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Iraq crisis: How Saudi Arabia helped ISIS take over the north of the country

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Lots of reading. Lots of interesting stuff.
A speech by an ex-MI6 boss hints at a plan going back over a decade. In some areas, being Shia is akin to being a Jew in Nazi Germany.
How far is Saudi Arabia complicit in the Isis takeover of much of northern Iraq, and is it stoking an escalating Sunni-Shia conflict across the Islamic world? Some time before 9/11, Prince Bandar bin Sultan, once the powerful Saudi ambassador in Washington and head of Saudi intelligence until a few months ago, had a revealing and ominous conversation with the head of the British Secret Intelligence Service, MI6, Sir Richard Dearlove. Prince Bandar told him: "The time is not far off in the Middle East, Richard, when it will be literally 'God help the Shia'. More than a billion Sunnis have simply had enough of them."
There is no doubt about the accuracy of the quote by Prince Bandar, secretary-general of the Saudi National Security Council from 2005 and head of General Intelligence between 2012 and 2014, the crucial two years when al-Qa'ida-type jihadis took over the Sunni-armed opposition in Iraq and Syria. Speaking at the Royal United Services Institute last week, Dearlove, who headed MI6 from 1999 to 2004, emphasised the significance of Prince Bandar's words, saying that they constituted "a chilling comment that I remember very well indeed".
The forecast by Prince Bandar, who was at the heart of Saudi security policy for more than three decades, that the 100 million Shia in the Middle East face disaster at the hands of the Sunni majority, will convince many Shia that they are the victims of a Saudi-led campaign to crush them. "The Shia in general are getting very frightened after what happened in northern Iraq," said an Iraqi commentator, who did not want his name published. Shia see the threat as not only military but stemming from the expanded influence over mainstream Sunni Islam of Wahhabism, the puritanical and intolerant version of Islam espoused by Saudi Arabia that condemns Shia and other Islamic sects as non-Muslim apostates and polytheists.

Dearlove says that he has no inside knowledge obtained since he retired as head of MI6 10 years ago to become Master of Pembroke College in Cambridge. But, drawing on past experience, he sees Saudi strategic thinking as being shaped by two deep-seated beliefs or attitudes. First, they are convinced that there "can be no legitimate or admissible challenge to the Islamic purity of their Wahhabi credentials as guardians of Islam's holiest shrines". But, perhaps more significantly given the deepening Sunni-Shia confrontation, the Saudi belief that they possess a monopoly of Islamic truth leads them to be "deeply attracted towards any militancy which can effectively challenge Shia-dom".

Western governments traditionally play down the connection between Saudi Arabia and its Wahhabist faith, on the one hand, and jihadism, whether of the variety espoused by Osama bin Laden and al-Qa'ida or by Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi's Isis. There is nothing conspiratorial or secret about these links: 15 out of 19 of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis, as was Bin Laden and most of the private donors who funded the operation.
But there has always been a second theme to Saudi policy towards al-Qa'ida type jihadis, contradicting Prince Bandar's approach and seeing jihadis as a mortal threat to the Kingdom. Dearlove illustrates this attitude by relating how, soon after 9/11, he visited the Saudi capital Riyadh with Tony Blair.

He remembers the then head of Saudi General Intelligence "literally shouting at me across his office: '9/11 is a mere pinprick on the West. In the medium term, it is nothing more than a series of personal tragedies. What these terrorists want is to destroy the House of Saud and remake the Middle East.'" In the event, Saudi Arabia adopted both policies, encouraging the jihadis as a useful tool of Saudi anti-Shia influence abroad but suppressing them at home as a threat to the status quo. It is this dual policy that has fallen apart over the last year.

