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[Bubba_Sparks]

I just started playing Destiny and hopefully they manage to salvage a solid story for the second installment. The core gameplay is fantastic, but I honestly have no clue who or why I am fighting these various alien races. Nor do I know what the Traveller is. The whole story is handled so poorly it is shocking.

 

[firehawk12]

The paid expansions killed a lot of interest in the game, so if they're smart, they'd switch to a games as service model and just add Overwatch-style loot boxes. People already buy lots of Destiny cosmetics, so the transition shouldn't be that awkward to move to that full time, so if they just keep the story going so that everyone has a reason to log in once a month, that should be enough to get people to stay engaged.

 

[josecitoxnyo]

Not sure if I remember correctly but I don't think he's said 2018 is happening. Just that the game hitting in September 2017 might be a stretch. Guess that means could be a November / December release or maybe he really did mean not this year at all.

I'm not sure Activision would allow them to miss 2017 though.

Neither Activision or the game itself can allow themselves another half baked game, they need to hit this from the start.

From all we know, all i'm getting we are getting yet another half baked concept that will improve along the way IF people are still interested in investing time in it.

 

[Nirolak]

No idea. Bungie's stock vesting schedule is tied to these game releases, so that would really suck for them. The extra year for D2 was bad enough already.

Activision would have a pretty horrific fiscal year as well given the direction Skylanders has went.

It's not clear to me that any Blizzard games (even expansions beyond the Hearthstone kind) are actually making it out next year, so they would basically have recurrent digital revenue from Blizzard/King/old CoDs and whatever Sledgehammer's game does.

 

[Forsaken82]

Try to picture just how difficult it is to write a story that resonates with people when:
1) You're working with hundreds of other developers
2) Your dev tools are slow and inefficient
3) You have to work within the limitations of characters, settings, mechanics, and villains that are created by other people
4) You have very specific time and dialogue constraints
5) You need to write something impactful, yet pithy enough that it can be played over and over again without players getting bored
6) You have to crunch
7) You have to deal with the bazillion other moving parts and variables that make up game development

I'm sure that sometimes bad storytelling is the product of poor imagination and a lack of talent, but usually, video game writers have to deal with impossible circumstances.

1, 2, 4, 6 and 7 have absolutely no correlation to storytelling in video games, they just represent typical game dev. 3 isn't a limitation on anything other than imagination. It isn't like the narrative team is writing a story independently of art, design and engineering tasks (in most cases, the narrative team and design team are one and the same). They are all (at least the discipline leads) very much involved in the story process. Hell, I know companies that even involved QA testers with their stories and dialogue because they understood the concept being developed.

And 5 IMO is completely irrelevant... After the first time through, no one gives a shit about the story and it is certainly not the reason people play a game like Destiny. They will keep playing it because the game play keeps bringing them back. Diablo 3 is a prime example of this.

 

[Gator86]

Try to picture just how difficult it is to write a story that resonates with people when:
1) You're working with hundreds of other developers
2) Your dev tools are slow and inefficient
3) You have to work within the limitations of characters, settings, mechanics, and villains that are created by other people
4) You have very specific time and dialogue constraints
5) You need to write something impactful, yet pithy enough that it can be played over and over again without players getting bored
6) You have to crunch
7) You have to deal with the bazillion other moving parts and variables that make up game development

I'm sure that sometimes bad storytelling is the product of poor imagination and a lack of talent, but usually, video game writers have to deal with impossible circumstances.

I never said it's on the writers specifically, but the final product was bad on release and even two years later, continues to be almost just as bad when Fillion isn't carrying the show. Whether it's the day to day talent, management, overall work structure, or some combination, it doesn't change the fact that they have put out nothing of quality from the story perspective even given their significant budget and manpower. Yeah, we all know video games are challenging, sometimes impossibly difficult products to make, but in the end, they're still products and Bungie has managed to pump out damn near $200 of "enh, I don't know, go shoot some space demons or something." No one should be satisfied with that.

 

[Obliterator]

Neither Activision or the game itself can allow themselves another half baked game, they need to hit this from the start.

From all we know, all i'm getting we are getting yet another half baked concept that will improve along the way IF people are still interested in investing time in it.

Destiny still has a giant user base. I don't think they have anything to worry about on that front to be frank at least in terms of launch. It's going to be one of the 5 biggest launches of this gen imo no matter what. Question will be if it sustains any sort of legs. I agree with you if it's half baked and poor it won't sustain itself like the first game did. There is more and more competition coming

 

[MR BLACKMAGIK]

If Destiny 2 is being built on a new engine, how difficult would it be for Bungie to reuse assets from Destiny 1? Would they have to build the game from the ground up?

