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[ShogunDarius]

Is 4K the best way to use the power of Scorpio and PS4K Neo? Digital Foundry isn't convinced
https://t.co/AKi7xBcNLQ

https://twitter.com/eurogamer/status/744096565418156032


Title taken from Eurogamers tweet rather than article


here;s a small section of the big article

The bottom line is this: both Sony and Microsoft are effectively selling us the status quo in terms of gameplay, the idea being that they can create a two-tier market - existing console hardware caters for those with 1080p displays while the new machines are best experienced paired with a 4K UHD screen. But fundamentally, it's the same software, and in order to ensure that owners of existing systems are "not left behind", the chances are that they'll play much the same too. Indeed, Sony's guidelines for developers actively prohibit game-makers from providing exclusive features for the Neo hardware.

Cards on the table here - I'm not entirely sure that this is the best way forward, but I am one of the few to have had a preview of this kind of next-gen experience - and I was blown away. At the recent Nvidia GeForce GTX 1080 launch, I played Rise of the Tomb Raider at native 4K with HDR enabled and with quality settings that, while not quite maxed, easily out-strip the Xbox One version. Aside from what looked like a wobbly 35-40fps (something easily fixed) the experience was simply magnificent. Improved effects, higher detail texture work, brilliantly vivid colour - this was the best Rise of the Tomb Raider experience it's possible to have, and compared to the existing console version, there was undoubtedly a 'next-gen' feel about it.

But the bottom line is that the full impact of this experience depends on ownership of a top-tier display that currently costs a lot of money. Stripped of HDR and its immense detail level, this demo would not translate particularly well when downsampled to a standard 1080p screen. And that's the display hardware that the vast majority of these new machines are likely to end up connected to. In this scenario, all you'd get is improved anti-aliasing, while other features - like the higher detail textures - tend to blur away in the downscale. This is exactly the point made by Phil Spencer, when he told Giant Bomb that Scorpio games would "look different" and "run a little better" when paired with 1080p displays, and presumably why he told Wesley Yin-Poole to stick with Xbox One if you aren't 4K-enabled.

any one other section

According to the Steam hardware survey, 95 per cent of PC gamers are using 1080p or lower resolution screens. 1440p and 4K displays barely register, neither failing to hit even one per cent of the audience. 4K may well gain more traction in the living room, but the inescapable conclusion from the PC market is that the majority of gamers simply don't care about higher resolution screens. And with that in mind, the RX 480 is AMD's audacious play at targeting the mainstream PC gamer - and there is some irony that the same core technology is fuelling Sony's 4K aspirations.

There a lot more through the link http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/d...t-use-for-playstation-neo-and-project-scorpio




My take is Neo should go for stable 1080p 60FPS, and Scorpio should do 1440p downsampled to 1080P at a solid 60FPS

 

[Bitch Pudding]

Me too (being unconvinced), "just" bumping everthing up to 4k won't do the trick, both need some extra effects to improve graphics fidelity. That said, PS4k hasn't enough beef for 4k rendering in the first place...

 

[RS4-]

I don't really have much confidence in them hitting even a stable 30 @ 4k.

 

[ShogunDarius]

I don't really have much confidence in them hitting even a stable 30 @ 4k.

that's part of the reason why I think they need to be more conservative 2K downsampled at 60FPS is still going to be a great experience

 

[Spider_Jerusalem]

I don't think we'll see many 4K games anyway. PS Neo won't have the power to do it, while with Scorpio developers have freedom of choice on how to use the power, and I doubt many will be willing to dedicate all the power to 4K rendering. I can see first party games pushing for 4K, but not many others.

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

Nope. It's largely out of the question for Neo and borderline for the Scorpio.

I'm sure the OS will be native 4K, most / all indies will be 4K and some exclusives will be (FM7 etc). Beyond that most AAA games will likely support 1080p+ with graphical improvements.

The Scorpio would need to be ~8TF GPU / Zen CPU / Higher Bandwidth to have any real chance of running 4K properly across the board. (with a reasonable graphics bump too)

It will still have it's merits though, and will lay the groundwork for the true next gen machines of PS5 and Xbox 4.

 

[Kyoufu]

It's time they start giving us options on how we want to play the games. I'd go for 1080p 60fps over 4K 30fps 99% of the time, personally.

