Entryhazard
Banned
Those are minor cases compared to walls made of missle blocks or doors that can be opened by specific weapons, which are the vast majority of the game.
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I WANT: Open world Zelda; core items from start; challenging, with skippable tutorial
- Thread starter Neiteio
- Start date
Those are minor cases compared to walls made of missle blocks or doors that can be opened by specific weapons, which are the vast majority of the game.
Oh, watch out. Sometimes l's and r's have interchangeable pronunciation in Japan.
You should play Zelda II.
eXistor
Member
Yeah I find it hard to find fault with the op's description. It's pretty much what I had in mind for a long time for the series. I doubt Nintendo is ever gonna make that game though, they're gonna do what they wanna do and that's fine too; just about all Zelda games have been magnificent in their own way.
If I were to give Nintendo a few simple guidelines, I'd say:
-Less handholding: let players find things out themselves. Miiverse is the perfect excuse to allow this.
-Open up the world: I want that sense of adventure and discovery back. Don't make it like Elder Scrolls obviously, but give players the sense that they're on they're out on their own, discovering things. You just can't get that with a linear game as Skyward Sword proved (which I love btw).
-Day-night cycle: It's been too long since we had a proper day-night cycle in Zelda. Make it meaningful too, not just aesthetic.
-Optional tutorial area: When you first start the game you're given an option: tutorial area or skip straight to the game. If you choose the tutorial, you'll be given a completely unique area to play around in, with the game teaching you the basics. Anyone will want to play this as it's unique content, so everyone is likely to play it and learn about the game, but this way no one can fault the game for having a tutorial as it's entirely optional. On subsequent playthroughs, you can just opt to skip it entirely, which should help the pace tremendously.
-Tools should be found all over the world, (not just dungeons) and sequence breaks should be allowed for expert players: I'd love it if we could have a world where certain tools and such are available from the start, you just have to know where to look. Say you get a sidequest and at the end of it, you get a new tool, but if you restart the game, you could just skip the quest and get right to where the tool is and get it. A game like Fallout 1 is a great example of how this could work; the waterchip you have to get can be gotten very quickly if you know what to do and where to look. But on your first playthrough you'll have to do various quests and progress the story a bunch to get to know the location.
I have 100% faith in Nintendo and I'm sure the next Zelda will be great, but if they could implement these things into it at all, or even just a few or to a certain degree, I would be in heaven.
If I were to give Nintendo a few simple guidelines, I'd say:
-Less handholding: let players find things out themselves. Miiverse is the perfect excuse to allow this.
-Open up the world: I want that sense of adventure and discovery back. Don't make it like Elder Scrolls obviously, but give players the sense that they're on they're out on their own, discovering things. You just can't get that with a linear game as Skyward Sword proved (which I love btw).
-Day-night cycle: It's been too long since we had a proper day-night cycle in Zelda. Make it meaningful too, not just aesthetic.
-Optional tutorial area: When you first start the game you're given an option: tutorial area or skip straight to the game. If you choose the tutorial, you'll be given a completely unique area to play around in, with the game teaching you the basics. Anyone will want to play this as it's unique content, so everyone is likely to play it and learn about the game, but this way no one can fault the game for having a tutorial as it's entirely optional. On subsequent playthroughs, you can just opt to skip it entirely, which should help the pace tremendously.
-Tools should be found all over the world, (not just dungeons) and sequence breaks should be allowed for expert players: I'd love it if we could have a world where certain tools and such are available from the start, you just have to know where to look. Say you get a sidequest and at the end of it, you get a new tool, but if you restart the game, you could just skip the quest and get right to where the tool is and get it. A game like Fallout 1 is a great example of how this could work; the waterchip you have to get can be gotten very quickly if you know what to do and where to look. But on your first playthrough you'll have to do various quests and progress the story a bunch to get to know the location.
I have 100% faith in Nintendo and I'm sure the next Zelda will be great, but if they could implement these things into it at all, or even just a few or to a certain degree, I would be in heaven.
RealDeadOne
Member
If this is what you want from a Zelda game, then you do not want a Zelda game.
It sounds like a great game, but there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for it to be a Zelda game. Why can't it just be its own game? Why don't you ask for this in a Dark Souls game instead?
