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Irrational Games shutting down, 2K takes over BioShock, KL in new 15 person DD studio

V

Vibranium

Banned
Yeah, I saw this coming to be honest. We'll see what direction Bioshock goes from here, even without Ken it could bring good things.

As for Levine himself, I'm really excited for the small team format he's got now, provided it isn't mobile. I could see them making projects not hampered by the AAA bloat.
 
O

Opiate

Member
NullPointer said:
Are costs really going up that much for next gen? Pachter was talking about this in a recent GameTrailers video and said that he heard costs were going up 10-15% short term, but could settle back into the realm of 360/PS3 era games once new processes were in place.

I mean, of course Pachter isn't the fount of ultimate truth, but one would think he'd at least know about costs.
Click to expand...

I can't say with certainty, but would point out that this is exactly what people suggested would happen in the PS3/360 generation; sure, they said, costs are jumping now, but as we get used to using engines and grow accustomed to HD development, costs will settle down.

That didn't happen. Costs continued to go up and up, even inside the PS3/360 generation, by significant amounts. It doesn't mean Pachter is definitely wrong. Maybe this time is different. I'm just saying we've danced to this tune before.
 
T

TetraGenesis

Member
eyeball_kid said:
Cogs of War...I mean...The Order:1886 says hello.

I have a feeling more people than just Kevin Levine were fed up with Bioshock; Infinite sounded like a very painful project and the result is something that I'm not sure Levine is real proud of.

I do think this is a good move. However if Kevin is going to focus on narrative, I do hope he hires a better writing staff.

Alternately, he could always change his name to Kevin Devine and produce a series of games based on John Waters films.
Click to expand...

Well, first off, "Cogs of War" is a really dumb nickname for The Order and not nearly as witty as you think it is, and secondly, it's Ken not Kevin.

Although I agree with your sentiment.
 
LQX

LQX

Member
Why close down a studio and start a new one within the company with the same people? This all just seem so fucking odd.
 
N

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
Opiate said:
I can't say with certainty, but would point out that this is exactly what people suggested would happen in the PS3/360 generation; sure, costs are jumping now, but as we get used to using engines and so forth, costs will settle down.

They didn't. Costs continued to go up and up. It doesn't mean Pachter is wrong. Maybe this time is different. I'm just saying we've danced to this tune before.
Click to expand...

I think the thing also worth noting is that costs went up significantly even without a generation shift simply because expectations kept rising, so there's not much reason to believe that costs won't change as standards keep going up.

I mean these days every blockbuster movie costs $200 million because it's just accepted now that it takes $200 million to make a blockbuster.
 
Haunted

Haunted

Member
I'm curious to see how much of this is window-dressing by Levine, but having him re-focused on design with a small core team is going to be exciting times.

Always sucks when people (especially the talented ones at Irrational) are losing their jobs, best of luck to everyone involved getting back on your feet!
 
S

spekkeh

Banned
I feel sorry for his team, who must've felt that they were finally part of something really successful and then get shafted for no real reason.

But looking at Bioshock Infinite, which was a great concept trapped in a terribly trite game, I must say I'm excited to see what Levine can do freed from the shackles of AAA.
 
V

Vizzeh

Banned
Curious now, if cliffy B was correct and under the current model the AAA is unsustainable. The 6 year developement is surely unacceptable for bioshock inf but I think the industry needs to look at itself, be it digital games, cutting out the retail middleman and increasing profit whilst also removing those used games that water down the market.

We cant just keep taking and expect the same level of quality, some devs can perhaps do it on strict budget but perhaps we can meet in the middle, digital and steam-like sales with no used games whilst the corporate greed sorts its shit out. This infustry does seem to have alot of room to grow but there's so much grey areas.

Hopefully GDC will shed light on how game devs can be profitable for AAA and come up with a better model, not f2p..

Cliffy B, don't wanna see a told you so tweet.
 
N

Nirolak

Mrgrgr
LQX said:
Why close down a studio and start a new one within the company with the same people? This all just seem so fucking odd.
Click to expand...

