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"I Need a New PC!" 2016 Plus Ultra! HBM2, VR, 144Hz, and 4K for all!

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D

Darknight

Member
Anybody have a Corsair H110i GTX?

I recently put together a build and installed Corsair link. I've been running default settings/balanced mode and fans seems audible but not loud.

I installed my motherboards bluetooth and when rebooting, the fans of the cooler so damn loud like a jet engine lol. Also the link on the block changed from white to green.

So to quiet the fans, I turned it to "Quiet mode" profile and cooler fans are running about 1000-1100 rpms with CPU around 25C standy/internet use.

Maybe from the initial point of installing it, the drivers for the CPU cooler didnt install properly until now? I mean why would the CPU light remain white and then turn green? Its like something finally clicked in the hardware?

I guess I should leave it on Quiet mode but its weird its been running "balanced mode" for a few days and fans sounded like they do in quiet mode.
 
S

Slayven

Member
iamblades said:
The 460 I presume?

You will be fine assuming your PSU has a 6 pin PCI-E power connector, which if your current card is the 7770, it does. If it's a lower tier 7700, it probably still does, but I can't tell from the information you've given.

There are 460s that are under 75 W TDP, so they don't require PCI-E power as well. Those will work 100%.
Click to expand...
Yeah
Nostremitus said:
What is your power supply? and by budget, are we talking RX 480/470 or RX 460?
Click to expand...

Corsair CX600 600 watt
 
S

Systolique

Member
iamblades said:
550 W is way more than you would need for that hardware certainly. I'd probably see if I could get a 400-450W semi modular PSU instead, just to make cable management a bit neater.

There are way better case options than that Zalman case in that price range also. I'd look at NZXT S340, Corsair R200, Fractal Design Define S, Deepcool Dukase, etc. NZXT source 210 if you must go ultra budget.

Like I said, if the 460 is more than 10-20 cheaper, get it every time. the 1050 is definitely not a great value if its a 35 euro premium.
Click to expand...

Well thanks a lot for your help, I just ordered the components and it'll be my first time building a PC !
 
I

iamblades

Member
ParityBit said:
What do you guys install from the MSI disc that comes with the video cards (1070)?
Click to expand...

I never install anything from any disc that comes with just about any hardware. it's all months out of date by the time the box makes it to retail.

Go to MSI's website and download MSI afterburner. Grab Kombustor while you are there if you want to use that for testing the stability of your overclocks, I mostly just use 3dmark and unigine for that.

Go to Nvidia's website and download the latest WHQL drivers straight from them.
 
P

ParityBit

Member
iamblades said:
I never install anything from any disc that comes with just about any hardware. it's all months out of date by the time the box makes it to retail.

Go to MSI's website and download MSI afterburner. Grab Kombustor while you are there if you want to use that for testing the stability of your overclocks, I mostly just use 3dmark and unigine for that.

Go to Nvidia's website and download the latest WHQL drivers straight from them.
Click to expand...

Wo that Afterburner has a lot of bells and whistles. I can not find Kombustor.
 
I

iamblades

Member
K

knitoe

Member
Darknight said:
Anybody have a Corsair H110i GTX?

I recently put together a build and installed Corsair link. I've been running default settings/balanced mode and fans seems audible but not loud.

I installed my motherboards bluetooth and when rebooting, the fans of the cooler so damn loud like a jet engine lol. Also the link on the block changed from white to green.

So to quiet the fans, I turned it to "Quiet mode" profile and cooler fans are running about 1000-1100 rpms with CPU around 25C standy/internet use.

Maybe from the initial point of installing it, the drivers for the CPU cooler didnt install properly until now? I mean why would the CPU light remain white and then turn green? Its like something finally clicked in the hardware?

I guess I should leave it on Quiet mode but its weird its been running "balanced mode" for a few days and fans sounded like they do in quiet mode.
Click to expand...

My 110i GTX recently broke. Temps were idling in the 40-50C and sometimes I was getting high temps errors, led set to turn red, when booting up and causing Windows startup errors. Guessing the pump broke and/or clog in the CPU block. Had it only for about a year. Planning to switch to a NZXT Kraken X62 when it gets release.