It sounds like a great game, but there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for it to be a Zelda game. Why can't it just be its own game? Why don't you ask for this in a Dark Souls game instead?
LegendofLex
Member
It sounds to me like OP wants a closer sequel to this game:
But of course one that's in the OoT-style 3D with things like day/night cycles.
ALBW is insanely easy by any metric and isn't a 3D Zelda.
The only reason that game doesn't hold your hand is because it's too easy for that to be necessary.
Yoshi
Headmaster of Console Warrior Jugendstrafanstalt
I should have my skull checked, since I've just been told there might be something missing in there oO.
- I don't want the next Zelda to copy the first game's structure, that's annoying and not good game design.
- I don't want complete randomness in dungeon-order. It will lead to a very bad difficulty curve. A Link Between Worlds had a three-tier-system and even that was not without the obvious difficulty-problems
- time cycle ala Majoras Mask is nice, but seven days is overdoing it and leads to a lot of senseless filler and more trial-and-error than MM has anyway.
- I don't want the focus to shift towards fighting, so making the game brutally difficult would either mean designing completely different dungeons for easy mode, or destroying the balance of the game. I'd love a normal game (say SS-level of difficulty) and a hard mode that uniformly makes the puzzles and the fights more difficult.
- I don't want any online-features that are not absolutely optional and superficial in any game, especially in Zelda
I agree, just include the tickly hard mode from the outset. Don't make me beat it on filthy casual mode first.
I'm thinking they could make dungeons easier if you have the right item, but that item isn't required to proceed through the game. You will face a harder challenge without the right equipment though.
decoyplatypus
Member
Nintendo seems less concerned that players will struggle with controls in a 2D game. Having watched non-gamers attempt Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time in sequence, I can't say that's a totally unfounded attitude. But even if Nintendo feels a need for more "teaching" in a 3D game, that's no reason for the extreme handholding that has infected the series. If you've got a safe zone for the player to experiment with the controls and basic game concepts, that should be enough. Let players pick up sword fighting, auto-jumping, rolling, etc. on their own from there (or go to a guide house if they're really lost). Kokiri Forest was a pretty comprehensive tutorial in OoT, and an experienced player could run through it in five minutes. Even a newbie probably reaches the Deku Tree in fifteen to twenty minutes.
well yeah. no reason why all the difficulties shouldn't be unlocked at the outset.
SoraanTribal
Member
This is how I feel as well. I loved A Link Between Worlds, but I wouldn't want every Zelda to be just like that. The dungeons were pretty good, but due to the fact that you could do the dungeons in most any order meant the puzzles were only made to use 1 item and there was no real difficulty curve. It seems like recently, everyone wants every game to be open world and that automatically makes everything better, but I disagree completely. I actually don't mind the linear progression of previous 3D Zelda games and in fact, prefer it in a lot of cases.
Having a brutal difficulty is fine as long as it's just a "hard/hero" mode version, but I'd like for it to also completely change the puzzles. Seems like a lot of extra work for just another difficulty setting, so I don't know how likely that would happen.
I think one thing everyone can agree on is the skippable tutorial stuff. At the very least, let you skip it on later playthroughs.
Can't agree with that. I think we can simply blame developer choice for not using more than 1 item per dungeon. It's not a gameplay restraint inherent to that type of design. You can rent all the items and have them all before you even go to the first Lorule dungeon, so in theory they could easily require you to use more than one item per dungeon.
SoraanTribal
Member
Hmm, this is very true. I could understand why they didn't do it for the first 3 dungeons to keep things a bit simple and ease newcomers into the game, but I'm curious why none of the other dungeons required multiple items to enter them. That would have been pretty cool if it worked out like that.
MagnaderAlpha
Member
I wouldn't say a big overhaul, but something different, sure. I think the constant safe road can only last so long. It's been in play so long(since OoT) that Zelda fans can't help to believe it's the ONLY way. I think there's more you can do, as far as exploration, action-battles, tactics and such that can be injected into the LoZ formula to make something REALLY awesome. If not now, then never, I guess.