Take-Two is shutting down on their most prized studios so they're trying to roll this out with the most positive sounding face they can put on it and shifting as much of the blame on to Ken and "creative decisions" as possible.

If this was a less notable studio they'd simply have just confirmed the layoffs like they normally do.
 
G

gundamkyoukai

Member
Opiate said:
I can't say with certainty, but would point out that this is exactly what people suggested would happen in the PS3/360 generation; sure, they said, costs are jumping now, but as we get used to using engines and grow accustomed to HD development, costs will settle down.

That didn't happen. Costs continued to go up and up, even inside the PS3/360 generation, by significant amounts. It doesn't mean Pachter is definitely wrong. Maybe this time is different. I'm just saying we've danced to this tune before.
Click to expand...

Well few things different this time like platforms being more like each other which saves porting cost .
More studios using there own internal engine which can save cost in the long term .
Along with other factors like DD which might help upset some of the cost .
Maybe things will end up more of the same guess it to early to tell.
 
E

eyeball_kid

Member
TetraGenesis said:
Well, first off, "Cogs of War" is a really dumb nickname for The Order and not nearly as witty as you think it is, and secondly, it's Ken not Kevin.

Although I agree with your sentiment.
Click to expand...

Sorry, Kevin.

Anyway, I'm interested to see what type of game Levine is thinking about -- I mean I'd be shocked if he introduced another FPS -- but it sounds like he will be in the design dungeon for quite a while.

As an aside, I think he's handling the shutdown in top form in regards to the employees he's laying off, or at least doing as much as he can for them.
 
entremet

entremet

Member
Vizzeh said:
Curious now, if cliffy B was correct and under the current model the AAA is unsustainable. The 6 year developement is surely unacceptable for bioshock inf but I think the industry needs to look at itself, be it digital games, cutting out the retail middleman and increasing profit whilst also removing those used games that water down the market.

We cant just keep taking and expect the same level of quality, some devs can perhaps do it on strict budget but perhaps we can meet in the middle, digital and steam-like sales with no used games whilst the corporate greed sorts its shit out. This infustry does seem to have alot of room to grow but there's so much grey areas.

Hopefully GDC will shed light on how game devs can be profitable for AAA and come up with a better model, not f2p..

Cliffy B, don't wanna see a told you so tweet.
Click to expand...

It's already been proven that AAA is not sustainable but for specific cash rich publishers.
 
B

Biker19

Banned
entrement said:
It's already been proven that AAA is not sustainable but for specific cash rich publishers.
Click to expand...

Exactly. Now you guys see why I said this earlier (especially on the first sentence & on the last paragraph).

The bubble of the AAA gaming market is about to burst wide open. Even more so this gen.
 
R

rataven

Member
I feel for those losing their jobs. I'd imagine working for Irrational and Ken would have been something of a dream job for many of them. It must be hard to be forced out of a company and work you enjoy.

All the best to Ken though. He sounds genuinely excited about what he has planned, and seeing what he comes up with will certainly be something to look forward too.
 
E

Exis

Member
Irrational is one of a few developers that I have bought every one of their titles.

I hope Shane lands on his feet- Irrational behavior was a wonderful look into the development of Infinite and it was great to hear what that team had been working on.
 
S

sflufan

Banned
Char Aznable said:
this is madness ...
Click to expand...

Actually it's quite the opposite - it's a perfectly "rational" decision from a financial standpoint.

What was "irrational" was not pulling the plug on Infinite once it became readily apparent that the costs the game was incurring were simply not going to generate an acceptable ROI.
 
O

Opiate

Member
animlboogy said:
Exactly. Ken is notorious for being tough to work with, but why would 2K dump all that talent if they didn't want to? Ken doesn't get up one morning and fire 230 people at a studio he doesn't even own.

This is a sugarcoated studio closing. But a lot of posters here seem to prefer to build some gossip column level narrative about Levine changing directions on a whim and killing a couple hundred jobs just because.
Click to expand...

I would guess people prefer an elaborate, artistic narrative because the reality is that this is an economic decision, and economic decisions have the prestige of being simultaneously boring and super depressing.
 
