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Is Capcom's Panta Rhei engine causing them notable issues?
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
DoDonGouki
Member
To me that one stuck out in a different way (Square Enix's inability to ship things potentially wearing down employees) more than problems for the technology itself.
Like Capcom actually had a very frequent output rate of games, often including ones that were notably technologically ambitious. Square Enix hasn't in ages, so there's way too many confounding factors for me to point at the technology as a question, especially if they're not making direct statements about it.
Similarly KojiPro is taking forever to ship MGS V, but that pretty clearly seems to just be them having issues scaling up to the size they need to be to make a super gigantic open world game. The things they are shipping on Fox Engine seem fine and the process they detailed in presentations seems suitable.
I remember that you mentioned this quite a while back; there must have been evidence of this for quite a while. I wonder if they wouldn't be better off sticking to MT Framework. Or, hell, moving to Unreal.
That said, wouldn't the main issue here be that this engine may be turning into a money pit? I'm assuming that their game development staff isn't the same as those that design their engines. There's nothing really preventing from continuing to develop games on MT Framework, beyond talent loss, tying up their development staff in big-budget bombs, and other unrelated issues.
That said, wouldn't the main issue here be that this engine may be turning into a money pit? I'm assuming that their game development staff isn't the same as those that design their engines. There's nothing really preventing from continuing to develop games on MT Framework, beyond talent loss, tying up their development staff in big-budget bombs, and other unrelated issues.
Well, my thought process is more along the lines of "If the engine is being used on Resident Evil 7, but is having an issue doing something like rendering a large open area sufficiently, this could be causing that project to take longer than Capcom wants it to."
Like Capcom talked a lot about 2.5 year development cycles and we've been getting quite a while past the point where sequels should have been announced for some of their games that haven't shown up.
Perhaps they just have a new marketing plan or decided to make a bunch of exceptions. But if we look at their public statements versus what they're showing, something doesn't seem to be lining up.
Now, if Capcom trots out the engine at CEDEC and sings its praises and/or announces a new game on it at TGS, my concerns were probably unfounded. However, I felt enough stacked up that this seemed like a potential avenue of trouble.
Like the rest of that interview linked in the OP is actually about how Panta Rhei is supposed to make everything vastly easier and more efficient to develop, yet we aren't seeing the results of that.
I think a second game announced before the lead up to next E3 isn't an overly-generous expectation.
But I also don't think Capcom is looking to diversify their large budget, in-house games in the same way they were early last gen.
Right, there is a potential for confounding factors in that they seem to have largely scaled down what they're actually releasing on consoles in the first place.
If a bunch of the games they canceled back in their cancellation wave were riskier projects built on Panta Rhei, that would explain a lack of output.
Man-is-Obsolete
Member
Well you're comparing the entire output of a publisher to a single studio...
Compare Capcom's output to EA, Ubisoft, or Activision.
Shogun1337
Junior Member
Don't really care
Fuck 'em
They should focus less on trying to be such graphic-hogs and get back to focusing on the games. Valve doesn't go out of their way to create ridiculous, new-tier technology. Capcom used to be just as creative.
Fuck 'em
They should focus less on trying to be such graphic-hogs and get back to focusing on the games. Valve doesn't go out of their way to create ridiculous, new-tier technology. Capcom used to be just as creative.
PensivePen
Member
Capcom has pretty much always strived to be on the forefront of technology in the console space.
Seven Force
Banned
Kind of a shame, especially considering how much mileage they still seem to be getting from MT Framework. Probably would have been better off iterating on that at this point, assuming Panta Rhei is indeed facing development troubles.
Doesn't Driveclub use a full global illumination solution?
Okay, I see what you're saying. Not going to dig this out myself right now, but I'd like to see a list of Capcom internally-developed games by year. If we could put Panta Rhei on that timeline, it would be telling. I think Dragon's Dogma and Resident Evil 6 beginning development should go on there too. The former in particular was another albatross.
CrimsonCrescendo
Banned
Cancellation wave?
They had this at one point: http://www.capcom.co.jp/ir/english/data/pdf/explanation/2012/full/explanation_2012_full_01.pdf
If they have any tech papers on it, I can try and find out what it is in specific.
Clear
CliffyB's Cock Holster
To be fair to Capcom, they've never been invested to the same extent in the multi-platform annualized franchise conveyer-belt that those 3 publishers have.
My choice of example was dictated more by comparable product type than anything else. To be plain why expect another Dragon's Dogma when there's no Skyrim sequel - both had similar scope and were released roughly 3 months apart.
That being said, I kind of regret using Bethesda and not their parent publisher Zenimax, seeing as thanks to their ownership of Idtech5, they are also in the bespoke engine business.
Yeah WUT. Capcom are aesthetics developers first and foremost.
Man-is-Obsolete
Member
I can understand the annualized thing but even then all three of those publishers have or will have released a new IP in the first year.
id is actually kind of an interesting example though.
id was renowned for bespoke, industry leading engines and powering a giant sea of games.