On a side note: Fuck narrative. No one will be coming back to Destiny month after month because they added some cutscenes to their Live updates.

 

[Flipyap]

Try to picture just how difficult it is to write a story that resonates with people when:
1) You're working with hundreds of other developers
2) Your dev tools are slow and inefficient
3) You have to work within the limitations of characters, settings, mechanics, and villains that are created by other people
4) You have very specific time and dialogue constraints
5) You need to write something impactful, yet pithy enough that it can be played over and over again without players getting bored
6) You have to crunch
7) You have to deal with the bazillion other moving parts and variables that make up game development

I'm sure that sometimes bad storytelling is the product of poor imagination and a lack of talent, but usually, video game writers have to deal with impossible circumstances.

Those are real issues with many big budget games, but the bigger issue with Destiny is that the basic framework of its story and design was ill-conceived from the minute they started developing the game (at least in the form it ended up shipping as).
They set out to make a game meant to be played over and over again, but designed and wrote it like a single playthrough linear campaign. They haven't even tried writing material that fits the way the game plays. Every mission in Destiny, which you're going to be replaying ad infinitum is a one of a kind event, the only chance to do this, the last hope of mankind. It just doesn't work on the most basic level.

 

[Renekton]

I never said it's on the writers specifically, but the final product was bad on release and even two years later, continues to be almost just as bad when Fillion isn't carrying the show. Whether it's the day to day talent, management, overall work structure, or some combination, it doesn't change the fact that they have put out nothing of quality from the story perspective even given their significant budget and manpower. Yeah, we all know video games are challenging, sometimes impossibly difficult products to make, but in the end, they're still products and Bungie has managed to pump out damn near $200 of "enh, I don't know, go shoot some space demons or something." No one should be satisfied with that.

Well you have full right to narrow your discussion scope to purely consumer experience, good or bad product.

However this thread is about glimpses of the innerworkings of a large AAA project team, so we are interested about their design/build process.

 

[GobFather]

I love destiny's lore and gameplay... they just need to execute it with better content

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

The paid expansions killed a lot of interest in the game, so if they're smart, they'd switch to a games as service model and just add Overwatch-style loot boxes. People already buy lots of Destiny cosmetics, so the transition shouldn't be that awkward to move to that full time, so if they just keep the story going so that everyone has a reason to log in once a month, that should be enough to get people to stay engaged.

Bungie isn't creating simple maps they can give away for free. Destiny is on a whole different level than Overwatch.

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

My understanding is that after Destiny 1, Bungie put together a "story team" that was led by a director and producer...

Well, better late than never, I suppose.

 

[Dalek]

If Destiny 2 is being built on a new engine, how difficult would it be for Bungie to reuse assets from Destiny 1? Would they have to build the game from the ground up?

On a side note: Fuck narrative. No one will be coming back to Destiny month after month because they added some cutscenes to their Live updates.

Is it confirmed they are using anew engine? The report Jason did detailing how unwieldy the first one was blew my mind. Moving a rock takes overnight to render?

 

[Vanadium]

I think if you were to start playing Destiny right now, with some exception on the earlier raids and some rusty PvP, there's a lot of stuff to do. Two years on and the game feels like a full package.

Bungie is in many ways probably a very different company than the one it was when Destiny was released. Hopefully this works out for the better instead of worse.

 

[josecitoxnyo]

If Destiny 2 is being built on a new engine, how difficult would it be for Bungie to reuse assets from Destiny 1? Would they have to build the game from the ground up?

On a side note: Fuck narrative. No one will be coming back to Destiny month after month because they added some cutscenes to their Live updates.

That's incorrect, people like me hated the lack of structure of year 1 and came back when TTK launched, that DLC added exactly that, a minimal structure to every single part of the game including the story.

I would'nt comeback month after month solely for that, but i would love to get them to keep the world/story/lore alive and relevant.

Look at it this way, no person who has invested time in understanding or even get a minimal knowledge of the lore has regreted their time, they just keep wondering WHY Bungie does'nt do it justice properly.

 

[ZeezbruhTV]

Is it confirmed they are using anew engine? The report Jason did detailing how unwieldy the first one was blew my mind. Moving a rock takes overnight to render?

Probably same engine but overhauled

 

[Kalamari]

The more small narrative updates, the more opportunities to introduce fresh microtransactions.