As for your issue, the MB tends to rev up the fan on boot up to test which would make it loud for short time. My MB does the same for the air cooler I have currently using. To make it more quiet, you can lower the fan profile in the bios and I recommend creating / running a custom fan profile in the Corsair link software. Also, in the software, you can see why the led are changing to green / white. Most likely a temp threshold.
 
B

bakedcrisps

Member
I currently have an R9 390 and a 1080p/60hz monitor. If I were to upgrade to a GTX 1070, would I need to also upgrade my monitor to a better resolution/refresh rate to notice the difference?
 
H

Hazardous Metal

Member
Would anyone know why after hours of use sometimes my GPU will "cap" performance? What I mean is that my GPU utilization doesn't go higher than 50% and I start getting trash performance in games. My core clock and memory clock goes way down and I have to restart to make the issue go away. GPU is 980ti, btw. On newest drivers.
 
O

opticalmace

Member
Hazardous Metal said:
Would anyone know why after hours of use sometimes my GPU will "cap" performance? What I mean is that my GPU utilization doesn't go higher than 50% and I start getting trash performance in games. My core clock and memory clock goes way down and I have to restart to make the issue go away. GPU is 980ti, btw. On newest drivers.
Click to expand...

What are the temps doing when this happens?
 
H

Hazardous Metal

Member
opticalmace said:
What are the temps doing when this happens?
Click to expand...

Lower than normal. 36c after playing a quick match of Titanfall 2 (30c is my idle temp usually, 60-69c is my load temp). It's like the majority of the GPU's power isn't being used. Keep in mind that when I restart it'll be fine and then randomly happen at some point again after gaming for an arbitrary amount of hours.
 
O

opticalmace

Member
Hazardous Metal said:
Lower than normal. 36c after playing a quick match of Titanfall 2 (30c is my idle temp usually, 60-69c is my load temp). It's like the majority of the GPU's power isn't being used. Keep in mind that when I restart it'll be fine and then randomly happen at some point again after gaming for an arbitrary amount of hours.
Click to expand...

Before it downclocks, what are the temps? Could be a bug, or maybe it's overheating a bit first.

I would suggest rolling back to an earlier driver and see if it goes away. Also google if you haven't, I think there has been some downclocking bug lately with nvidia cards, though I haven't looked into it. Might have seen an article headline somewhere.
 
H

Hazardous Metal

Member
opticalmace said:
Before it downclocks, what are the temps? Could be a bug, or maybe it's overheating a bit first.

I would suggest rolling back to an earlier driver and see if it goes away. Also google if you haven't, I think there has been some downclocking bug lately with nvidia cards, though I haven't looked into it. Might have seen an article headline somewhere.
Click to expand...

This has been happening on and off with multiple driver releases since I built my computer back in May. Restarting takes like thirty seconds so it's not a huge deal but I'm just concerned that it might be a symptom of a larger issue.

I wasn't able to record temperatures before the issue happens but my GPU never goes above 75c which is supposedly more than okay for a 980ti.
 
M

Megabat

Member
bakedcrisps said:
I currently have an R9 390 and a 1080p/60hz monitor. If I were to upgrade to a GTX 1070, would I need to also upgrade my monitor to a better resolution/refresh rate to notice the difference?
Click to expand...

Yes. You would have to go out of your way to use the extra speed. Namely, downsampling from 1440p or 4K. The 1070 will get you flawless 60 frames per second playback at 1440p and adequate frame rates at 4K. Depending on your CPU (and, of course, the game/engine), 120Hz+ is attainable as well.

Really, the Radeon 390 is already limited by a 1080p monitor. That 8GB video memory is nowhere close to full. I'd recommend buying your next monitor before thinking about a new graphics card.

An opinion: 1440p/60Hz is over for pure gaming purposes. 144Hz monitors for $200-250 and 4K for $250-400 are the way to go.

Edit: Also, I have seen 144Hz FreeSync monitors for ~$200, and your GPU is FreeSync-compatible.
 
M

Megabat

Member
mingoguaya said:
Im looking for a 2.5" SSD for my laptop and my budget is no more than $60... am I out of luck?
Click to expand...

https://www.amazon.com/ADATA-Premier-SP550-240GB-ASP550SS3-240GM-C/dp/B013J7Q338/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1480901731&sr=8-1&keywords=adata+sp550

Ha, ninety-nine cents over...