I think this is a big part of what I don't care about in 3D LoZ games. I'd say, up the "fun combat" aspect, not make it harder, but make it feel more rewarding and fun to do. Up the ante as far as this is concerned. Oddly enough, I see the Musou Zelda game(Hyrule Warriors?) and seeing Link go crazy... THAT looks fuckin fun. I wouldn't say make Link THAT over-the-top, but something above what we already have, sure.
GiantEnemyGoomba
Member
I really enjoyed the concepts ALBW explored, and I'd like to see some of them implemented in the new Zelda, just not to the same extent. ALBW suffered from (very good) easy dungeons due to only requiring a single item. That said, the non-linearity of the overworld created the best pacing of any game ever, which I would love to see translated into a 3D Zelda.
Personally I think this would be a good way of comprising between the classic formula and ALBW:
//COMPLETLY OPTIONAL\ tutorial
Story/Exposition stuff
Dungeons 1-3 done in any order
Story
Dungeons 4-6 in any order
Story
Dungeons 7-9 in any order
Ganon's castle or equivalent
Link could start with bombs, arrows, and boomerang to get through the first three dungeons. Unlike ALBW, each dungeon will have it's own item, so dungeons 4-6 will be able to make use of six of them and 7-9 will be able to use nine.
I think this formula would give people the freedom they want from the series while maintaining the tight design we've come to expect. Of course, the final game will be nothing like this, but it's nice to dream.
Personally I think this would be a good way of comprising between the classic formula and ALBW:
//COMPLETLY OPTIONAL\ tutorial
Story/Exposition stuff
Dungeons 1-3 done in any order
Story
Dungeons 4-6 in any order
Story
Dungeons 7-9 in any order
Ganon's castle or equivalent
Link could start with bombs, arrows, and boomerang to get through the first three dungeons. Unlike ALBW, each dungeon will have it's own item, so dungeons 4-6 will be able to make use of six of them and 7-9 will be able to use nine.
I think this formula would give people the freedom they want from the series while maintaining the tight design we've come to expect. Of course, the final game will be nothing like this, but it's nice to dream.
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
The OP's ideas are damn near perfect. I lost all hope in the Zelda franchise until I played A Link Between Worlds, and now that I know they're capable of making a Zelda game I can be truly excited about, my anticipation for the Wii U Zelda is through the roof.
But it would be very frustrating to advance in a dungeon, only to find later that you need to trek back to get a missing item from the rental. To an average gamer at least...
Play ALBW.
Razgriz-Specter
Member
Where is that Skyrim'ish Zelda fan art(snow temple thing) when you need it.
whatever they do I hope they get as far away from TP's world design as possible, corridors everywhere.
whatever they do I hope they get as far away from TP's world design as possible, corridors everywhere.
SoraanTribal
Member
Well you could just do what ALBW did and require all the items to enter the dungeon in the first place. So you wouldn't have to progress in the dungeon to find out you needed something else - you'd have to have that item to even start the dungeon. I mean, I know ALBW only required 1 item to enter the dungeon, but if they expanded on that idea, they could make it require 2-3 items to enter certain dungeons so puzzles could be more complicated.
John Kowalski
Banned
I have enjoyed every single Zelda game i've played so far so all would ask of the developer is for them to do what they think is best.
Everyone is happy.
Everyone is happy.
Silphonica
Banned
Here's the thing. What link uses in zelda is limited. Removing loot from an open world game makes me sad.
K
kittens
Unconfirmed Member
We've had 15 years of the Ocarina of Time formula, and I don't want anymore. Ever. I'm so sick of it.
What would you say is the Ocarina of Time formula? Can you describe it or is it just something that doesn't actually exist or is completely meaningless to use as a scapegoat. I'm not saying that the games do not have actual problems, but that the "formula" excuse that people keep using is bullshit.
Basic Zelda gameplay is going to dungeons, getting items, solving puzzles, and fighting enemies. Those are the basic things that make Zelda Zelda. Those are what every Zelda has in common because that's what they need to have in order to be Zelda. The games have all presented a great variety for all of the basic elements and introduced new elements in every installment. Every game has something very unique about it that sets it apart from the rest of the franchise. Every game comes up with new dungeons with new puzzles and new enemies and new tactics. The worlds themselves even differ vastly from one another, apart from ALBW.