E

Eusis

Member
Opiate said:
I can't say with certainty, but would point out that this is exactly what people suggested would happen in the PS3/360 generation; sure, they said, costs are jumping now, but as we get used to using engines and grow accustomed to HD development, costs will settle down.

That didn't happen. Costs continued to go up and up, even inside the PS3/360 generation, by significant amounts. It doesn't mean Pachter is definitely wrong. Maybe this time is different. I'm just saying we've danced to this tune before.
Click to expand...
Admittedly I think this was the same thing suspected for the PS2/GC/Xbox... and while initially it was more expensive once we were a few years in we were seeing plenty of smaller and medium ranged games successfully being made.

Hell, it may've happened this gen too had it not been for the economic crash, though I also imagine other factors like Japan mainly moving to handhelds didn't help.
sflufan said:
Actually it's quite the opposite - it's a perfectly "rational" decision from a financial standpoint.

What was "irrational" was not pulling the plug on Infinite once it became readily apparent that the costs the game was incurring were simply not going to generate an acceptable ROI.
Click to expand...
Rock and a hard place. You either cut your losses and can it, or just go with it since you already sunk that much in and hope you get something back for it.
 
T

The Dutch Slayer

Member
Just to much upkeep I reckon, its sad really really sad.

One of the few truly game and detail orientated devs out there I can only think of Valve and Remedy who are pushing the envelope anymore.

Its a sad day for the entire "core" gaming audience.
 
E

esterk

Member
I thought bioshock did very well, despite the issues in development. This is surprising news, but I'm glad KL has the option to do this and 2K isn't keeping an iron grip on the developer for name pedigree alone.

Good luck to those who will be laid off though :(
 
B

Balphon

Member
That sucks. Hopefully their former employees find new jobs with other 2K studios or elsewhere soon; there was a lot of talent at that studio.
 
L

LuchaShaq

Banned
Personally besides the loss of jobs I have no problem with the dwindling AAA market.

Almost my entire top ten list last year were not 60$ games besides nba2j14 and ac4
 
J

jond76

Banned
Seems like there would have been a better way to word it other than "I feel like working on smaller projects, you're all fired." Seems petty.
 
W

WhiskeyKnight

Member
animlboogy said:
This is a sugarcoated studio closing. But a lot of posters here seem to prefer to build some gossip column level narrative about Levine changing directions on a whim and killing a couple hundred jobs just because.
Click to expand...

But why would 2K close one of their most prestigious and successful studios? Bioshock has been insanely successful for them.
 
entremet

entremet

Member
animlboogy said:
Frankly, the AAA model has problems that go beyond how crappy the actual games often are and how much they cost. Think about the staff. The model DEPENDS on turning up hiring like crazy, then giving the gift of mass layoffs at the end of the dev cycle. This is just not a good situation for anybody except guys on the publishing end.
Click to expand...

The problem is the ''thirst'' that gamers have for bigger and better experiences. Look at a lot of the sentiment on this board, we're already mentioning droughts and such. Also although the PS4 is positioning itself as an indie machine, I'm sure many PS4 gamers won't be happy with only indie experiences.
 
O

Opiate

Member
WhiskeyKnight said:
But why would 2K close one of their most prestigious and successful studios? Bioshock has been insanely successful for them.
Click to expand...

Evidently it hasn't. And if it were, 2k wouldn't allow Ken Levine to simply fire 230 people because he felt like it.

I think many people just aren't adjusting what "successful AAA game" means in the modern world, and particularly so for AAA games with development hiccups like Infinite had. You probably hear things like "it sold 4 million copies" and think that's great. How could that not be great? I am suggesting that it's time to readjust that frame of reference.
 
G

gundamkyoukai

Member
Opiate said:
Evidently it hasn't. And if it were, 2k wouldn't allow Ken Levine to simply fire 230 people because he felt like it.

I think many people just aren't adjusting what "successful AAA game" means in the modern world, and particularly so for AAA games with development hiccups like Infinite had. You probably hear things like "it sold 4 million copies" and think that's great. How could that not be great? I am suggesting that it's time to readjust that frame of reference.
Click to expand...

I agree they are not reading the full story behind the game sales for the studio\ company
 
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