flyinpiranha
Member
I could see it from a VERY uneducated consumer standpoint, but once we knew all the details, it wasn't. It wasn't even close.
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Jesse Schell: Listening to customers was Microsoft's big mistake
- Thread starter shinobi602
- Start date
I could see it from a VERY uneducated consumer standpoint, but once we knew all the details, it wasn't. It wasn't even close.
Wishmaster92
Member
Pretty much this.
Are many casual buyers or costumers outside of the male 15-25 demographic really buying a 399€ console instead of a new iPhone to only play games, which they.in there opinion, could also be played on the go? Indie and mobile/social-games still have two different kind of audiences. PS+ needs a monthly fee and still has to work with the games, which are released on the platform. The Wii and Kinect got a very unique selling point on the other hand. I don't see the magical pixie dust, who makes the console fly into heart of the casual audience.
MR BLACKMAGIK
Member
I'm sick of all these journalist writing articles about, "It's inevitable!", "Digital future is coming!", "Microsoft had something amazing and we ruined it!". Every week I swear I read an article that is basically one of these three things just worded differently. The reality is most people who own an Xbox 360 now, like the way things are run. Sure the price of XBL could be cheaper, sure things like Netflix and multiplayer could be free to everyone, but those are minor complaints for most. Microsoft wanted to install a completely new system with no regards to people who actually liked the way things were and didn't want a change.
I fail to believe most of the people who write these articles play more than 10 games a year. It's easy to say a digital future is the best outcome when you A: Don't play many games, B: Have a lot of disposable income, and C: Get free copies of games because your a fucking game journalist!
I fail to believe most of the people who write these articles play more than 10 games a year. It's easy to say a digital future is the best outcome when you A: Don't play many games, B: Have a lot of disposable income, and C: Get free copies of games because your a fucking game journalist!
If there is, indeed, a huge community of "hardcore" dying...just DYING to embrace Microsoft's vision of a digital future, then it would be very easy to offer this... alongside a more conventional offering.
Imagine the original One proposal was only a SKU, with an identically priced '360 plus' SKU with similar policies to the current console, with the new hardware etc. Would you have a majority of customers giving up resell ability for the purported benefits?
According to Jesse Schell this would have been a massive relative success. I just don't see it.
Imagine the original One proposal was only a SKU, with an identically priced '360 plus' SKU with similar policies to the current console, with the new hardware etc. Would you have a majority of customers giving up resell ability for the purported benefits?
According to Jesse Schell this would have been a massive relative success. I just don't see it.
dragonelite
Member
You still had physical stores to compete with because the disk were nothing more then license and data holders.
So you bought either the cheapest version be it from the xbox live store or from some online web shop that will ship you the physical copy. And both would act as the digital version because the license was tied to your account. So the digital store had to compete with gamestop, amazon and others. The last few xbl sales where pretty good not steam sales good tbh.
After linking the game you could throw away the disks and theres a bigger chance that later on X1 and ps4 will be emulated because of the generic hardware both console are using.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
There was competition for X1 as well. Best Buy, Gamestop, Wal-Mart, Target, all of these stores could sell their games cheaper just like Amazon for Steam. The "there was no competition like with Steam!" thing isn't true. It's not like you could only buy X1 games off of Xbox Live, you could buy them anywhere, just like Steam and its 'competition'.
Ugh
100% agree with the article. I would have been happy if they just dropped the 24-hour check in, even if that meant losing reselling. There's the PS4 if you want the same thing, but more powerful. I have no issue with them saying this is a digital box and gone all-in. The whole 24-hr check-in debacle was the killer, and that was mostly because they tried to straddle the line.
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
Another industry shithead upset that Microsoft isn't going to be screwng consumers over.
By all means BE STEAM! You have digital games on demand, so BE STEAM! Let's see the super cheap sales on games! Show us how great digital downloads are on consoles. Put your money where your mouth is or shut the fuck up.
By all means BE STEAM! You have digital games on demand, so BE STEAM! Let's see the super cheap sales on games! Show us how great digital downloads are on consoles. Put your money where your mouth is or shut the fuck up.
Neuromancer
Member
'The customer is always right.'
Yeah and it worked 2 of 3 times and had nothing to do with consumer rights.
So what do you use steam on? Your fingers? You need some kind of computer that cost money which can cost between $300 to $1000+. XBONE is always $500.
It is more Live $60 vs Steam $0
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
So why aren't these stores already competing with digital download sales? They've BEEN offering customers the ability to purchase downloads, so where are the deals? How many digital games sales have we seen? Zero.
This argument might work if digital downloads were some new feature for consoles, but they're not. We 'have had them available for years now, and the proof is there. The digital version sits around at the premium price, while the physical products get marked down.
I'm supposed to believe that Microsoft is suddenly going to handle digital downloads differently, because it's a new system? I'm supposed to trust Microsoft? Yeah right!
Remember that large wave of vital marketers Microsoft sent to gaf, tech blogs and various other places on the Internet? Remember how they all got banned? Those guys used the steam comparison immediately. So the comparison comes from Microsofts marketing people.