Sometimes it feels like the complaints are just automatic and people don't take the time to do a proper analysis. Skyward Sword with people complaining about "forced tutorials" is a prime example. People complained about the cat rescue that you don't even have to do and the sword practice that you don't even have to do. Fi even gives you the option of skipping her tutorials on mechanics that she introduces. Skyward Sword introduces a lot of new mechanics that the franchises hasn't had before, they have to put in tutorials, but they did make them optional.
fredrancour
Member
What part are you calling the formula? Moment-to-moment gameplay, plot structure, something else?
weekend_warrior
Banned
PLAY: Dark Souls
READ: The OP!
I love Dark Souls, but it doesn't exactly have the puzzles, etc. It's not Zelda. But Zelda can definitely take some cues from Dark Souls. And I'm glad ALBW wound up doing a lot of what I suggested when I started this thread in 2012.
I'm sure it's been covered, but no, not even close to what the op wants.
elementalsin
Member
Its funny... All the time I've seen this character.. loved the design, praised the texturing and modeling and style..... WTF is up with that left hand!? Reminds me of some of my older models that I look at and just think 'wow... really... I missed that'
V AA D E R
Neo Member
When people say open world for Zelda how do they define it? Like a GTA open world with lots visually going on but it's all flash/no substance? A Mass Effect open world that really isn't all that open? Or a Skyrim open world that's less pretty and has way less going on but is chock full of meaningful interaction?
It means being able to tackle the dungeons in practically any order. More than a year after I made this thread, ALBW came out and did something very close to what I suggested.
I think it'd be even better if they did exactly as I suggested -- rather than renting the starting toolkit, just give it to players permanently from the start, and design all of the dungeons around all of the tools (but some would focus more on one tool than another). And then inside each dungeon, you can find a new item that factors into that dungeon, certain optional areas in the overworld, and the final dungeon where every tool is used.
But the key thing is your starting toolkit will allow you to access virtually all of the dungeons from the onset... provided you can find them by exploring the overworld. Which is where the element of adventure and exploration comes back, as ALBW proved. And since the game knows you'll have, say, six tools guaranteed, rather than one, it can make the puzzles that much more complex.
Of course, if one dungeon is too tough, you can try another and come back later when you have more Pieces of Heart, etc. And of course, each dungeon can have neighboring locales and NPCs with their own storylines, etc, which give meaning to each new dungeon you challenge beyond simply finding it on a map.
Honestly...
I think they're referring to the original Legend of Zelda.
I'd be interesting if there were no maps in the new Zelda's over world. Everything had to be drawn by the player, and you can compare and sell maps to people on miiverse. Hmmm...
Shhh you're being too logical.
fredrancour
Member
Y'know how the save file screen always shows all the end-dungeon objective-items (in this case
you've got as a means of recording progress? It was so weird to load up my ALBW file today and see that the first dungeon I beat out of the second group wasn't the first on the list.
Edit: And I've definitely died a couple times.
the sage portraits
Edit: And I've definitely died a couple times.
I agree. Which is why I think they should keep the "all items, any order" design of LBW, but get rid of the rental system. Make some way to get the player every major item early on so they know they have every item and always will. Then they can really design dungeons around more than one item at a time. Would be interesting.
Yep, that's been the core of my proposal since 2012. Everyone starts the game with a core starting toolkit -- sword, shield, bow, bombs, boomerang, hookshot, net and lantern. Give or take a few items, with more items to be found in dungeons. But that core toolkit of 6-8 items will be in your inventory at all times, right from the start, and this will allow the devs to design the dungeons accordingly.
What results are more complex dungeons, which you can still do in any order. Different dungeons will focus more on different items, but you'll always have what you need to start off each dungeon.
Dion Blaster
Member
Wow that's an amazing idea.
Or you can keep the rental system and just have paths leading to dungeons that require 2 or 3 items to enter.
I WANT: The next Zelda game for Wii U to be announced by a trailer starting with a black screen and an epic voice saying: "It's dangerous to go alone".
Maybe not the whole game but they could do an uncharted territory.
Damn That;s a good idea from a banned man