Saudi sympathy for anti-Shia "militancy" is identified in leaked US official documents. The then US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton wrote in December 2009 in a cable released by Wikileaks that "Saudi Arabia remains a critical financial support base for al-Qa'ida, the Taliban, LeT [Lashkar-e-Taiba in Pakistan] and other terrorist groups." She said that, in so far as Saudi Arabia did act against al-Qa'ida, it was as a domestic threat and not because of its activities abroad. This policy may now be changing with the dismissal of Prince Bandar as head of intelligence this year. But the change is very recent, still ambivalent and may be too late: it was only last week that a Saudi prince said he would no longer fund a satellite television station notorious for its anti-Shia bias based in Egypt.
By seeking to weaken Maliki and Assad in the interest of a more moderate Sunni faction, Saudi Arabia and its allies are in practice playing into the hands of Isis which is swiftly gaining full control of the Sunni opposition in Syria and Iraq. In Mosul, as happened previously in its Syrian capital Raqqa, potential critics and opponents are disarmed, forced to swear allegiance to the new caliphate and killed if they resist.

The West may have to pay a price for its alliance with Saudi Arabia and the Gulf monarchies, which have always found Sunni jihadism more attractive than democracy. A striking example of double standards by the western powers was the Saudi-backed suppression of peaceful democratic protests by the Shia majority in Bahrain in March 2011. Some 1,500 Saudi troops were sent across the causeway to the island kingdom as the demonstrations were ended with great brutality and Shia mosques and shrines were destroyed.

An alibi used by the US and Britain is that the Sunni al-Khalifa royal family in Bahrain is pursuing dialogue and reform. But this excuse looked thin last week as Bahrain expelled a top US diplomat, the assistant secretary of state for human rights Tom Malinowksi, for meeting leaders of the main Shia opposition party al-Wifaq. Mr Malinowski tweeted that the Bahrain government's action was "not about me but about undermining dialogue"
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But for all his gargantuan mistakes, Maliki's failings are not the reason why the Iraqi state is disintegrating. What destabilised Iraq from 2011 on was the revolt of the Sunni in Syria and the takeover of that revolt by jihadis, who were often sponsored by donors in Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait and United Arab Emirates. Again and again Iraqi politicians warned that by not seeking to close down the civil war in Syria, Western leaders were making it inevitable that the conflict in Iraq would restart. "I guess they just didn't believe us and were fixated on getting rid of [President Bashar al-] Assad," said an Iraqi leader in Baghdad last week.

Of course, US and British politicians and diplomats would argue that they were in no position to bring an end to the Syrian conflict. But this is misleading. By insisting that peace negotiations must be about the departure of Assad from power, something that was never going to happen since Assad held most of the cities in the country and his troops were advancing, the US and Britain made sure the war would continue.
Saudi Arabia has created a Frankenstein's monster over which it is rapidly losing control. The same is true of its allies such as Turkey which has been a vital back-base for Isis and Jabhat al-Nusra by keeping the 510-mile-long Turkish-Syrian border open. As Kurdish-held border crossings fall to Isis, Turkey will find it has a new neighbour of extraordinary violence, and one deeply ungrateful for past favours from the Turkish intelligence service.

As for Saudi Arabia, it may come to regret its support for the Sunni revolts in Syria and Iraq as jihadi social media begins to speak of the House of Saud as its next target. It is the unnamed head of Saudi General Intelligence quoted by Dearlove after 9/11 who is turning out to have analysed the potential threat to Saudi Arabia correctly and not Prince Bandar, which may explain why the latter was sacked earlier this year.
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...ke-over-the-north-of-the-country-9602312.html
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
Other than possible British support there is nothing controversial or new about this theory. It's disgusting and terrifying, but hardly surprising.
 

Yagharek

Member
It's puzzling why Saudi Arabia isn't an international pariah state as north korea is. They cause more wars and human rights abuses than is acceptable in a civilised world.
 

GSG Flash

Nobody ruins my family vacation but me...and maybe the boy!
It's puzzling why Saudi Arabia isn't an international pariah state as north korea is. They cause more wars and human rights abuses than is acceptable in a civilised world.

Cheap oil, it's pretty much as simple as that, it's what's kept those assholes in power this whole time.
 

