iRAWRasaurus
Banned
Investigators believe Ohio State attacker was inspired by ISIS and Al-Awlaki
Ban me from the country if old.
Ban me from
fuck Trump since this will help support him.
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Investigators believe Ohio State attacker was inspired by ISIS and Al-Awlaki
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Beer Monkey
Member
The police officer did a great job. I hate to imagine the chaos that may have broken out if guns were permitted for civilians on campus.
Netherscourge
Banned
Trump tweet incoming in 5, 4, 3, ....
Shrike_Priest
Member
It's almost as if the propaganda arm of ISIS/Al-Qaeda is counting on marginalised radicals to carry out attacks in their name as a way of keeping relevant and recruiting new forces
What a cunning plan.
Let's register all muslims to make sure we know which ones are the baddies. That's sure to show them not to listen to radicals like Al-Awlaki.
What a cunning plan.
Let's register all muslims to make sure we know which ones are the baddies. That's sure to show them not to listen to radicals like Al-Awlaki.
It's almost as if the ideas of Radical Islam promote violence.
Profiling Muslims is wrong. Acknowledging the dangers of Radical Islam and the proliferation of its ideas is not.
I think we also have to acknowledge that the war on terror has been a failure and we need to consider a new strategy.
This problem cannot be solved by the military action. We are 15 years from 9/11.
Nobody thinks Islamic terrorism doesn't promote violence lol
Randolph Freelander
Member
Fortunately for the time being, it's just tweets.
January 20, the nightmare arrives in force.
Psamtik. Death's Demise
Banned
Boy, at the rate at which these guys are killing zero people, we'll all... die of natural causes.
You'll have to wait for the early hours of the morning for that one.
But ISIS and co will use an attack of 'Radical Ismlam' as an attack of just 'Islam' and that will help their recruiting effort.
Making Muslims feel more marginalized is only going to make things worse.
Audioboxer
Member
Orlando? ....
A machete or knife can often be incredibly deadly. ISIS often use machetes due to a passage in Islamic text that mentions going for the throat. Hence the barbaric cutting off of the head in many ISIS killings, even while they have access to as many guns as you could find (largely thanks to the UK and US selling said guns to Saudi Arabia and what not....).
However that aside, in a country where it is "easy" to get guns, you get atrocities like that seen in Orlando. Not every terrorist is going to use a blade, or only a blade.
Sadly there is no stopping of religious inspired attrocities. The texts and books have existed for many years and will continue to. We just need to carry on being open and honest in conversations and trying to catch many of those radicalized either before they attempt to come in, or if they show signs whilst within your country. Hindsight is often too late as people end up injured or killed.
You're not grasping the nuance. If you think the Muslim religion has something to do with it, you wouldn't just be talking about the radicalized version (you're already approaching doublespeak). You'd also have to reckon with the cognitive dissonance caused by the existence of violent manifestations of basically all the other religions happening now and throughout history. Any religion can be radicalized -- we already have examples with most religions. And obviously, non-religious ideas can be radicalized too.
That's why it's misguided to focus on the religion.
When white guys murder little kids or people in a church we shrug our shoulders.
But we go to war and/or cause hell for innocent people over this shit. It's fucking crazy.
We could actually work to improve mental health, keeping guns out of some people's hands, and fight domestic/foreign terrorist threats.
But fuck it. Shrug or kill.
But we go to war and/or cause hell for innocent people over this shit. It's fucking crazy.
We could actually work to improve mental health, keeping guns out of some people's hands, and fight domestic/foreign terrorist threats.
But fuck it. Shrug or kill.
Galactic Specter
Member
Sad!
Psamtik. Death's Demise
Banned
It's misguided to be way more afraid of individual killers with a particular religious motivation than we are/were of other angry young men like Seung-Hui Cho, Elliot Rodger, and Dylann Roof.
And that's before we even get to Anders Breivik...
And that's before we even get to Anders Breivik...
Fuck Islamic extremists instead of Trump.
Jag
Member
Don't disagree, but I think you have to focus on the religion (without placing blame on the religion) because even if they are following some bastard/improper form of Islam, it still forms the basis for these particular types of attacks. So you need to follow it back to the source in order to stop it.
This dude was probably a regular Muslim, but somehow he got radicalized. That's where the focus needs to be.
That's a little disengeous, there are 246 million white people in this country vs 2.5 million muslims, so while there are mass murdering white men, a much smaller percentage of them do it than radical islamists.
Don't take this the wrong way, I find the idea of a Muslim registry terrible, but you have to admit that radical Islam is an issue.
Shrike_Priest
Member
I literally said that Isis and Al-qaeda were counting on people carrying out violence in their name. How is that not me saying they promote violence?