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01H5KW8VG?tag=bom_tomshardware-20&ascsubtag=site:thus%7Ctid:148090182239998

And a dollar more than that

Both are well-reviewed, and should have read performance roughly equivalent to (and write performance close enough to) the Samsung 850 EVO.
 
Z

z3phon

Member
Darknight said:
Anybody have a Corsair H110i GTX?

I recently put together a build and installed Corsair link. I've been running default settings/balanced mode and fans seems audible but not loud.

I installed my motherboards bluetooth and when rebooting, the fans of the cooler so damn loud like a jet engine lol. Also the link on the block changed from white to green.

So to quiet the fans, I turned it to "Quiet mode" profile and cooler fans are running about 1000-1100 rpms with CPU around 25C standy/internet use.

Maybe from the initial point of installing it, the drivers for the CPU cooler didnt install properly until now? I mean why would the CPU light remain white and then turn green? Its like something finally clicked in the hardware?

I guess I should leave it on Quiet mode but its weird its been running "balanced mode" for a few days and fans sounded like they do in quiet mode.
Click to expand...
My fans at boot up go up to 100% too, I think that's normal during boot up. If you haven't changed the stock fans that come with the H110i i'd recommend that. I got Noctua fans and even at 100% it's no where as loud as the stock Cosair ones.
As for the light, it could simply have been a issue with the Corsair software. I've had instances where I've set some other color but after reboot my lights switch back to white for no reason.
 
M

Megabat

Member
Celcius said:
Some of the best looking RAM I've ever seen: http://www.corsair.com/en-us/domina...z-c14-memory-kit-blackout-cmd32gx4m2c3200c14m
Corsair Dominator Platinum Special Edition, available in blackout or chrome, limited edition 500 of each will be made, 32GB 3200mhz overclockable to 3600mhz.
$300 though. Plus I use a Noctua NH-D14 so it would interfere with my cooler. But still, dat look!

83B73DD36E224E249B9C57E84278EC02.ashx
Click to expand...

D14 owners are too cool for fancy RAM modules.

But seriously: that thing is huge. It covers everything (RAM slots, M.2...) - yet still allows space for maintenance.
 
M

Megabat

Member
Shifty Capone1 said:
Alright PCGaf, quick question.

Are their any PC Monitors that support HDR10? I have an x34, but would like another monitor to use while playing console exclusives. If I am going to buy another one I figure I need HDR10. Are their any current ones? Is waiting the best thing to do? Thanks!
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'd wait - or just get an HDR-compatible TV. This article on RPS should be illuminating: https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/09/22/hdr-gaming-and-the-pc-its-complicated/
 
M

Megabat

Member
Nostremitus said:
I agree. I wouldn't either, but there are people who consider them budget cards since they aren't 1070 or 1080 level cards. So, it's always worth asking.
Click to expand...

I see this all the time. The need to stratify like that shows you've spent more money than you have time educating yourself.
 
I

iamblades

Member
Megabat said:
D14 owners are too cool for fancy RAM modules.

But seriously: that thing is huge. It covers everything (RAM slots, M.2...) - yet still allows space for maintenance.
Click to expand...

Yeah I had to mutilate my heat spreader on the stick in slot 1 to get it to fit in my 3770k build, lol.
 
I

iamblades

Member
Megabat said:
Yes. You would have to go out of your way to use the extra speed. Namely, downsampling from 1440p or 4K. The 1070 will get you flawless 60 frames per second playback at 1440p and adequate frame rates at 4K. Depending on your CPU (and, of course, the game/engine), 120Hz+ is attainable as well.

Really, the Radeon 390 is already limited by a 1080p monitor. That 8GB video memory is nowhere close to full. I'd recommend buying your next monitor before thinking about a new graphics card.

An opinion: 1440p/60Hz is over for pure gaming purposes. 144Hz monitors for $200-250 and 4K for $250-400 are the way to go.

Edit: Also, I have seen 144Hz FreeSync monitors for ~$200, and your GPU is FreeSync-compatible.
Click to expand...

I picked up some AOC 144 hz freesync monitors for like $120 for christmas gifts this year. only 22", but still.
 
M

microdot

Member
It's a bit frustrating that I have all my parts ready but I'm still waiting on my monitor from Dell. The only thing that kind of freaks me out is plugging the case (usb, power on, hd audio) inputs into the mobo.
 