Condom

Member
It's puzzling why Saudi Arabia isn't an international pariah state as north korea is. They cause more wars and human rights abuses than is acceptable in a civilised world.

Especially since other Arab countries despise Saudi Arabia, no-one would be sad about the fall of the Saudis except the Saudis themselves. They need a new rule of land.
 

Madness

Member
It's puzzling why Saudi Arabia isn't an international pariah state as north korea is. They cause more wars and human rights abuses than is acceptable in a civilised world.

They tolerate Israel, they supply cheap oil to the US, and they just became the world's largest arms importer beating India and China. They buy billions in overpriced US and European military hardware. It's no surprise they're allowed to get away with what they do.

Just like the Shah of Iran was allowed to be a dictator that was one of the US' strongest allies before he was overthrown in the revolution.

It's always hilarious to see the Republicans and some Democrats in government say Iran is the largest sponsor of terrorism when it's actually Saudi Arabia. The 9/11 hijackers were Yemeni-Sauds who received training and funding from Saudi Arabia, and instead, nothing happened to Saudi Arabia, while Iraq was basically invaded and bombed.
 
Solar power is gonna solve a lot of problems, too bad players in the oil game wont allow it.

our best hope is that advanced nations shift gears towards alternative sources of renewable energy and that this trickles down to the rest of the Western world so we can finally say "fuck you" to Saudi oil
 
They tolerate Israel, they supply cheap oil to the US, and they just became the world's largest arms importer beating India and China. They buy billions in overpriced US and European military hardware. It's no surprise they're allowed to get away with what they do.

Just like the Shah of Iran was allowed to be a dictator that was one of the US' strongest allies before he was overthrown in the revolution.

It's always hilarious to see the Republicans and some Democrats in government say Iran is the largest sponsor of terrorism when it's actually Saudi Arabia. The 9/11 hijackers were Yemeni-Sauds who received training and funding from Saudi Arabia, and instead, nothing happened to Saudi Arabia, while Iraq was basically invaded and bombed.
Germany did the courageous thing recently by banning arms exports to Saudi Arabia. Other countries need to follow suit.
 

Mii

Banned
Well-timed article with Iran negotiations. The issues of the rise of Saudi Wahhabi-ism are critical to understanding many of Iran's own fears and actions in the region.

Iran didn't go begging for a Sunni-Shia conflict. Saudi Arabia did. Iran is mostly reacting.

The sooner we can detach ourselves from Saudi Arabia, the better.
 
I really don't see any positive outcome for the US and UK supporting the Assad regime. It sucks that it was a hotbed for ISIS, but the precedent it would have set, and the bad blood it would have caused, would not have been worth it.

Staying out of it (for the most part) was the smartest strategy.
 

Heshinsi

"playing" dumb? unpossible
Wasn't Bandar the dickwad that promised Russia that they would "let loose" terrorists on the Winter Olympics, if Russia didn't stop supporting Assad? The whole way the U.S. keeps fighting this war on terror, is akin to a doctor continuously fighting against a disease's symptoms, and not the underlying root cause that the sickness stems from.
 

Azih

Member
Please tell me you aren't serious?
Afghanistan and Pakistan being as shit as they are has a lot to do with the Saudi foreign policy of supporting Sunni militants. (where do you think the ideological roots of the Taliban are?)

Assad is a smoke screen. He's in no way comparable to his ISIS foes.
 

Heshinsi

"playing" dumb? unpossible
Afghanistan and Pakistan being as shit as they are has a lot to do with the Saudi foreign policy of supporting Sunni militants. (where do you think the ideological roots of the Taliban are?)

Assad is a smoke screen. He's in no way comparable to his ISIS foes.
Yep. Saudi Arabia and the ISA playing kingmakers pretty much helped the Taliban take over the country.
 
A pleasing aspect of the late Obama presidency (helped in no part by the shale oil boom), has been the realignment of US policy away from Saudi Arabia in conjunction with the hardening of the US's position towards the ruling Israeli political party.