 

[thenameDS]

IMO no, 4K is just a buzzword for now. These specs should be used for locked 1080p/60

 

[clem84]

IMO, 1080p already steps into "diminishing returns" territory. On standard sized TVs, 4K will be barely noticeable. On a huge screen it could make a difference.

I'm not against the existence of Scorpio or Neo, but the power should be used for something else.

 

[Faustek]

Haven't Sony stated that their new machine won't be enough for 4k gaming?
Anyway I seriously doubt we'll see any of that. At least I seriously doubt it.
Same goes for Microsoft's Scorpio. If anyone will come out with a 4k game it will have to Microsoft themselves. That isn't cheap ya know. That isn't easy. It'll take time.

Also I'm not sure I want the industry to even try, yet. I have already come to terms that the AAA bullshit is here to stay, killing of smaller B-A production games. I don't want to kill that segment completely.

 

[dragonelite]

Really hope Microsoft can show 4k@60fps with forza 7 and halo 6 next year.

 

[ValeYard]

I was thinking about posting a thread about this.

We seem to be at a bifurcation in console philosophy: resolution vs. framerate.

Over this gen, I think most console users have become aware that fps impacts the feel of a game much more than the ephemeral amount of extra pixels on the screen. On the other hand, console makers are used to a symbiosis with tv development and matching the highest res possible.

I think driving for 4K, even with 6 teraflops, is too early, even though 4K TVs are becoming cheaper. Even so, good 4K TVs with low latency are much more expensive. Add suboptimal framerates due to 4K , and even for me as someone who prefers consoles, I start looking at PC builds.

I wish they'd just put a good scaler in for 4K and have the console do 1080p@60.

 

[JP]

This is pretty much how I feel at the moment.

Even with the technology in the new consoles, it's just not going to be enough to really benefit from 4K in the highend games. I'd absolutely love the new consoles to conventrate on doing more with a rock solid 1080p image. Sort out the frame rates and improve what the game is doing with that resolution.

Don't get me wrong, 4K will be fantastic moving forward when there is headroom to do that but it just seems to be far too much of a sacrifice to do that in the new machines.

 

[ghst]

don't mind it to be honest. my next monitor is going to be 144hz/1440p. if consoles are aiming for 30fps @ "4k" then that should work out nicely.

 

[R3TRODYCE]

They should target 1440p.

4K with decent performance and not a bunch of downgrades just to hit 4K doesn't seem possible with those specs.

 

[cebri.one]

As he says, 360 and PS3 were supposed to be at least HDready. We'll get 1080p games with better graphics at 30/60 fps.

 

[a.wd]

Well I'm getting a 4k HDR telly soon so I'll be glad they're going to be moving this way.

If the neo is amazing and delivers in 4k then that's an instabuy,but if they are going to get an upgraded version I may hold out for that, Scorpio is looking like it's amazing so can't wait to see what they release with that.

Hell I might even get the 1S to tide me over all my games are on an external hard drive, so super simple upgrading.

 

[ShogunDarius]

Really hope Microsoft can show 4k@60fps with forza 7 and halo 6 next year.

4K at 30FPS maybe, at 60? Even a 1080 GFX card out right now would struggle with that, so that aint happening with the scorpio unless they delay it into 2018/19 and make it far more powerful

 

[Liamario]

No. It really isn't. It's a total waste. There's little demand for it too.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Hasn't Richard Leadbetter already said that the Neo dev docs advise devs about how to go about upscaling games?

Microsoft are in a bit of a trickier situation after their Scorpio video. Phrases like "4K at 60FPS" and "uncompressed pixels" will probably come back to bite them.

 

[ShogunDarius]

Hasn't Richard Leadbetter already said that the Neo dev docs advise devs about how to go about upscaling games?

Microsoft are in a bit of a trickier situation after their Scorpio video. Phrases like "4K at 60FPS" and "uncompressed pixels" will probably come back to bite them.

If an overclocked 1080 now cant do stable 60 fps at 4k and in some games barely 30, I dont see how he intends to do that unless he intends to put a overclocked 1180 in every scorpio and sell the console for $700+. Also imagine either the size of the console or the overheating that could occur.

 

[SeeNoWeevil]

wobbly 35-40fps

simply magnificent.

No.

 

[Stider]

Well based on the specs for both machines and looking at benchmarks for the GTX1080(which is substantially more powerful), neither machine is going to do 4k for AAA games with high graphics settings that well I feel.