M

Megabat

Member
Nostremitus said:
I think you missed the part of the sentence you quoted where I said that I did not share that view.
Click to expand...

Oh, whoa. I meant to agree. I wasn't taking your post and going "hey, look at this guy." My post was intended to be a direct response. I was trying - awkwardly, apparently - to be conversational. My apologies.
 
R

Raw64life

Member
Raw64life said:
Finally put together my new build.

Some minor issues while building it (this was only my 3rd time building a PC ever) but everything turned out ok. Freaked out when I first turned it on as it started for 5 seconds and then shut down, but it just turned out that my RAM wasn't pushed in all the way.

Also, I had an SSD and an HDD in there, and for whatever reason Windows turned my 4TB HDD into a 500MB partition so I ended up having to unplug the HDD and reinstalling. Then after that my 4TB was still chopped up and I don't even remember exactly what I fiddled with to get it to work but it's all good now.

Everything runs great so far. And 1440p G-sync is no fucking joke. What an improvement.
Click to expand...

I spoke too soon. Less than 24 hours after building my new PC, my 4TB Seagate has bit the dust. Shows up in disk management as failing. I already had some stuff on there that I hadn't backed up yet as I figured the damn thing would last at least a day, so I'm a little miffed. Although I guess I'm lucky as this is my 3rd build and 7th-8th hard drive and this is the first failure I've had to deal with.

Anything I can do to attempt to salvage it or is it already too late?
 
N

Nostremitus

Member
Megabat said:
Oh, whoa. I meant to agree. I wasn't taking your post and going "hey, look at this guy." My post was intended to be a direct response. I was trying - awkwardly, apparently - to be conversational. My apologies.
Click to expand...

It's all good. the use of "you've" and "you" made it look like you were directly addressing me with regard to the behavior.

I see now that you were using them in a general sense, not directly to me.

But yes, there are people who think that way, so I tend to err on the side of caution and ask.
 
BIGWORM

BIGWORM

Member
I think my Asus Z97-E/USB 3.1 is taking a dump on me. It mainly has to do with the Razer Blackwidow keyboard I just purchased. The keyboard itself keeps randomly disconnecting/reconnecting during gaming. I tried to single out the keyboard itself of course, so I purchased a low end Logitech keyboard. While gaming with this keyboard, the keys would randomly become stuck, strafing when I wasn't even touching it. I've swapped USB ports, defaulted my OC setting, upgraded my BIOS, cleaned out my computer, reinstalled my Win10 OS even, and still, the problem persists.

All of my other USB components, including my mouse, or unaffected with this problem. Am I right to think my motherboard is taking a dump? Could even my PSU be suspect in this, with what peripherals I have connected? Using a Thermaltake 600W I got a couple of years ago. I have a Vive connected (though this problem persists with the Vive not being on/standby mode), a Blue Snowball mic, and the mouse itself, a Logitech G502 Proteus. I just barely purchased this in Jan/Feb sometime. I've already contacted ASUS, with no response as of yet, and I'm afraid they'd have me send back the motherboard first instead of a possible cross ship setup. I've come from a GB board, hoping ASUS would be better quality, but it doesn't seem as such.

I'm out of ideas at this point, and this is turning me off to gaming. The keyboard even disconnected/reconnected 3 times while typing. This is annoying as hell. Any ideas? =/
 
J

Joco

Member
iamblades said:
Odd issue. It shouldn't be a hardware issue given what you've listed(though it's worth loading up HWmonitor or something and verifying your voltages are good coming from the PSU, just in case.

Background programs like f.lux have been known to cause similar issues, but considering you mentioned a clean reinstall, I don't think that's the issue.

Last option:

Open Nvidia control panel, go to manage 3d settings. Find the 'maximum prerendered frames' option and set it to 1.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the suggestion. No luck, unfortunately.

LilJoka said:
Id like to get an MSI Afberburner trace of this.
In MSI AB select to record GPU core freq, GPU mem freq, CPU freq, FPS, Frametimes, GPU temp, CPU temp, CPU usage. Log at 100ms interval. Enable log to file.

Record some footage where the issue occurs and share the log file here.