 

[Obliterator]

Probably same engine but overhauled

Yeah a full new engine is pretty unrealistic I would imagine as it would take a ton of time and cost a fortune. Likely they've just overhauled their toolsets

 

[GhaleonEB]

That Bungie is working on their sustaining model for D2 this early is a good sign. Hopefully it can avoid the swerves that Destiny went through.

 

[Renekton]

Yeah a full new engine is pretty unrealistic I would imagine as it would take a ton of time and cost a fortune. Likely they've just overhauled their toolsets

I remember DICE devs mentioned the biggest improvements for later Frostbite were fixing the "flaky" pipeline and workflow where getting anything setup takes ages. So it is not a problem unique to Bungie. I can safely project that they can change those without scrapping the engine.

 

[daffy]

1000 people.... this shit better change my life tbh

 

[Thursday War]

That Bungie is working on their sustaining model for D2 this early is a good sign. Hopefully it can avoid the swerves that Destiny went through.

I just hope that with all of this narrative department hiring doesn't mean that the story has gone to shit or there is no story at all. the last time the narrative department had less than a year to write the story we got destiny 1's lackluster narrative. I'll give it to bungie tho for being able to recognize that and slightly but surely improve upon their narrative with the consecutive expansions. I'm really looking forward to d2 and I'll be disappointed if it ends up like d1.

 

[SaganIsGOAT]

So did they fix the terrible toolset that got leaked where loading a map to make a small adjustment took like 8 hours then would crash lol

 

[ElBoxyBrown]

So did they fix the terrible toolset that got leaked where loading a map to make a small adjustment took like 8 hours then would crash lol

Nothing got fixed. Bungie is just starting over with new tools to make Destiny 2.

I just hope that with all of this narrative department hiring doesn't mean that the story has gone to shit or there is no story at all. the last time the narrative department had less than a year to write the story we got destiny 1's lackluster narrative. I'll give it to bungie tho for being able to recognize that and slightly but surely improve upon their narrative with the consecutive expansions. I'm really looking forward to d2 and I'll be disappointed if it ends up like d1.

On the contrary id had less than 6 months to come up with a narrative for Doom and they came out fine. It's possible.

 

[firehawk12]

Bungie isn't creating simple maps they can give away for free. Destiny is on a whole different level than Overwatch.

People aren't going to be playing for new maps, but for new drops. Heck, they already did that with Xur and stuff like Iron Banner and Nightfalls - it's just a question of having repeatable end game content that can refresh on a constant basis.

Asking people to essentially pay 40 bucks every few months for a raid and a couple of new strikes is just too much to ask given how other games are slowly just shifting away from that maps for money model.

 

[Harmondale]

Why is so many destiny fans waiting for destiny 2, would not that mean the end of destiny 1 and all your progress?

Saw destiny complete package was cheap at psn, not sure If I want to pick it up If a new game comes in a year? Is destiny unplayable without ps plus?

 

[sturgboski]

That's incorrect, people like me hated the lack of structure of year 1 and came back when TTK launched, that DLC added exactly that, a minimal structure to every single part of the game including the story.

I would'nt comeback month after month solely for that, but i would love to get them to keep the world/story/lore alive and relevant.

Look at it this way, no person who has invested time in understanding or even get a minimal knowledge of the lore has regreted their time, they just keep wondering WHY Bungie does'nt do it justice properly.

It would be interesting if they cribbed the Living World thing from Guild Wars 2, wherein a new set of story content comes out every month or so. I am not sure how long each episode takes in Guild Wars 2 (yes yes, I just started Season 2 after finally finishing the "personal story" and season 1 recap so I am way behind), but they were substantial enough and moved the plot forward. Further, Bungie can employ the same concept that Arenanet did: log in during the first X weeks the episode is live and you get it free for your account, miss it and buy the episode later (or a season bundle). This way they can put out content monthly bridging from one major release to another. Sprinkle in there some new PVP maps and some strikes (like the current "April Update" cycle) and that should keep players around.

Honestly, I was also thinking of just a cheap way to add story that they could even do now. We currently have the whole quest structure in place that Bungie can tap for narrative dump purposes. Every few weeks put in a multistep quest that involves replaying existing content (they love that) but throughout the quest have narrative hooks. Perhaps these quests can build on each other and hint at something to be paid off in a more substantive content piece (ie an April update or a paid expansion). End of each quest give out like legendary marks and the like. Maybe every other quest rewards an emblem? Again, this option is basically the most cost effective since its just "reuse existing content and functionality" and the main costs being story/narrative, setting up the chain and then the emblem. Basically think all the new quests that came with The Dawning, specifically the new exotic -lords.