 

[jet1911]

Hasn't Richard Leadbetter already said that the Neo dev docs advise devs about how to go about upscaling games?

Microsoft are in a bit of a trickier situation after their Scorpio video. Phrases like "4K at 60FPS" and "uncompressed pixels" will probably come back to bite them.

I'm pretty sure no one said that?

 

[jett]

No, no it's not.

Devs should be using that power for higher framerates.

 

[RoKKeR]

Yeah, I am unconvinced as well, and am further unconvinced that the Scorpio will be able to play even today's games at 4K without sacrificing quality. (just look at the example with Tomb Raider in this article)

I wonder if they will opt to implement more instances of dynamic resolution in their game, and perhaps target resolutions underneath 4K that still look great on 4K sets.

I understand what Phil is talking about with 4K being an "inflection" point, and it makes sense for them to look at how best to allow console gamers in on what will quickly become the new standard for displays... I'm just not sure the power/price is there yet.

 

[pottuvoi]

My bet is with MSAA trick and TAA resolve methods to get edge resolution to full 4k while shading is around 1080p.
With gaussian AA resolve the stable resolution is around 1080p on 4k image.

 

[iMax]

I do see what Microsoft's trying to do here. You can see it in their messaging, plain as day, what their intentions are. They want to lead the charge on 4K gaming.

The only way to do that is by really encouraging developers hard to use 4K resolutions.

They didn't do that on Xbox 360, which was a 720p/1080i console at launch—most games rendering between 500-640p. And they haven't done it on Xbox One either, where most games are 720-900p.

Both the Xbox 360 and the Xbox One obviously support 1080p but this comes at the expense at other aspects of the visual output. By trying to focus on the 4K resolution above all else, they're able to kickstart that shift and hopefully accelerate 4K adoption.

 

[Renekton]

Question! Which do you prefer?

• 4K Medium
• 1080p Ultra

 

[DevilFox]

4k is madness right now, from almost every point of view.
They should target 1080p or 1440p at best. 4k play of media is fine, but no gaming.
Hopefully MS and Sony will not be that stupid to fight on the resolution front again because it's not going to have advantages for us whatsoever.

 

[Oriel]

What is the point of all this? Both Neo and Scorpio will struggle to produce 4k as it is. Would it not make nore sense to have hardware that can comfortably do 1080/60 instead?

 

[Bitch Pudding]

Hasn't Richard Leadbetter already said that the Neo dev docs advise devs about how to go about upscaling games?

Microsoft are in a bit of a trickier situation after their Scorpio video. Phrases like "4K at 60FPS" and "uncompressed pixels" will probably come back to bite them.

They have another puzzle to solve: Going all in on 4k rendering, which naturally limits additonal effects compared to "standard" XBOX games, or going all in on details, better textures and staff and upscale everything to 4k instead. Now here's why that's a puzzle for them: Games on PS4k (Neo mode) will with almost absolute certainty go for enhanced graphics fidelity instead of (native) 4k.

Hence, most people will think that this version of a game, or the PS4 Neo games in general, are far better looking compared to those uprendered XBOX One games the Scorpio delivers. Let me get this clear, I have no doubt Scorpio is powerful enough to render 4k XBOX One games. But I doubt it's powerful enough to render significantly enhanced XBOX Scorpio games in 4k.

 

[pottuvoi]

Question! Which do you prefer?

• 4K Medium
• 1080p Ultra

4k output reconstructed from 1080p ultra.

 

[Breesus Christ]

All I want is a full 1080p and with rock solid 60fps and graphic fidelity cranked all the way up. That would get me really pumped for NEO. 4KUHD drive wouldn't hurt too!

 

[Boss Mog]

It isn't and if that's all it's gonna do for me then I won't be getting either of them. I only care about using the extra horsepower to get 60fps at 1080p in all games period.

 

[golem]

IMO, 1080p already steps into "diminishing returns" territory. On standard sized TVs, 4K will be barely noticeable. On a huge screen it could make a difference.

No. Movies not so much, but games look spectacular in 4K.

I would prefer 60fps over resolution however.

 

[Gunmonkey36]

4K may well gain more traction in the living room, but the inescapable conclusion from the PC market is that the majority of gamers simply don't care about higher resolution screens.