By no means should they look to lean on Iran as an effective partner, but a more reasoned/realpolitik approach of looking to play both Iran and the Saudis against each other to achieve the best possible outcome in terms of Western strategic interests is encouraging.

The only fly in the ointment to this more strategic playing of the great game would be the ideological ignorance of the Republican Party and the influence of the powerful Jewish lobby on the US house of representatives.
 
It's ironic how Isis will probably turn around and slaughter them all, the Obama administration has let Isis grown out of control, without troops on the ground and an aggressive bombing campaign aimed at inflicting massive casualties on Isis combatants instead of targeting mere equipment, Isis is not going to be stopped and relying on "partners" like the Saudis is completely futile.
 
It's ironic how Isis will probably turn around and slaughter them all, the Obama administration has let Isis grown out of control, without troops on the ground, Isis is not going to be stopped and relying on "partners" like the Saudis us completely futile.

There are two "o"'s in moron. I guess you can't edit/correct your username after creation ?
 
It's ironic how Isis will probably turn around and slaughter them all, the Obama administration has let Isis grown out of control, without troops on the ground and an aggressive bombing campaign aimed at inflicting massive casualties on Isis combatants instead of targeting mere equipment, Isis is not going to be stopped and relying on "partners" like the Saudis us completely futile.

Thats why Iran is doing the brunt of the work on ISIS.

And Bandar (fitting that his name means monkey) can get fucked. Saudi influence on literally anything is truly fucked.
 
Thats why Iran is doing the brunt of the work on ISIS.

And Bandar (fitting that his name means monkey) can get fucked. Saudi influence on literally anything is truly fucked.
Letting the Iranians capture Iraqi cities and petroleum facilities from Isis isn't exactly the brightest idea, they might not give them back.
 
Letting the Iranians capture Iraqi cities and petroleum facilities from Isis isn't exactly the brightest idea, they might not give them back.

And there is the genocide thing where they're killing all the sunnis.

For Maher, the fight is an existential one against an enemy whose brutality justifies the harshest tactics. Aware of what would befall them if they were captured, his militia routinely executes prisoners. "The hardcore ones, we kill. What else can we do?" he says. Any Sunnis who remain in the area meet the same fate. "We treat them like Daesh. Either they leave their houses and flee, or they're killed in the fight."
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/inside-baghdads-brutal-battle-against-isis-20150313?page=4
 
You are right. Germany did it too, but they were less verbal about it so it wouldn't cause a backlash.

Edit: Here is a source.
That decision is not final. It was discussed again last month when Ger gov visited KSA.

Even when they say it's just private citizens rather than the state who support terrorism, there's not a doubt in my mind that they 1) are lying to some degree, 2) still support extreme fringe parties in Suni vs Shia conflicts and 3) could do more to prevent their citizens from becoming and supporting terrorists.
 

Madness

Member
So who belongs in this civilized world of yours? The people who invaded Iraq in the first place? The same people who nuked Japan?

You're seriously going to equare the US as an equal to what Saudi Arabia does? What does nuking Japan have to do with anything? It was almost 70 years ago. It lead to their immediate surrender, and ended the war on the Pacific front and saved most of Japan from being invaded and millions of its civilians and soldiers from death. Any war analyst or historian will tell you that dropping the atom bombs on Japan, regardless of you how feel about nuclear weapons now, was the smartest move available. This revisionism in trying to portray the US as evil in World War II doesn't take into account Japan first committed a terrorist attack on Pearl Harbor that became an official declaration of War. It was also a brutal imperialistic and fascist regime that also invaded several neighboring countries and killed thousands and thousands of people. It also allied with Nazi Germany and fascist Italy.

Don't get me wrong, the US is absolutely hypocritical and is very aggressive as a superpower in ensuring it's objectives are met but what they do is different than from what Saudi Arabia does. They are very different countries. Saudi Arabia is one of the largest sponsors of terrorism in the world, it's a brutal regime where dissent is silenced, women cannot even leave their house without male consent, cannot drive. They literally lash you on the street if you speak negative about them or the country, behead you on roads etc.
 