However with idtech5 they made some tech decisions that made things easier on artists (megatextures) that also made it, in John Carmack's own words, incompatible with things like open world games.
Toward that end we even see studios like Arkane Austin and Battlecry using CryEngine instead.
My proposal here is actually similar. That some of the technical choices they made that had big wins (no prebaked lighting via SCVGI, which looks very nice and completely removes baking time for faster content iteration) doesn't work well for larger areas on current hardware and is causing them issues with certain types of games they make. For example, something that currently struggles with large open areas would be rather hard to make Dragon's Dogma 2 on.
Now, by that I don't mean that this is some unsalvageable engine or even necessarily bad. It could actually be quite good and all they need is some extra time to build in alternate tech solutions like a different lighting system for various genres or a different fluid dynamics system. However, if their game stack is getting held up on that front I would still consider it "in bad shape, or at least somewhat problematic" currently even if it went on to do super well later.
Alcoholikaust
Member
For Capcom to initially have the incredible MT Framework (seriously, between Devil May Cry 4, Resident Evil 5, Marvel vs. Capcom 3, Lost Planet, Dead Rising, that engine was flexible as hell and performed well) only to potentially be stuck in limbo making the successor engine would be one of the more amazing cosmic ironies of the gaming industry.
I'm sorry are we talking about the same Valve that revealed the mindblowing Source engine that was ahead (and in many cases still is) of its time in animation and facial animations?
Pretty interesting to see Capcom go from MT Framework and announcing (and releasing) titles left and right that all played and looked fantastic (from a technical perspective) and now all we have is Deep Down that has been MIA and Revelations 2 that is cross gen.
EDIT: Also going by Capcoms comments on shorter dev times we should have already heard about Resident Evil 7, New DMC, some dead rising spin-off and new IP by now.
Shogun1337
Junior Member
Yes, and Valve's taken a chill-pill since then. They don't try to create new engine after engine after engine. Seems to be a japanese developer issue, like Square-Enix had with that stupid Crystal Tools (are they still on the Luminous Engine right now? I sure hope so).
Who's leading Capcom now? How's their talent pool look, both creative and tech wise?
I think the simple answer is the same with a lot of publishers and devs in Japan: they bailed on HD transition era, focused on mobile that has caught up to PS2/Xbox era, and have a severe lack of talent to draw from in navigating modern AAA game design. They never nurtured and built up the next gen workforce they need, and are now playing catch up. Sadly, they've also fallen on bad time from mismanagement and sort of can't afford these problems. Outsourcing to eastern Europe and trying to Westernize games without understanding western culture or the appeal of their eastern gamez was also a big issue.
The quality of RE as a game aside, was their tech in those games really that impressive? I mean as far as I remember they were still using precanned animation systems without transitions that couldn't be interrupted. They also all had preformance issues as well. Closed enviorments, baked lighting, stiff controls.
Personally I think its the same symptoms effecting others that are too big to move quickly. People are joking now that Konami should just change its name to Kojima and be done with it.
Same idea. There's a leadership issues and talent issue that needs to be addressed, that probably directly related to any development issues now.
I think the simple answer is the same with a lot of publishers and devs in Japan: they bailed on HD transition era, focused on mobile that has caught up to PS2/Xbox era, and have a severe lack of talent to draw from in navigating modern AAA game design. They never nurtured and built up the next gen workforce they need, and are now playing catch up. Sadly, they've also fallen on bad time from mismanagement and sort of can't afford these problems. Outsourcing to eastern Europe and trying to Westernize games without understanding western culture or the appeal of their eastern gamez was also a big issue.
The quality of RE as a game aside, was their tech in those games really that impressive? I mean as far as I remember they were still using precanned animation systems without transitions that couldn't be interrupted. They also all had preformance issues as well. Closed enviorments, baked lighting, stiff controls.
Personally I think its the same symptoms effecting others that are too big to move quickly. People are joking now that Konami should just change its name to Kojima and be done with it.
Same idea. There's a leadership issues and talent issue that needs to be addressed, that probably directly related to any development issues now.
SkylineRKR
Member
I think this engine is in deep shit. Revelations 2 is cross-gen so PR is pretty much ruled out. Dead Rising 3 etc ran on different engines as well.
Its weird because this gen should be easier to adapt to than the previous one, yet Capcom was actually the most profilic Japanese developer during the early 360 run thanks to their MT Framework engine.
Its weird because this gen should be easier to adapt to than the previous one, yet Capcom was actually the most profilic Japanese developer during the early 360 run thanks to their MT Framework engine.
Haunted
Member
Capcom has had some extremely high profile departures during the last generation. Probably more than any other company that's still around. So many of their creative leads and senior producers have gone.
Inafune, Kamiya, Mikami, Inaba, Tsuyoshi & Funamizu (producers of the first Monster Hunter). And of course all the developers each took with them when they left to form other studios.