Dark Octave
Banned
This is true. I hear this all the time with the "it's not my problem" (if a company complains about not meeting profit or has a random hiccup) comments and they're right, it's not their problem.
The leaked insider rumor suggested that MS actually wanted to go towards Steam direction and that they were just really bad at putting the message out there.
Apparently a large number of game journalists, developers, and publishers live in a massive bubble world. You can see the bubble world on GAF, too, but I think the posters usually have some awareness of the outside world. Anyway, inside the bubble world, there is no outside world. But why would you ever want to go outside? You have tons of disposable income to spend on all the latest tech gadgets - the newest cell phone, the newest console, the newest tablet, the newest television. Of course, all your devices are connected and accessible via the giant broadband pipe that your house is built right on top of.
The folks in the bubble have no idea that conditions may not be similar in the rest of the world. And then when the rest of the world complains about their always-on devices, what do the bubble people do? Why, insult the "Luddites," of course!
Either way, steam is free, Xbox Live is not.
People screamed that they didn't want a digital console. So now it's not possible to see if they could. You can't yell at them for not being Steam if you never gave them a chance to be.
ParenegadeM
Banned
You need an expensive computer which costs upwards of 600 dollars to get the most out of it.
And that computer probably runs Windows which costs like 100 bucks anyway.
In other words you're full of it.
soul creator
Member
Yeah, there were plenty of other things to be wary of with the Xbox One's initial plans (and I think they ultimately made the right decision in the end to stick with traditional policies), but the "no competition!" criticism I never understood.
The Xbox One would also have to compete with, well, the entire rest of the gaming industry that people spend time and money on. The Xbox One doesn't exist in a vacuum, so there still would've been plenty of competition.
Oddly enough, I think what sunk them the most is primarily the 24hr check...which was likely only needed to support disc resale. Tried to have it both ways (support resale like traditional console games, and support digital licenses from a disc like physical Steam games), but it ended up not pleasing anyone. If they just picked one, it wouldn't have been as damaging, I think.
No the common practice was a CD key that was asked offline during the installation and the disc had to be in the disc drive to play. Neither was the CD key used up during that process nor tied to an account nor was any internet connection required. As a result used games were possible and ebay full of them, rentals as well. (although rentals were apparently not in every country very common).
So it indeed took away rights and customers were rightfully angry about it.
Where steam was an improvement was years later, when online-DRM became more and more the standard and publishers started with nonsense like limited activations, there was steam's DRM the lesser evil. And when in some countries PC retail was shrinking, steam helped to keep it strong. Plus of cause the amazing sales. So in the end steam brought improvements to PC gaming but it started with taking rights away.
(that just as a side note, not in defence of the horrible Xbox 1 plans)
Interfectum
Member
Because "Games on Demand" on 360 is an after thought. Their bread and butter on 360 has been retail sales. These new consoles are far more poised to take advantage of digital content and between the time of the 360 launch and now people are far, far more open to purchasing digital content.
You don't have to trust MS that prices will come down... the market will force the prices down. Hell I expect most of the launch titles for both systems to be $30-40 a couple months after launch as the market for $60 games is crumbling.
Steam is still free though and Live will cost you, only people full of it are console gamers who have to justify their sub to even use the online part of their games.
I expect more from people who came from the same uni I did. =/
The new XBL was going to be similar to Steam, but in key ways it was completely different.
His point though that gamers don't want revolutionary things from top creators now still stands. All the new games coming out are evolutionary, if only because most gamers waiting for the sequel don't want to start at the bottom of the learning curve again.
The new XBL was going to be similar to Steam, but in key ways it was completely different.
His point though that gamers don't want revolutionary things from top creators now still stands. All the new games coming out are evolutionary, if only because most gamers waiting for the sequel don't want to start at the bottom of the learning curve again.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
I'm utterly confused by your post. Are you saying Wal-Mart, Best Buy, Gamestop, Amazon, and Target don't have deals for physical copies of games? Can you rephrase?
My point is this:
"Steam is open and has competition with other services, while Xbox has zero competition!!!" is bunk. X1's digital store would have had just as much if not more competition than Steam. All of those physical stores + Amazon would be competing for deals- they would be competition.
Seriously. Just spending a solid 30 seconds thinking about it and it's easy to come to this conclusion. No idea where the no competition thing came from.
I just don't understand how people can say that listening to customers is s mistake. If you come out with a product and it faces immediate backlash, and your competition is using that to its advantage it makes the most sense to do the turnaround that Microsoft has done.
The mistake was that Microsoft didn't really think to make digital policies that gave a real benefit to customers. The whole thing was a profit deal for Microsoft and the publishers with no real benefits for customers. People saw it for what it was. Those saying that progress is being held back because of a few vocal gamers are being really gullible. In the end, Microsoft will still try to come up with an all digital platform, but this time they will know better and come up with some policies that most gamers would support.