I am hoping the "Living Worlds" model is used in Destiny 2, but I see the value of the quest structure in current Destiny and even continuing as a parallel to the "Living Worlds" in Destiny 2. The quests would be a simple, cost effective way to hint at what is to come in Destiny 2 in order to whet Destiny 1 owner's appetites.

 

[firehawk12]

Why is so many destiny fans waiting for destiny 2, would not that mean the end of destiny 1 and all your progress?

Saw destiny complete package was cheap at psn, not sure If I want to pick it up If a new game comes in a year? Is destiny unplayable without ps plus?

The heart of the game is mulitplayer stuff, unless for some reason you just want to grind through the story content, so you need to play online (and in particular, do the raids).

I think Kotaku or someone ran a story that basically said Destiny 2 would be a fresh start, so yeah, I assume your "Guardian" will be retired when the second game comes out.

 

[Trace]

Why is so many destiny fans waiting for destiny 2, would not that mean the end of destiny 1 and all your progress?

Saw destiny complete package was cheap at psn, not sure If I want to pick it up If a new game comes in a year? Is destiny unplayable without ps plus?

The fun is the act of getting new gear, once you "have it all" it's not fun anymore.

 

[Thursday War]

Nothing got fixed. Bungie is just starting over with new tools to make Destiny 2.

On the contrary id had less than 6 months to come up with a narrative for Doom and they came out fine. It's possible.

yeah i'm not saying i'm not optimistic, i totally am. i'm just wondering how all this will turn out in the end come fall 2017 release

 

[renzolama]

Personally, Destiny became boring and generic after Y1 for me when they nerfed/antiquated all the exciting and game-changing exotics and legendaries in the interest of PVE balance. The percentage of rare gear that actually makes a significant impact on gameplay is very low now. I realize why Bungie did it, and it makes sense for the purposes of PVP balance and population activity inclusion, but it killed the "gotta get the best gear!" motivation that propelled me through a thousand hours of play in Y1 looking for the Icebreaker/Gjally/Fatebringer/etc. I have 90% of the desirable exotics/legendaries from post Y1, and the vast majority of them have perks that are so generic and boring (use less ammo!, get a free useless skill!, etc) that they're not even worth swapping out for. The gunplay is still fantastic and arguably best-in-class across console shooters, but the bigger reward loop feels meaningless now because the grind/rng rewards don't significantly alter the gameplay in a way that makes them feel worth the effort.

That's just my take obviously, and people continue to love the hell out of the game so I suspect my feelings are in the minority. I'm still excited about the possibility of a PC release for Destiny 2 and thus watching the 2017 release news eagerly, but if they continue to go in the direction of making the gear more generic and "balanced" then I'm not sure that what remains will be interesting enough to keep my attention over other competent shooters.

Edit: Sorry, this might be irrelevant to your point about the update content in Destiny 2, and I don't mean to derail the conversation into an argument about the current state of Destiny. I got a bit overexcited to see an actual discussion about Destiny (the OT is mostly dead now) and started dumping my concerns about its future without necessarily thinking about the context.

 

[Nicko]

Press Sneak Jason, thanks for chiming in here as always. Working on any new Destiny articles?? I'm just so starved for anything Destiny that news is my best outlet right now 😁

 

[Orochinagis]

I hope it doesnt mean pointless grind for cosmetics like the "free" dlc we got

 

[Acidote]

ActiBlizz, besides CoD, is resting way too much in Blizzard's shoulders, and with no expected release from Blizzard in 2017 (unless the smaller games team they formed has secretly done something) there's no way they're letting Bungie publish D2 beyond late 2017. They're gonna NEED something.

 

[Moa]

Why is so many destiny fans waiting for destiny 2, would not that mean the end of destiny 1 and all your progress?

Saw destiny complete package was cheap at psn, not sure If I want to pick it up If a new game comes in a year? Is destiny unplayable without ps plus?

I couldn't give a shit about my progress from Destiny 1 except for a few things like emblems and possibly shaders. Give me something to show I played Destiny 1 and lets get the ball rolling on Destiny 2. I was already bored of using the same few guns after Year 1 to the point that I stopped using Fatebringer, VoC and Gjallarhorn before TTK came out. I'm pretty close to that point now partway through Year 3.

If it means the gameplay is better by all means scrap my shit.

 

[Compsiox]

Do we know if they're using a new version of the engine yet? I remember that they had to render overnight if they wanted to add something to the game.

 

[Renekton]

Do we know if they're using a new version of the engine yet? I remember that they had to render overnight if they wanted to add something to the game.

Shinobi said they were running on new engine.

 

[Ambitious]

The more small narrative updates, the more opportunities to introduce fresh microtransactions.