There aren't many recognisable names left at the company: Ono (SF producer), Takeuchi (took over RE), Tsujimoto (MH producer). I firmly believe the talent drain has had a big impact on the company.
It wouldn't surprise me. Capcom seems like a total shitshow these days, so getting a new engine into a workable state is probably beyond them (Even with the help Sony were seemingly giving them in creating it).
Should have just gone for an upgraded MTFW engine this gen.
Deep Down the release schedule it goes
Should have just gone for an upgraded MTFW engine this gen.
Deep Down the release schedule it goes
Itsuno? Niitsuma? Kobayashi? Eshiro?
There are still people there that know how to make/direct games, if Capcom actually utilized them correctly.
They still have Itsuno, at least.
You know, it really is a bit of a stretch that their new engine is responsible, but you know what? I believe it.
They also said something like it would be used for all high end projects like the new RE.
Could the no news about RE have to do with the engine not working properly as well?
They also said something like it would be used for all high end projects like the new RE.
Could the no news about RE have to do with the engine not working properly as well?
Kresnik258
Member
Interesting read. Thanks!
There doesn't appear to be any tech articles, just a quote from the dev that GI was one of the decisions influencing them to choose 30fps. Guess we'll have to wait until after it releases for some tech analysis.
Glass Rebel
Member
Their comments definitely lead me to believe that the engine might be one of the reasons but not the only one. The recent proposed changes in game development, coupled with relative failures of RE6, DmC, Lost Planet 3 etc. might also play a role. REvelations 2 is probably a fairly low-budget effirt to tide people over until thy figure out what they want to do with the main series, for example.
Wishmaster92
Member
Why the hell is it even 60fps to begin with? Even since the original bullshot trailer was 30fps...
MrCunningham
Member
Yeah, it questions me why they decided to rebuild a new engine from scratch when MT Framework was clearly capable enough to be used on current gen consoles. An updated MT Framework could be their de facto engine.
What? Capcom's gotten massive mileage from MT framework and are now making a new engine to make full use of the next generation. We already know that Valve is finally laying Source to rest with a new engine that will most likely debut with L4D3.
Nobody is creating engine after engine.
Square enix made a shitty engine last generation and because of that they are ditching it with a new one that hopefully won't be as shitty. Even then they decided to make a full trilogy out of XIII to get some moneys worth out of that thing before ditching it.
My first thought, and it's especially strange given that MT Framework was so solid and proved to be so capable at running on different consoles and system.
Have there been any shifts or changes in their engineering department?
Edit: Read above and saw/recalled that there were quite a few developers that left. However, I guess that doesn't attest to who is on their 'engine' team and whether or not that has maintained a rather stable - er, stable?
I always admired Capcom's approach in the previous generation to get a solid engine going and then have it be able to perform on a variety of systems. I suppose the question is - what about this generation makes it more challenging than previous?
Astral Dog
Member
Wait,Revelations 2 is a thing? did they announced it yet?
And likely Phanta Rhei will cause some trouble as they adapt to next tech, i hope its just temporary man looking back,MT Framework was a damn good engine
And likely Phanta Rhei will cause some trouble as they adapt to next tech, i hope its just temporary man looking back,MT Framework was a damn good engine
Dictator93
Member
Given what we know about how high this engine scales (basically using SVOGI and real time fluid sims)... I would not doubt that they are having trouble getting it work well on PS4.
I mean.. most of the screens they released were NATIVE 720p. I think that says something.
I mean.. most of the screens they released were NATIVE 720p. I think that says something.
Jazzkokehead
Member
MT Framework was pretty much the most solid cross-platform engine last gen - it would be disappointing to see Capcom unable to live up the tech standards they established.
What engine did Dead Rising 3 run on? Was that simply MT Framework ported to the XBOX One, or something else entirely?
What engine did Dead Rising 3 run on? Was that simply MT Framework ported to the XBOX One, or something else entirely?
It leaked on xbox.com, so I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt, but it is not official yet, yes.
It's Capcom Vancouver's own engine. None of the Dead Rising titles that they've worked on have used MT Framework, as it has no English documentation.
SatelliteOfLove
Member
It's rather concerning people are still painting this issue with that broad brush, when the thread itself is signifigant for both what you posted and what Nirolak said in the OP.
*nod*
They did do a ton of restructuring with that new $40m Mobile Gulag building, and the "so it doesn't look like a PS3 game" comment is foreboding to me.
Relaxed Muscle
Member
If is given them so much issues, why not changed it to UE4/CE3 solution? If Epic realized it was not worth it months ago, Capcom, must have reached a similar conclussion then, even if the solution wasn't as complex...
It's actually plausible they have already, or just did something like having multiple solutions, and we just haven't heard about it.
If that was an issue though it may have added some months on to development which would help explain the dead silence.
I'm hoping they have a CEDEC presentation on Panta Rhei this year again so we can get an update on how things are going.