The mistake was that Microsoft didn't really think to make digital policies that gave a real benefit to customers. The whole thing was a profit deal for Microsoft and the publishers with no real benefits for customers. People saw it for what it was. Those saying that progress is being held back because of a few vocal gamers are being really gullible. In the end, Microsoft will still try to come up with an all digital platform, but this time they will know better and come up with some policies that most gamers would support.
But there is more competition right now on the Xbox 360 with retail and used games, and Microsoft still charges ridiculous prices for digital. The supposedly unbearable pressure placed on the industry by the scourge of used games hasn't done anything to make XBL prices respond. With used games basically going away on the Xbone and retail selling you a disc that was simply a vehicle for a digital copy, there would have been even less competition than there is today and the whole proposition was being made worse for the consumer with nothing in return... unless you were really, really married to the idea of never having to swap a disc.
Best Buy, Gamestop, Wal-Mart, Target and Amazon don't sell digital download games for the Xbox 360, why would they sell it for Xbox One?
Keep in mind none of us are talking about physical copies. Xbox Live as a service sells digital games, and so does Steam. As competition, there are no other digital game services that sell games running on an Xbox.
thecosmicfly
Banned
Still have yet to see anyone describe a single exclusive benefit that the DRM ridden shitfest Microsoft was pitching the Xbox One as. Stuff like the family sharing plan or selling games does not count either, as that's still perfectly achievable with digital downloads. I've not seen a single person or journalist be able to sell me on the 24-hour/1-hour online check, eliminating used/sharing games, destroying businesses, forced installs etc. without their best response being "Doesn't affect me" (AKA fuck you, got mine) or defending the messaging as muddled or Microsoft not having time to share their overall grand vision to us plebians. Again, the key word here is benefit. Benefit. Why is that literally the hardest thing for some to understand when people bring up their dislike for the old policies, or the obnoxious comparisons to Steam?
Barack Lesnar
Banned
Xbox One games still would have been sold in stores. Where did you get the idea that they wouldn't? Is that where this is coming from? Whether it be a traditional physical copy with a game case + disc, or a game case + digital card voucher, they would've still been in stores. MS only selling their games on their Xbox Live store would have instantly killed the brand.
Impeccable
Member
If Microsoft's plan was right then I am happy to be 'wrong'.
Interfectum
Member
Before the 180, there was barely any difference between physical and digital copies on XB1. You bought the game at Best Buy, installed it, entered the code and you could toss the disc in the garbage (just like a Steamworks game).
So yeah Amazon, Wal-Mart, etc would be competing with Xbox Live marketplace on pricing.
MR BLACKMAGIK
Member
Exactly. It really bugs me that so many industry leaders think this way.
soul creator
Member
My recollection was that we had the horrible DRM by the time of HL2. But I could be wrong.
This is why people in the media get called shills by gamers, they say things so incredibly stupid that it's hard to believe they don't know any better and are not just trying to get better connections with a publisher.
SmokedMeat
Gamer™
People screamed they wanted a choice. They wanted physical media to remain as it's always been, not placed under full control of Microsoft.
So you're telling me that despite offering digital downloads they suddenly can't be like Steam because they're not controlling our physical purchases? This makes no sense. Want to be like Steam? Then be Steam, and put on all of these great digital sales.
The way I see it, it was never going to happen. Microsoft was never going to have Steam like sales ever. It's all a bunch of hot air, and you'll see it when Xbone launches.
ParenegadeM
Banned
Yes Live costs me 40 bucks a year MAYBE. But unlike Steam which is just a platform for games Xbox is an ecosystem. They make tons more exclusives than Valve they make new hardware they bring apps to Xbox. HBO Go is STILL exclusive to Xbox. I guarantee XBL money plays a part in that.
I'm fine with paying for XBL or PSN. Its an investment in the device and the ecosystem.
A PC gamer might not realize that since you can just open a web browser or download any program.
WrenchNinja
Member
I don't know how DRM defenders continue to be this delusional.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
It doesn't matter if their Xbox online service had Steam-like sales or not because there's tons of other places you could buy the games. Wal-Mart, Targ...no need to list them again, you get the point.
This is the long and the short of it. People trust Valve with DD, and Valve has worked hard to build and maintain that trust. People do not trust Microsoft with it and there's plenty of valid reasons for that.
ParenegadeM
Banned
What about the Feb and Summer sales we saw THIS YEAR? Are those not good enough for you? I bought more during those sales than Steams Summer Sale. People complain about lack of sales but that's because they're ignoring them.
More importantly Steam didn't have amazing sales from day 1. XB1 never got that chance.
BRocknRolla
Member
The 180 will give people something to bitch about forever. "MS was ready to offer you the world. Cheap digital games, unlimited technological power, even more rights and content to your games than Steam, the ability to share whole games and your whole game library with 10 people at no extra cost, and weekly sponge baths in milk and honey! There were no catches! And you a ruined it!" Keep dreaming dreamers. Someday your benevolent corporate overlords will spirit you away from this awful consumer oriented world.