Drop the RAM Freq to stock 2133Mhz - disable XMP. Memtest will show dead ram, not incorrectly configured ram.

I do not suspect the PSU/CPU/Mobo.

Video looks like some weird vsync bug.

Do you have weird behavior in other games?
Click to expand...

Link to MSI Afterburner Logs

I didn't know the best format to put the log file in so I just put it into a video. Hopefully that's alright. If not, I can go back and screenshot it at a later time. For gameplay I just did the exact same thing as the video I posted before, started a game of League of Legends and moved my character around a bit. I also played Battlerite to see if I would notice the issue and I still did. Doesn't seem specific to LoL.
 
S

samar11

Member
Any word on when we can expect the 1080ti ?
I did a google and there are rumours of a jan reveal/release apparently.
Cheers
 
S

schandmann

Member
So guys, I just bought a 6GB GTX 1060 and I'm looking at G-Sync monitors.

I'd think the card would struggle at 1440p, so would a 1080p G-Sync display make sense for me? I love the idea of not having to worry about frame drops/stutter as much.
 
O

opticalmace

Member
schandmann said:
So guys, I just bought a 6GB GTX 1060 and I'm looking at G-Sync monitors.

I'd think the card would struggle at 1440p, so would a 1080p G-Sync display make sense for me? I love the idea of not having to worry about frame drops/stutter as much.
Click to expand...

G-sync is really fantastic. I think either 1080p or 1440p would be fine, as long as you're willing to lower settings where appropriate for the latter. It also depends a lot on which specific games you want to play, so I would suggest checking benchmarks of exactly the titles you're interested in.

I have a 1070 and a 1440p 144Hz monitor and it is plenty fast for my needs (usually play around 90-100fps+, game dependent). The 1060 is maybe 70% as fast as the 1070 so it's no slouch, particularly if you're going to use a 60 hz display.
 
S

schandmann

Member
opticalmace said:
G-sync is really fantastic. I think either 1080p or 1440p would be fine, as long as you're willing to lower settings where appropriate for the latter. It also depends a lot on which specific games you want to play, so I would suggest checking benchmarks of exactly the titles you're interested in.

I have a 1070 and a 1440p 144Hz monitor and it is plenty fast for my needs (usually play around 90-100fps+, game dependent). The 1060 is maybe 70% as fast as the 1070 so it's no slouch, particularly if you're going to use a 60 hz display.
Click to expand...
Going for 1440p would probably tempt me to upgrade within this GPU generation, which is something I'd really like to avoid. Max bells/whistles at 1080p looks good enough for me.

This is a monitor I plan on using for a few years, upgrading to Nvidias newest upper mid-tier card every two years or so. It's a big investment as is.
 
Bloodember

Bloodember

Member
BIGWORM said:
I think my Asus Z97-E/USB 3.1 is taking a dump on me. It mainly has to do with the Razer Blackwidow keyboard I just purchased. The keyboard itself keeps randomly disconnecting/reconnecting during gaming. I tried to single out the keyboard itself of course, so I purchased a low end Logitech keyboard. While gaming with this keyboard, the keys would randomly become stuck, strafing when I wasn't even touching it. I've swapped USB ports, defaulted my OC setting, upgraded my BIOS, cleaned out my computer, reinstalled my Win10 OS even, and still, the problem persists.

All of my other USB components, including my mouse, or unaffected with this problem. Am I right to think my motherboard is taking a dump? Could even my PSU be suspect in this, with what peripherals I have connected? Using a Thermaltake 600W I got a couple of years ago. I have a Vive connected (though this problem persists with the Vive not being on/standby mode), a Blue Snowball mic, and the mouse itself, a Logitech G502 Proteus. I just barely purchased this in Jan/Feb sometime. I've already contacted ASUS, with no response as of yet, and I'm afraid they'd have me send back the motherboard first instead of a possible cross ship setup. I've come from a GB board, hoping ASUS would be better quality, but it doesn't seem as such.

I'm out of ideas at this point, and this is turning me off to gaming. The keyboard even disconnected/reconnected 3 times while typing. This is annoying as hell. Any ideas? =/
Click to expand...
Have you tried using a different mouse? It could be the culprit. What software do you have running? Also unplug all other USB devices and see if it persists, including the mouse, use a different one.
 