Ding ding ding.

 

[GlamFM]

All of this does not sound like a game that will be out in 2017.

 

[KeRaSh]

All of this does not sound like a game that will be out this year.

It definitely won't be out this year.
I really hope it releases in 2017, though! Loved D1 and I'm ready for more!

 

[GlamFM]

It definitely won't be out this year.
I really hope it releases in 2017, though! Loved D1 and I'm ready for more!

 

[Embearded]

They should hire Dr. Ford....

 

[Laurel_McFang]

Yeah actually after I posted that, I read the listings in depth and noticed something. The Head of Narrative is not the main writer, but a producer position for running this department lol. The Senior Narrative Producer position is also a management position. So it's possible the leads now will just transit to Lead Narrative Director roles without requiring them to handle management and production roles they might not be suited for?



Huh. Interesting.

one possibility that hasn't been considered is that these jobs have already been filled internally, but Bungie has to advertise them for legal reasons like a contract with Activision that requires Activision companies to post job openings so other Activision employees can potentially take them or at least requires that some external candidate is interviewed in order to try to keep competition more fierce etc. Senior Narraitve Designer might just be someone lower down the chain moving up.

 

[Ooccoo]

Destiny was a scam IMO, worst $120 spent on false promises and empty world (talking about launch). Multiplayer was fine but the rest was not enough.

 

[Carn82]

Shinobi said they were running on new engine.

I doubt that it's completely new. They were pretty happy with the Tiger engine and acknowledged early on that the pipeline and iteration time didn't end up as planned. There is a pretty informative GDC talk about it.

 

[irrotational]

Jason - thanks for posting in the thread!

I can't believe Bungie have had another falling out and crisis 18 months from release!

Does this happen at every studio or is it because Bungie are trying to build this weird FPS MMO hybrid!?

You're list of challenges is excellent but one of them seems very fixable. Make story cut scenes toggleable. Everyone can watch them the first time and have a fun campaign romp, then toggle them off and get on with the grinding. Same with strikes and raids really.

Where there is a fireteam you need one option for all. If it is a pre-made team I would prioritise the off toggle and enforce that on all. If it is a match made team I would use the toggle in the matchmaking if possible to find all "ons" or all "offs" , that should be easy early on in the life cycle. Later on most people should be using the off position, so I would choose that as the default for mixed groups.

 

[Marvel]

Damn can't wait to see it.

 

[Hyun Sai]

Honestly guy I don't think wishing a 2017 release is a good idea.

Fall 2018 seems like what they need to make it...

 

[Nydius]

Why is so many destiny fans waiting for destiny 2, would not that mean the end of destiny 1 and all your progress?

Because being a day one player, I'm already bored to tears with what's on offer. Honestly, people jumped for joy over the news of the latest update that put a 27 month old strike - Nexus - back in rotation. Personally, I just shrugged. Already played the crap out of Nexus, tossing in more recycled enemy models doesn't do anything for me (plus, it should have never been removed from the rotation in the first place). Ditto with the new strike scoring nonsense which doesn't change the fact that it's still the same tired strikes we've been running forever.

Xur no longer holds any meaning, PvP is just broken beyond belief, the loot system stopped being rewarding about a week after Wrath of the Machine Heroic Mode went live (not that the raid itself was all that special in the first place). Some players are begging for the year 1 raids to be made relevant again but, again, I'm not sure how much that will matter to me. I played Vault of Glass and Crota's End when they were both new and relevant so I can't see myself going back to grinding two year old content on a weekly basis.

Like others, I honestly don't care if I lose everything I have right now. I've used all of these exotic weapons and armor pieces to the point where there's nothing special about them anymore. As much as I love my Zhalo Supercell, it's time for new gear, new experiences, and, yes, a new narrative. Let me carry over my shaders and emblems and I'm good to go.

Saw destiny complete package was cheap at psn, not sure If I want to pick it up If a new game comes in a year? Is destiny unplayable without ps plus?

It's a no-go without Plus or XBL Gold. Assuming they stick to the same September schedule (and assuming they can get Destiny 2 finished by then), you'd have at least 9.5 months to play through Destiny 1 now - which is more than enough time to experience all of the current content AND go back and try out some of the year 1 and year 2 stuff that's been left to rot (though they might rehash it later, if rumors are any indication). You could easily get your money's worth out of it should you decide to pick up the complete edition now. I understand not wanting to buy it if a new game is coming out but if they completely ditch everything when transitioning from D1 to D2, it won't matter all that much whether you put 9 months, a year, or 3 years into it.