Of course they do, they're terrorists.
What I'm against is the proposed solution, which right now is definitely of the "profiling" variety. There's no nuance. The talking points aren't concerned with separating wahhabist muslims from other branches. They paint "radical islam" as this amorphous ominous blob and nowhere do they make the distinction between different denominations or types of islam.
Which is just a recipe for creating more lone wolf-attackers. The profile is clear. Young muslim male who hangs out too much on ISIS-friendly Facebook groups. That group is not going to be smaller or have an easier time resisting the propaganda if society at large enacts more policies to keep them stigmatised.
Yeah, and we need to work on things that keep young muslims from being radicalised. Painting a big ass bullseye on their backs as potential terrorists is not going to accomplish that. What does it say to a fifteen year old if the society he lives in wants to register him because he could be a potential threat? Is that going to deter him or make him pissed off and believe the anti-USA bullshit ISIS' propaganda wing is spewing 24/7?
Isn't that what the Obama admin has been doing?
I think you attack it on two fronts. You find, infiltrate, kill the terrorists. Obama has been pretty effective at this. Secondly, you try to strip the terrorists of the environment that lets them recruit. The excessive war and meddling in the Middle East, the negative stigmatization of Muslims, Trump -- these things only strengthen their ability to recruit and build support.
That's just simply not true. Nearly all other religions have gone through complete reformations and transformations. No other religion produces the amount of radicals as Islam.
Not to mention there are multiple levels of "radicalism" in Islam. Islam has a unique problem that other religions do not have. It's no coincidence that in countries where Islam thrives have anti-liberal ideas. Women are mistreated and don't have rights. Homosexuality is punishable by death. Etc.
Before anyone counters by saying "Christianity has had atrocities" or "Buddhism has radical terrorism right now" I will merely say the following: Christianity does not commit atrocities on this level anymore (in 2016). Their religion has been reformed, religious-inspired acts of terrorism are incredibly rare in Christianity. The same goes for the problems that Buddhism is currently experiencing. They are simply not at the scale of Islam.
Ha, that's all it took for you to drop fake "I'm only talking about radical Islam" facade?
Agree they are on different scale, but when you examine why, you lazily just chalk it up to the religion itself. You don't seem to acknowledge that the west has NOT been spending the last century or more colonizing, invading, bombing, overthrowing democracies, stigmatizing, and otherwise being incredibly offensive to Christian and Buddhist populations around the world on the same scale, either.
That's exactly right, you can say "but the crusades was Christian violent extremism" and be correct, but Christianity has modernized since then, and there are very few modern examples of Christian extremism. You just can't say this about Islam. The efforts by western Islamic imams needs to be encouraged because that is the best way to reform it.
A Muslim registry is not, so while yes, we cannot stick our head in the sand about Islamic terrorism, profiling Muslims is the absolute worst thing to do. It is morally wrong and just makes it worse.
ISIS do no practice Islam. They use it as a recruiting and radicalizing tool.
Muslims all across the world feel persecuted and hated for their beliefs. This leads some to think that terrorist organizations who parade a religious platform are fighting the good fight. Religion has always been used to radicalize the masses into doing particularly unsavory things.
When we blame Islam for the actions of terrorists, we are playing right into ISIS's hands. They want us to be afraid of Islam so that we persecute Muslims, because persecuted peoples are much easier to radicalize.
Do not blame Islam. Do not fear Islam. Embrace your Muslim brothers and sisters and let them know they are loved and do not have to be afraid. Fear fuels terrorism.
Muslims all across the world feel persecuted and hated for their beliefs. This leads some to think that terrorist organizations who parade a religious platform are fighting the good fight. Religion has always been used to radicalize the masses into doing particularly unsavory things.
When we blame Islam for the actions of terrorists, we are playing right into ISIS's hands. They want us to be afraid of Islam so that we persecute Muslims, because persecuted peoples are much easier to radicalize.
Do not blame Islam. Do not fear Islam. Embrace your Muslim brothers and sisters and let them know they are loved and do not have to be afraid. Fear fuels terrorism.
Most Islamic terrorism happens in majority-muslim countries and they slaughter other muslims, dude. I guess what you said relates somewhat to homegrown terrorists, but it comes nowhere near to explaining all the other violence.
Shrike_Priest
Member
And what kind of actionable policy could you enact from identifying Islam as a root cause of terrorism? Modern terror research points to many different simultaneous factors causing terrorism, but if we assume that none of the others matter and the important one is the religion itself. What do you do?
This is just demonstrably untrue. ISIS absolutely does practice Islam. They are directly influenced and inspired by their religious doctrine. Both the Quran and the Hadith directly inspire the actions of ISIS.