GSG Flash

Nobody ruins my family vacation but me...and maybe the boy!
Please tell me you aren't serious?

Why wouldn't he be serious? It's true. I hold Saudi Arabia single handedly responsible for the state Pakistan is currently in.

Saudi Arabia went full religiously fundamentalist after the Mecca Grand Mosque seizure in 1979. It is after that event that they gave more power to clerics and religious conservatives and started to fund Sunni militant groups outside Saudi Arabia. It's no coincidence that it was at that time Islamic terrorism around the world started to rise and places like Pakistan started going downhill.

I really don't see any positive outcome for the US and UK supporting the Assad regime. It sucks that it was a hotbed for ISIS, but the precedent it would have set, and the bad blood it would have caused, would not have been worth it.

Staying out of it (for the most part) was the smartest strategy.

The US already set a precedent by continuing to back the Saudi and Bahraini governments after their violent suppression of democratic protests(in SA's case, they violently suppressed democratic protests in another nation, as well as their own).


Genocide? You need to look up the definition of genocide, the only genocide is in your head. More Shias have killed by Sunnis in Iraq than vice versa, Shias are being killed by Sunnis in huge numbers every month in Pakistan simply for being Shia(they aren't engaged in any political activities, they're being killed in mosques and social clubs), that's more of a genocide than whatever you've cooked up in your head.
 
Sigh.

I mean, it's not like this wasn't already suspected, the question is what will Western countries do about it? Will they continue to pretend that Saudi Arabia isn't one of the worst sponsors of terrorism and continue to pretend other countries in the region are the real problem?
 

Gilly

Member
Its so sad that we let them get away with this to if we don't "cut the head of the serpent" we will never defeat Islamic terrorism.
 

Alo0oy

Banned
Saudi is the biggest terrorist country in the world, this isn't surprising at all, when they came to invade Bahrain a lot of their supporters & government loyalists were holding Al-Qaeda flags.

I hope I live to see the day where those gulf despots fall. I'm 25, is there any chance of that happening in my lifetime?
 

Yagharek

Member
So who belongs in this civilized world of yours? The people who invaded Iraq in the first place? The same people who nuked Japan?

Maybe try a coherent argument. Uncivilised actions don't belong in this world. Hopefully Saudi Arabian political classes can change their behaviour.
 
As terrible as the Sauds are there are way worse people (the ones bankrolling ISIS) ready to take over. I can see no one taking over Saudi Arabia that would not be way worse.
Thats my point. Sauds as shitty as they are, hold a hardline against ANY group that is deemed a threat to the kingdom. Their allegience is first to the King, then to the country and then Sunni Islam. Meaning, every organized political group (Muslim Brotherhood, AQ, ISIS) is treated with iron fist inside the kingdom. The citizenry (not the government) is the one sponsoring the salafist doctrine to the world, and if they overthrow the Sauds, then WW3 is pretty much upon us all.
 

Alo0oy

Banned
As terrible as the Sauds are there are way worse people (the ones bankrolling ISIS) ready to take over. I can see no one taking over Saudi Arabia that would not be way worse.

It will always get worse before it gets better, maintaining the status quo is not the solution. Expecting an instant modern democracy after a dictator falls is not realistic at all. Right now women aren't allowed to drive there, what are you gonna tell those women? "It could be worse?"
 

ZiZ

Member
The Sunni/Shia conflict is far more political than it is about beliefs.

it would be more accurately described as Saudi Arabia vs Iran than Sunni vs Shia.

Saudis got worried after Iraq to the north allied with Iran, add to that the Iranian backed Houthi insurgency in Yemen to the south and they feel like they are being surrounded.

It's puzzling why Saudi Arabia isn't an international pariah state as north korea is. They cause more wars and human rights abuses than is acceptable in a civilised world.

Yeah, I remember when Saudi Arabia invaded Iraq, and Afghanistan. or when it started murdering people half way across the world with drones.
 
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