Or maybe the technology is too expensive for people to find the value/cost ratio acceptable?

PC gamers will gladly go to 4k whenever the majority of the monitors are closer to the $250-300 range, and the required cards for them are likewise in that midrange price point.

The large majority of people simply are not going to be buying the $600+ enthusiast graphics cards needed for decent 4k gaming along with $400+ monitors.

Kind of a blanket statement for them to say people don't care about 4k.

 

[Shambalakan]

On a limited hardware, I prefer "1080p/60fps" or "1080p/30fps + amazing graphics, physics, AI" to "4K/30fps + medium graphics".

 

[LewieP]

Lead Renderer Programmer at id has he same opinion.

It would be such a waste of the power.

Imagine quadrupling the power of the Xbox One and still not hitting 60fps on lots of games.

Does sound like that's the direction MS want to go, likely with the same kind of dynamic resolution scaling they are often using today.

 

[mike4001_]

I don't really have much confidence in them hitting even a stable 30 @ 4k.

But you also cannot really compare PC TFlops to Console TFlops.

Consoles were alway able to achieve more with lower power.

 

[GribbleGrunger]

1080p/60fps with all the bells and whistles it what I want.

 

[Finaika]

They should target 1440p.

4K with decent performance and not a bunch of downgrades just to hit 4K doesn't seem possible with those specs.

Are there any 1440p TVs?

 

[iMax]

Chances are, Halo 6 is going to be a launch title for Scorpio, if not, 2018.

I wonder what they'll do... abandon their 60fps principles they've built over the last several years, contradict their Scorpio messaging by maintaining 1080p, or deliver a visually underwhelming product at 2160p/60.

 

[Papilloma]

I'm pretty sure no one said that?

This is true, they talked about 60Hz gaming, and 4k gaming, but not both together.

 

[Darkstorne]

It's time they start giving us options on how we want to play the games. I'd go for 1080p 60fps over 4K 30fps 99% of the time, personally.

So much this. Especially with AA techniques like Uncharted 4. I'm absolutely fine with that image quality. And I really don't think console gamers are going to be stressed and out of their depth when faced with a limited options graphics menu. Devs could literally just make it a resolution choice and switch on/off various post processing effects automagically.

1080p = 60fps, Ultra settings.
1440p = 60fps, High settings.
4k = 30fps, High settings.

Or some variation on that. Just provide a few different, simple choices, to appeal to lovers of both visuals and performance.

 

[RoKKeR]

Chances are, Halo 6 is going to be a launch title for Scorpio, if not, 2018.

I wonder what they'll do... abandon their 60fps principles they've built over the last several years, contradict their Scorpio messaging by maintaining 1080p, or deliver a visually underwhelming product at 2160p/60.

I'm expecting a spinoff title... maybe something in a different genre, and maybe even something that lets them target 4k/30fps as a launch title.

Additionally, though they are clearly gunning hard for 4K, Phil has stated that there won't be a 4K mandate. I imagine that in the coming months as discussion and development continues, these things will be brought up often.

Edit: +1 to the idea of graphical options. Especially with Scorpio looking more and more like a PC that runs Xbox platform software, allowing us to choose what kind of performance we want would be really amazing. It's not a perfect solution, however; multiplayer games and even some co-op games should have the same performance in order to maintain a consistent experience.

 

[clem84]

Are there any 1440p TVs?

Is it my understanding that you can scale just about any resolution, a little like some games now are programmed in 900p to get a more stable framerate.

I agree about the 1440p resolution. It would be a good compromise.

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

Just having all the indies in true 4K will be nice enough though. Imagine playing Ori 2 and Below on a big 4K HDR TV <3

In the end I expect the Scorpio to be ~50% 4K content and ~50% upscaled plus graphics bells and whistles.

With the Neo having more of a 25% / 75% split. I think that's a fair guidline on how all this will ultimately pan out.

Both systems will end up with the same looking games only with the Scorpio versions in various higher resolutions. Similar to the delta we have today, only reversed and on a different scale.

 

[LelouchZero]

They could make games that look mind-blowing at 1080p on the Scorpio and Neo.

 

[Maximilian Kolbe]

I'm pretty sure even a console can do 4k 60fps, some developer will still do something like make native res higher or add some pointless effect to make it only able to do 30fps, because there are developers that think their game doesn't need 60fps.