L

LilJoka

Member
Joco said:
Thanks for the suggestion. No luck, unfortunately.



Link to MSI Afterburner Logs

I didn't know the best format to put the log file in so I just put it into a video. Hopefully that's alright. If not, I can go back and screenshot it at a later time. For gameplay I just did the exact same thing as the video I posted before, started a game of League of Legends and moved my character around a bit. I also played Battlerite to see if I would notice the issue and I still did. Doesn't seem specific to LoL.
Click to expand...

Upload the log file to Dropbox or alternative and share the link.
 
Chipmungus

Chipmungus

Neo Member
BIGWORM said:
I think my Asus Z97-E/USB 3.1 is taking a dump on me. <snip>
Click to expand...

Have you tried playing with your xHCI settings in the BIOS, under USB Configuration?

I was having the same issue with a Steelseries Apex M800 on my Asus X99 Sabertooth, for months and months. I force-enabled Intel xHCI support (it was on Auto) and disabled xHCI hand-off, iirc. It's been ok for the past week, whereas it used to disconnect up to 10 times a day.
 
Stevey

Stevey

Member
I'm not impressed with the sound quality from my sound card or my mobo.
This is probably a dumb question but can I run a HDMI from my GTX1080 to my receiver and get 7.1 sound whilst still using DVI to my monitor for the picture?
 
S

SandTorso

Member
Stevey said:
I'm not impressed with the sound quality from my sound card or my mobo.
This is probably a dumb question but can I run a HDMI from my GTX1080 to my receiver and get 7.1 sound whilst still using DVI to my monitor for the picture?
Click to expand...

I believe so. You might have to set up the HDMI out as a second monitor or something though (I am uncertain of that however). Should be able to work.
 
T

the_milkybar_kid

Member
Final specs:

Intel Core i7-6700K 4.0GHz Quad-Core Processor
be quiet! Shadow Rock 2 51.4 CFM Rifle Bearing CPU Cooler
Asus Z170-A ATX LGA1151 Motherboard
Corsair Vengeance LPX 32GB (2 x 16GB) DDR4-3000 Memory
Crucial MX300 525GB 2.5" Solid State Drive
Seagate Barracuda 3TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive
Seagate Expansion 2TB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive
MSI GeForce GTX 1070 8GB Video Card
Fractal Design Define R5 w/Window (Black) ATX Mid Tower Case
EVGA SuperNOVA G2 650W 80+ Gold Certified Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply
Asus BC-12D2HT Blu-Ray/DVD/CD Writer
Corsair Air Series White 2 pack 52.2 CFM 120mm Fan
Fractal D&#8203;esign Sile&#8203;nt Series &#8203;R3 140mm C&#8203;ase Fan £12.37
Asus ROG SWIFT PG278Q 27.0" 2560x1440 144Hz Monitor
DBPower RG&#8203;B Keyboard
Jelly Comb 4000 DPI Professional USB Wired Gaming Mouse
Logitech G930 7.1 Channel Headset
Steelseries Artic 7 Headset
Logitech Z200 0W 2ch Speakers


ZKFDMJm.jpg


zusrODW.jpg


f3UlWMg.jpg


7glJmc2.jpg


BfSQmLu.jpg


TWC2arL.jpg


e8MvKzd.jpg
Click to expand...
 
L

levious

That throwing stick stunt of yours has boomeranged on us.
Stevey said:
I'm not impressed with the sound quality from my sound card or my mobo.
This is probably a dumb question but can I run a HDMI from my GTX1080 to my receiver and get 7.1 sound whilst still using DVI to my monitor for the picture?
Click to expand...

SandTorso said:
I believe so. You might have to set up the HDMI out as a second monitor or something though (I am uncertain of that however). Should be able to work.
Click to expand...


Yes, setup as a dual monitor setup, duplicate the displays so that you don't lose your mouse pointer off screen. Just make sure your main display is the monitor and not the receiver, otherwise it might revert the resolution to something lower than you want, depending on the receiver I guess.
 
T

th3dude

Member
Anyone know of a cheap and small ATX cases?

I want to use some spare parts I have (including an ATX board) to build a new PC for my parents. The case they have now is a mATX, so my board won't fit.

I don't want anything too big since they are used to the small case but I also don't need a lot of bells and whistles.
 
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