It's weird that you say ISIS use it as a radicalizing tool, yet they are not inspired by religion at all. So, they use religion to inspire the ideas and radicalization, yet the religion is not to blame?
Inspire and promote Islamic leaders that want to reform the religion. Currently it's hard to be a reformer in Islam, because you risk being executed. Currently you can't even really criticize Islam without fear of being killed. You can't draw comics of their leaders without fear of being attacked. You can't write a critical blog in Turkey without fear of being found and killed.
So, I'd say a good start would be to promote religious reform and promote leaders that want it. It's a difficult problem.
...No, I mean that persecution isn't enough to explain why someone would join a terrorist organisation. The copts are persecuted, but they don't turn to terrorism. Instead, most of the terrorism in Egypt is committed by jihadists, despite the fact that muslims are the overwhelming majority and in no way persecuted.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
The subject of mental health is often brought up in the case of white school shooters, but rarely seems to be mentioned with "radical Islamic terrorists".
ISIS propaganda may have been behind this, but it only works by manipulating people. Something needs to be done to help those who are being preyed upon, in addition to ending the obscene fuckery in the Middle East.
ISIS propaganda may have been behind this, but it only works by manipulating people. Something needs to be done to help those who are being preyed upon, in addition to ending the obscene fuckery in the Middle East.
The religion itself is not to blame, it is the heads of these organizations twisting the beliefs of the religion to fit their own radical ideals. Any religion can be used to inspire violence, Islam is not special in this case. Yes, technically, they are inspired by Islam to commit acts of violence, but saying that the religion itself is the problem is simply not true. Christianity wasn't the problem during the Christian crusades, it was the people at the top who twisted its ideals to justify their actions.
DragonSworne
Banned
Christianity was 100% the problem and reason for the crusades. Why do you think it wasn't until secularism did we finally make progress in the western world?
I guess what I'm trying to say is that blaming religions instead of people is counter productive. Blaming Islam for what this man at Ohio State did only adds fuel to the fire. We should blame the people who radicalized him, not what they radicalized him with. Islam does need reform, yes, but many try to blame it wholly for terrorism when the cause of terrorism is significantly more complicated than that.
I don't understand the cognitive dissonance you have. The people committing these actions are clearly stating their inspirations from religion. They are clearly doing these because they believe there is a better life waiting for them. They clearly believe they will be rewarded for this actions. They are clearly inspired by religion.
It is absolutely the problem of the religious doctrine.
This is simply, once again, not true. Their actions are directly inspired by texts in Islamic doctrine. In both the Quran and the Hadith. They are using these texts to justify their actions and beliefs. Jihad is a specific doctrine in Islam.
A lot Muslims do not believe in Jihad, Sharia Law, etc. or interpret it in another way.
A lot of Muslims support the doctrines & Sharia Law, but do not act upon it personally. (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...key-findings-in-the-u-s-and-around-the-world/)
A small segment of Muslims (Radical Islamists) commit atrocities based upon these doctrines.
Audioboxer
Member
It's a bit of a taboo subject to mention mental health with religion. Religion is one of the things you can get leeway with to say was your reasoning behind believing/doing something. It's societies broken way of trying to be compatible with what are objectively ridiculous beliefs.
Kind of something akin to what you believe behind closed doors in your personal life is up to you. It's a noble and compassionate stance to take, but one which also fails to handle the fact when humans believe objectively ridiculous things they often then do ridiculous things as well. Whether said things are oppressive, violent or just anti-scientific and lies in the face of evidence (evolution/age of the earth/etc).
We'll sooner commit someone who believes fairies and santa claus are real than someone who believed that a horse flew into space or a snake talked. Or that a God talks to them and tells them what to do. Objectively ridiculous beliefs require insane evidence. Faith however does not need evidence, so it skirts any conventional needs for evidence and becomes evidence itself.
So while one can view all religions as mental health concerns, you're going to get slapped with a massive taboo sticker and told you are most likely being discriminatory. It doesn't matter if objectively you are right, emotions and feelings lead to subjectivity being more important than objectivity. As I said it is a noble and compassionate cause to want to let everyone believe what they want behind closed doors. The issue becomes messy when 6 billion plus people need to live on the same planet where some want to kill, injure or immobilise you simply due to your beliefs or how you were born.
Wow
Pamplemousse
Member
Shocker! Absolutely disgusting piece of trash
This isn't entirely untrue, however one problem with religion is that since there is no objective authority on whose interpretation of religion is the "truer" one, so we can't say that people using religion to justify certain actions are using a "wrong" interpretation of the religion. They're just as correct as the average moderate person, because there is no objective fact to religion.
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