from extra content (stages/enemies/bosses/perhaps even classes), seeing as, true to VanillaWare standards, it doesn't have a lot of them to begin with.

As long as characters transfer...

Hahah, having invested 200+ hours, I can echo the sentiment.

Actually, as someone who does know what they're talking about, if I were to complain like the OP about the game, I would just talk about it in terms of how a particular enemy in the game reacts to a particular attack because I've actually played the shit out of the game and know it well. I wouldn't state some vague generality about how all hit effects work in the game because each character has a very full move set, each move causes different hit-reaction effects depending on the enemy, and that probably varies with difficulty level too. So it would be fucking stupid to make a vague claims about how Dragon's Crown combat works.

the complaint comes down to the game not doing this one thing in the way the OP wants and that seems arbitrary in light of how many tools you have to destroy everything on screen with ease up until like Inferno difficulty when it starts getting really challenging.

Nice deflect, but that's neither here nor there: the OP very precisely used the term hitstop, which has a precise, different definition than hitstun, so there's no "vagueness". Would you consider doing the mature thing and admitting you confused the two rather than keep the passive agressive petulant act? Seriously, nobody would give a fuck to the mistake if you weren't so adamant of stubbornly trying to deny it.

Edit: Wait, on second re-read, it seems you still don't understand the difference and keep talking about hitstun. Wow.

 

[GuardianE]

By hitstop->combos, I think he's talking about cancels; in many games, the frame window where you can input another attack to cancel it (think L>M>S cancel, like in MVC, Arc System Works games, etc.) often feels like it matches the hitstop (keyword being "feels"). Not the best worded example, but you get the point, I don't think he's talking about "natural" combos (which do rely on hitstun).

But the hitstop isn't the mechanism by which the combo happens. Even in the example of gattlings with set cancel points, what guarantees the next hit connecting is the hitstun. This is especially evident when a gattlings simply doesn't connect because of a delay. You got the cancel, but there wasn't enough hitstun.

I mean, I agree that I think the OP is referring to hitstop. I just had an issue with his classification.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

I had a problms with DCs early stretch and all of the telltorials and low options in combat. After the a/b lines opened up the game got much much better and complete.

The thing about combat is that it ISNT a pure beatem up; you have knockbacks knockdowns juggles and sweet sweet throws for hitstun. Go Mahvel on their asses with buddies!